Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Why would a god need to create suffering to make himself feel "glorious"? That would represent a rather sick god.
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If God exists, why does He allow suffering?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Why would a god need to create suffering to make himself feel "glorious"? That would represent a rather sick god.
PureX
Veteran Member
We all have the ability to perceive 'spirit'. It's why we have the term.
What do "other worldly realms" have to do with detecting spirits? Go to any museum or art gallery and you will see the "spirits" of artists not physically present, all around you. Read a book, listen to some music, go see a play: these embody and reveal all kinds of spirits with all sorts of perspectives and messages to share with you. You define "spirit" in such a way that it can't exist, or be detected, and then you proclaim their non-existence? What kind of foolishness is that (if not pointlessly biased)?
But you've made sure that can't happen in advance by defining what you demand proof of out of existence; "I demand objective physical proof of that which is neither objective nor physical".
There's nothing honest about it.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
So advocating for things you can't possibly have even a shred of certainty about (let alone "know" - remember, you're the one who is spouting off solipsistic ideas about our inability to know anything for sure) is the more honest position in your estimation, is it? There is obviously no point in continuing this conversation.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
It might be simplistic, but it's a way to explain evil and suffering without totally blaming the supposed All-Knowing, All-Loving God. God made everything perfect (except Satan), then Satan rebelled and took one third of the angels with him. And God didn't see this coming? And God didn't destroy them right then?
God creates a paradise for Adam and Eve and puts a tree with forbidden fruit on it and expected them not to eat it? No, of course God knew. And then God uses their breaking of his command to curse the Earth and everything in it. Thus explaining death, disease, evil and all suffering.
But Adrian, you're a doctor... isn't there a battle between "good" and "evil" kind of happening in the micro worlds of viruses and bacteria? I don't know, but isn't it kind of random on when and on whom a disease strikes? Do you really need God to explain it? Except maybe as the creator of it. But then why would a loving creator invent such a plan?
Then there's the battle that people and animals fight. Some animals have to kill to other animals to eat. What a bloody mess that is. Some people chop animals to pieces so they can eat. Some animals fight each other over territory and mating rights. So do some people. People need things. Some people make things. Some people steal things. Some people try and help others. Some people try and take advantage of others. And some people don't mind hurting and killing others to get what they want. Some people are given authority to go out and hurt and kill those people that want to hurt and kill people.
Then there is religion. Religion, at it best says, we should all be kind and love one another. But what is the best religious explanation for this good/evil world we see around us? An evil god vs. an good and loving God isn't too bad. But why put humanity through all the torturous grief? Just do away with the evil god. Then one God? That's worse. God created these things just to put people through tests? Kids dying for diseases and starvation? People being cut up, shot up and blown to bits? And then God promises that in the next life things will be better? Why will it be better? No more needs? No more desires? Then if those were the problems, why did God created a world with those things and expect people not to fight and argue over them?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
This is a fairly dismal view of humanity, and one that is patently entitled and unhelpful.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Basically God doesnt "allow" you to suffer, its more like you won't stop being angry and you and everyone are just to biggoted to feel pleasure. Your own feelings are a result of your own actions. Shut up and be happy. 
Please bear with me as I endeavor to explain something that I believe is important, but overlooked....
The one thing that most people do not understand is that God “acted” only once. He “created” the universe and selected one planet to prepare for habitation by mortal creatures. He accomplished this in 6 creative periods that were not just 24 hour days, but lengthy eras where the Creator accomplished all that he set himself to do within each allotted period.
As a timeless being, he was not restricted by earth's 24 hour days. Geological science tells us that the earth is very ancient, and so are many of the creatures that were in existence before the creation of humans. Each "day" was concluded with a declaration of God’s satisfaction with what he had created thus far....there were no defects in any of them. In fact, the 6th day (when most of the animate forms of life were created) was described as better than all the rest. It was a perfect start to what God had begun.
The Genesis account says that God rested on the 7th day....but why would a being of infinite power need to do that? He wasn’t tired because the Bible describes him as pure dynamic energy......so what was the 7th day for?
What the 7th day was set aside for, was to set the parameters of the exercise of free will, which was given only to his human creation. Giving intelligent creatures free will was a risk, but because they were appointed to be custodians of all that God had created, being made in his image meant being his representatives here. Free will would allow them to exercise it.....to make decisions like God himself would do in carrying out their assignment.
Satan was a faithful angel for unknown eons of time before God created the material universe. The book of Job describes the angels as being spectators of creation and applauding his finished product. So because these had never had temptation to step outside of their station, all was well. But when intelligent material creatures were created with the capacity for worship, the angel who became Satan, (who was stationed as a guardian in Eden) began to entertain ambitions to become a god himself.
This ambition was not dismissed and grew into a pre-meditated plan to hijack the human race and become the god he wanted to be. He carefully orchestrated a temptation and targeted the woman in order to divide the loyalties of the man. His plan worked, but what was God going to do about it? Remember that the 7th day was set aside to iron out any and all problems that might arise during that period. God would allow his creatures to exercise their free will and deal with the results....whatever they might be. Nothing was planned in advance except the final outcome.
According to the Bible, we are still in the 7th day, and during this time, God has only “reacted” to the actions of his intelligent creatures...angelic and human. Both were now the subjects of a period of intense testing. Abuse of free will has resulted in all that God said it would....chaos.
All that was foretold to transpire during this period, is about to come to its conclusion. Humanity has “filled the earth” and all who have ever lived have created a record with God about the kind of people they are at heart.
We have reached that point where Christ is about to put an end to the rot, and set up his kingdom over the earth. He said it would be "just like the days of Noah"....and the earth is again, "filled with violence" and immorality is rampant. (Matthew 24:37-39) We even choose these things for our entertainment as if there wasn't enough already in the real world....
With a thousand years still to go, the 7th day will see Jesus and his 'elect' bring redeemed humanity back to God's original purpose....to have a perfect race of intelligent creatures taking care of his precious creation. Then we will hear the declaration that the 7th day was also "very good" in what it accomplished. No angel or human will ever be able to question or challenge God's sovereignty, ever again. Precedents are now set for all time to come and if God has plans for this vast universe that he created, then they can now go ahead unhindered.....I think that this is nothing short of genius! He took the long range view and it worked just as he said it would.
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At the beginning of the 7th day, God allowed all that might happen to happen without his intervention. He just placed one very small test in the garden. Having given them the fruit of every other tree, God claimed this one for himself. It created no hardship whatsoever, and reserved something that belonged exclusively to him. They were to respect what did not belong to them as God had given them so much already. But it was used as a catalyst for a disobedient angel to become "satan" (a resister).
God did not prevent what transpired because the actions of his intelligent children had to be the exercise of their own free will. He would just "react" to what they chose, and keep his original purpose on track. The introduction of sin and death was the consequence of their own choice. No disobedience would have resulted in no penalty. If you don't want to do the time, then don't do the crime. Its not rocket science really. This could have all been avoided but it had to be their choice. They chose with a selfish motive and we are all suffering as a result.
Why? To teach all of his intelligent creation the folly of disobedience. An omniscient God is not to be ignored. Object lessons are not quickly forgotten and intelligent creatures, more often than not, need to experience consequences instead of just hearing about them....but they did have an option. Put the blame where it lies.
None of this had to happen......but God did not prevent them from suffering the foretold outcome of their disobedience. They dragged all their children into this mess with them. God handed the humans over to the god and ruler that they chose.....who left them in no doubt about what he wanted. (Luke 4:5-8)
Nothing in a world ruled by the devil is as it was planned to be in the beginning. Just the opposite, in fact. But how was God going to preserve free will as the gift he intended it to be, if satan and his human slaves were not exposed to what it means to leave God out of their plans? Everything is out of balance....all relationships are in turmoil....humans with other humans...animals with humans ...animals with each other....its all gone south under the devil's administration. But in amongst all that, there was hope, as individuals chose not to serve the devil or obey him. Right down through history, from Abel onward there have been those who would not bow to the devil. The Bible record is a testimony to those ones who could not be bought or coerced into put God down.
This is what the object lesson is for....to reward those who fought to do the right thing when everyone else was going the other way. Noah is a classic example of this. The Bible names many more who will be citizens of God's Kingdom, when the earth is once again cleansed of all wickedness and those who practice it...and restored to its former paradisaic conditions. We all know in our heart of hearts that we were meant to live there.
Ah yes....religion. In his rulership of this earth, the devil uses three prime elements to get people on his side.....politics....commercialism....and religion. All exhibit the same kind of influence in different people. The devil caters to all these human desires....desire for power...wealth...and position. Each of those areas of human endeavor are based on those things. God has never promoted any of them. Jesus was the epitome of humility, kindness and compassion....he was from a poor family because God has never been one to promote wealth or material prosperity as the source of his blessing.
Why do innocent children suffer? Why are humans destroying one another and the planet as well? Its all part of seeing where disobedience to God leads them. God did not cause this situation...humans did...they still are.
At the end of the object lesson God says something very comforting IMO.....
When its all over, and we have the "new heaven and new earth" that was promised to the faithful ones..... (2 Peter 3:13)
Isaiah 65:17 says in prophesy...
“Here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” (Isaiah 65:17)
Nothing that humankind have suffered will be recalled, or will hang around in our memories to haunt us....and those who suffered and lost their lives in time past will be returned to life in the coming resurrection. (John 5:28-29)
The bleak picture of heaven and hell, created by Christendom answers none of the important questions because none of them have promoted the Bible's teachings. They have instead created systems of worship that leave people confused and guessing about the character of a God that they should know....but have never bothered to really understand.
The Bible answers all our questions...we just have to know what it teaches.....that is what my study of the Bible has revealed....
How can we assign moral values to bacteria, viruses or even animals for that matter? They just follow their innate nature. An explanation about good and evil applied to the world of nature is ridiculous. Man on the other hand has free will and the capacity to make and act on moral decisions. A Baha’i narrative sees all the main faiths encouraging man to be the best he can and act morally. They do that using the language, culture and symbols available to inspire and empower. It is only through living the life and having faith that we can best see God’s plan with our own eyes.
I used to believe in reincarnation but I don’t now. I admit its not my culture or what I have been brought up with so I’m not acculturated to think in terms of reincarnation. So I wonder why would a Merciful God have us live another life on earth, especially to come back as an animal? Where is the mercy in that?
I don't think a thread on any of those subjects would get us anywhere....but agreeing to disagree. No point really
I can’t see either of us changing our views in a hurry so I agree.
A thousand years to go for Jesus and his elect to bring “redeemed” humanity to God’s alleged “original purpose” why would Jesus be so slow? If they are redeemed why draw out their suffering for so long?
Well, according to Isaiah 55:11...whatever God starts, he finishes. What he started in Eden was 'interrupted' by three of his intelligent creation abusing their free will. You see we needed to learn how to drive it. Free will can be exercised at our discretion, but abuse begins when our free will impacts negatively on someone else. None of the three had a single thought for anyone but themselves, and we are still living in the results of their actions.
God could have prevented it by starting again...but what was to stop it happening time after time? The only way to settle it was to allow them the freedom to use their own will, in their own way and experience first hand what results. When humans disobey God, nothing good results because human selfishness always gets in the way.
Imagine if everyone lived by the "Golden Rule"....? Would we be experiencing the kinds of trouble we have seen all down through history?
God told his 'children' how to benefit themselves and they no reason NOT to trust his instructions for them, much like children today have to trust their parents to raise them right, so as to become responsible adults. They don't always like or understand the full ramifications of their actions, so to obey them, is wise...it is a protection.
Many human parents don't do a good job, but God was never going to be a lousy parent. He had already told them not to touch that fruit because it was not theirs...it belonged to him. They stole something that caused the death of the entire human race because a con artist lied to them. If you read through Genesis, you will not find a word of remorse from either of them, because they knew that what they did was unforgivable. As perfect specimens, they had no defects, or sinful nature to blame for their disobedience. It was willful and deliberate.
Their second son Abel, was the first human to be pronounced "righteous".....not sinless, but a man whose heart was not devious or selfish.....he offered God the very best he had to thank him for his life....a life that, outside the garden, was difficult. So we are to emulate the attitudes of those whom the Bible holds up as good examples of what God is looking for in us.....those who can learn from the past to adjust their thinking and alter their future.
As to why its taken so long......its only "long" in our counting of time, not in God's. 2 Peter 3:8 says that to God a thousand of our years is just like a "day" to him. So considering that it took 4,000 years for Jesus to arrive....and its been another 2,000 years since he left to take up his post as King of God's Kingdom, its only been 6 days. We have another "day" to go before the blessings of the Kingdom are fully restored. 1,000 years to undo 6,000 years worth of damage is fair enough in my book. God is not a magician after all. He carefully plans his activities and always has the long term benefits in view. This is no time to be impatient....the world is facing crisis after crisis and it will not end well according to Bible prophesy. After an empty pronouncement regarding "peace and Security" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3)....all hell will break loose, creating the greatest tribulation in the world's history. (Matthew 24:21) Its coming...ready or not.
Buckle up...its going to be a bumpy ride, especially for those who have abandoned true worship for the fake ones planted by the devil, or the atheism that he so heavily promotes.
He knows his time is short and he is going to take as many down with him as he can. (Revelation 12:7-12) We don't have to be among them......That is how I see it.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
The Parable of the mustard seed tells us that the kingdom of God is a growing thing. A seed is not a tree yet but in some way it already contains the tree (in its beginning).
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Are we really any smarter than bacteria? Next, God created things that can kill us and make us sick. Prior to modern medicine, how many mothers and how many babies died in child birth. All I'm saying is the way the natural world is, there is a lot of pain and suffering. Christians and others have an evil spirit being to blame for some or most of the bad. Baha'is don't.
Then, this life as a test or we need adversity to grow spiritually. Then, what happens in the next world? The spiritual worlds that Baha'is say come after we leave this world? Is everything perfect, or is there still tests and trials?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Sorry, I blame God. And Baha'is also blame people for rejecting their prophets, so now we all have to go through more suffering to get to a "lessor" peace. That's God's fault. It's like a teacher can make a true/false test, a multiple choice test or an essay test. If the teacher knows that the students aren't ready for the more difficult test, why make them take... knowing they will fail?
When I was age 10 I changed schools. The second day the teacher passed out a test about Pandora's box.
At my former school we were taught nothing about Pandora's box. I did Not know there would a test.
Wanting Not to displease the teacher I took the test, stupidly thinking she would Not grade me on subject I know nothing about.
God did Not force A&E to take a test, they were taught in advance that breaking the law was a capital offence.
I wonder how A&E having free-will choices could mean Not being ready for a test. (Genesis 2:17)
On the other hand, the man Job came to understand the reason for his test, his trials.
Sure, at first Job could have wondered the reason for his trials, his suffering.
Or, even why it was necessary for him to suffer to the extent that he did.
Whatever Job had in his mind Job could reflect on God's view, His counsel. (so could A&E)
This is what helped Job to maintain a proper perceptive of his suffering, and thus find comfort. (Psalm 94:18-22)
So, from Job we can learn about how Job found comfort and hope. (Romans 15:4)
Besides, that there is a lesson in the book of Job for us.
Satan Not only challenges Job but by way of extension includes all of us (Job 2:4-5)
' Touch our flesh...' (loose physical health) and we would Not love God, we would Not serve God.
So, in the BIGGER picture is Not only remaining faithful to God under very difficult circumstances, but appreciating that we can have a part in clearing God's name of reproach as Job and Jesus did.
We progress through the world’s of God beyond this world. Its pretty cool and there will be no bacteria to contend with.
This question largely doesn’t exist in Hinduism because Hinduism doesn’t posit an all powerful creator God who manages the workings of the universe so closely.
What’s unique is the concept of Brahman and existence being both pantheistic and panentheistic simultaneously. The universe is not created, it manifests from Brahman. Rather, it is Brahman... sarvam khalvidam brahma, “all this verily is Brahman”, including us.
The problem of evil and suffering is largely explained by karma. Hinduism is unique among theistic religions - monotheistic and polytheistic - in that the gods or God do not cause suffering or deal out punishment and death. The Wiki article does a good job, imo, of addressing the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil_in_Hinduism?wprov=sfti1
What’s unique is the concept of Brahman and existence being both pantheistic and panentheistic simultaneously. The universe is not created, it manifests from Brahman. Rather, it is Brahman... sarvam khalvidam brahma, “all this verily is Brahman”, including us.
The problem of evil and suffering is largely explained by karma. Hinduism is unique among theistic religions - monotheistic and polytheistic - in that the gods or God do not cause suffering or deal out punishment and death. The Wiki article does a good job, imo, of addressing the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil_in_Hinduism?wprov=sfti1