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If God exists, why does He allow suffering?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
This is true, which is why those of us with that ability sometimes attempt to inform those of us who currently lack the ability. However, as has been discussed (with another poster saying that she felt the urge to "punch the face" of someone who even hinted that there be a question of whether or not their life was possibly in a good state at the moment), many people without the ability get extremely defensive over what they wish to continue to interpret as their suffering at the hands of [insert agent of persecution/masochistic-punishment/damaging-indifference here].
How ironic. If I were to draw a similar analogy, I would have chosen theism. How people believe beyond the complete lack of compelling evidence that there exists some being or force that cares about them, or pushes buttons of cosmic control in the universe. And THAT is what I see as logically baseless. I believe strongly that you can't have arrived at a conclusion evidentially NO BETTER THAN MAKE-BELIEVE without having abandoned logic. In my experience, if people believe in God, they seem to suddenly become unable to deal with reality as it presents itself - and they are then, as you say, helpless to change how they feel. I am atheist in the extreme, and I simply do not have this problem in either sense. I possess tools that allow me to change my mental outlook nearly "at will," and I do not believe things that do not sufficiently present themselves in my reality - including the idea that I am "suffering" to some great degree that I need fret over.
Exactly why someone might try and communicate to someone else that the option exists. However, as stated, this is usually met with hostility.
PureX
Veteran Member
Yes, the 'lesson' of the story of Job is to trust in the benevolence of God even though we don't see it or understand it.
notthedalaidrama
Member
our suffering is the result of our own selfish actions and has nothing to do with the Beloved.
service to self is what leads to suffering.
service to self is what leads to suffering.
PureX
Veteran Member
It is logically baseless. However, it is a reasonable choice in that they gain some real life benefit from the belief. Something an atheist cannot do, because he's negated that possibility in advance, based on nothing.
The problem, of course, is that you think there is something other than "make-believe". You think we humans can actually know things to be so, when in fact, we can only guess and presume them to be so based on our own biased and limited cognitive processes. Logic is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. Reason is ... reasonable enough, but it's just a thought process based on some criteria or goal; usually the criteria of some desired functionality or outcome. Neither of which provide any particular pathway to the truth of things, and neither of which produce any.
Well, you are clearly biased in the extreme.
To the point of believing entirely in the validity of your beliefs. (Same as any religious zealot does.)Yes, I can see that.
PureX
Veteran Member
Not all of it.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
This is completely false. From what I have seen and experienced, and given all my conversations with theists (a great many, I might add) I have my own personal (albeit admittedly anecdotal) evidence that I see great benefits from my outlook on life and my philosophy that these theists are completely ignorant of. They still have all sorts of "Worldly" problems that they go on to say they are "giving to God." What a load of crap. They've got their heads up their butts, and don't even have the wherewithal to realize it. I don't experience the problems they experience. I don't have the issues they take with reality on my mind. Make of it what you will... I honestly couldn't care less if you believe me or not, think I am delusional or arrogant or whatever. I don't have the same problems as so many others, and it isn't because I don't experience many of the same things, believe me.
No. I get the solipsistic view/idea. I do. I just don't give one flying crap about it. I understand fully that I can't know anything with some form of "absolute certainty." You want to use this as an excuse to believe whatever you want... like all theists who present this nonsense. None of it matters. We will ALWAYS be forced to come to terms with THE REALITY WE ARE PRESENTED. Always. Big duh there, my friend.
What can I say? We have mind-based tools to help us understand and cope with the world. And I am pretty darn sure your tool-box doesn't come with a "spirit detector" of any sort. You don't have some "extrasensory" perception that allows you to know, observe, or accurately report on any other-worldly realms. You may want to think you do, but honestly now, if you did, I would also expect your accounts to be much more well-communicated, and be correlated with any other person's accounts who also has this "spirit-detection" sense. Instead you ALL (all theists that is) just trip all over yourselves, and display monumental levels of ignorance and engage in all sorts of tomfoolery to try and explain away questions or make things up to fill in gaps. It's a ****-show of the most egregious sort. Hey - maybe I just have an extrasensory "BS-detector," eh?
And just what is it that I believe, huh? Any ideas? I won't tell you that I believe God doesn't exist, I can tell you that much. I don't know, and won't believe until sufficient demonstration has been made or sufficient evidence has been presented. That's the only honest position to take. Which is how I can trust my instincts that tell me people like you are dishonest. What I do feel I can pretty much rely on is that NONE of you theists have any of the details right. None of you. That's something I DO believe zealously, and it would take quite a bit to convince me otherwise. From what I have seen and read from you, you sure don't have the goods, I'll tell you that much.Well, you are clearly biased in the extreme.
notthedalaidrama
Member
yes it is!
plus we create monsters on a daily basis as a side dish!
we need to be totally honest and accept the due blame.
I try to live from the Heart, I try not to react but respond, and I try to think before I speak!!!
most people are ego driven and that is the problem - self - self - self!
nPeace
Veteran Member
Thanks for clarifying.I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote that. I did not mean that the way it sounds. I meant that God designed this world knowing that people would suffer; I did not mean that God purposefully designed it so that just so people would suffer. Either way though, God is not off the hook, Imo.
OTOH, if God is All-Knowing and All-Wise it is logical to think that this was the best design God could have come up with to achieve what He wanted to achieve for humanity, so suffering was in humanity's best interest. But still, if you were the one suffering you might be singing a different tune. Of course, then people will tell me they have suffered but they were able to rise above it, but they cannot really know the extent of the suffering of other people, the duration or the magnitude, or what resources that person had to cope. Only the person who suffered (and God) can ever know that. All we can do is describe our experiences to other people but nobody can really understand unless they have walked in our moccasins.
According to the Bible, God allowed Adam and Eve to live, and reproduce, knowing that the consequences of Adam's sin would bring pain and suffering, but God did so, on the basis of hope, because he put in place a means of redemption, and release from pain and suffering, forever. There are multiple scripture that bear this out. To mention a few, see Romans 5, 8, Galatians 3, and 1 Corinthians 15
No scripture I know, however, says that God "designed this world knowing that people would suffer".
@Trailblazer I don't understand how "the material world is what causes ALL suffering". What does that mean?
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In the beginning people wanted to know evil. I think that is why people were sent to this first death. This is like Matrix where we can experience what evil truly means. Luckily this is only a short lesson and nothing of this world can destroy soul, which is the important thing. Body can be replaced and it is not even meant to last forever.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
Obviously, this can be a tough lesson. But I think it would be wise to focus on good and to become righteous, because righteous can go back to life.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
In the game of poker there are “good” and “bad” starting hands. And like in that game, in this life person can get bad “hand”. But like in the poker, it is not the hand that matters, but what you do with the hand. Person can lose with the best hand and person can win with the worst hand, if he plays well. That is why I think, no matter what you get, I hope you can do the best with what you have. That is what is valuable in the end.
“It's not the cards that you have all the time that makes you a winner or a loser.”
- Doyle Brunson
If God exists, why does He allow suffering?
If one believes God “allows” something, then one believes God has a choice. Personally, I don’t believe God has a choice in what we do in our living lives. God does have the ability to give us instructions on how we should live our lives. The choice is then ours to make.
Now this is just how I see things
How about you?
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If one believes God “allows” something, then one believes God has a choice. Personally, I don’t believe God has a choice in what we do in our living lives. God does have the ability to give us instructions on how we should live our lives. The choice is then ours to make.
Now this is just how I see things
How about you?
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IMO, the message of Job is "might makes right."
I found at Job 2:4-5 that we can see or understand why God allows suffering, at least for the time being.
Satan Not only challenged Job but by way of extension we are all part of the same challenge.
' Touch our ' flesh....' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved faithful to God, and so can we.
Suffering will end at the soon coming time of Revelation 22:2 when there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations.
Jesus will fulfill God's *promise to father Abraham that ALL families and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed.
Blessed with the benefit of ' healing ' when No one on Earth will say, " I am sick..." - Isaiah 33:24.
( * Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:8 B; Acts of the Apostles 3:25 )
Bird123
Well-Known Member
God does allow suffering in this world. That is an action of God. Perhaps one needs to look beyond the mere surface or the mere hurt to Discover the answers.
How does suffering change people? How many different ways are there? There are probably more ways than I can count given all the different views.
Does any goodness come out of suffering? I would say there is more than one can count especially since our narrow focus is solely on the hurt. Look closely. How much are we missing?
Adversity breeds invention. If there was never adversity, we would all still be cavemen and women. Look at all the technical and medical advances that come out of trouble. Look how many people mankind is now capable of feeding-----ALL OF THEM!!! Aren't smarter people better off than ignorant people? So God does want us smart.
People choose hard lessons for themselves. Actions return to teach us what our choices really mean. For those of us who are watching others learn lessons we have already learned, it is just a reminder of what the best choices really are.
Suffering through empathy can bring out the very best in people. People can teach others that someone does care, that love does exist. Look at all those wonderful volunteers that come out of the woodwork with money and labor when a crisis hits. There are teachers all around us.
Mankind learns many many lessons on the journey to solve problems and work toward resolution.
There are wonderful souls who volunteer to go through great adversity in order to help others grow to Understand. That is many people's sole purpose in this world. They choose willingly before hand.
Is there a limit of pain? Many do not realize that limits exist all around. Did you know after a certain amount of physical pain, the body goes into shock. It no longer hurts so much. Pain is important to let us know something is wrong but God places limits.
WE are all here to learn. God will not allow a person to interfere with the lessons another might be learning. On the other hand, trying to help others, speaks to who we are. Even if you discover you can't help, you define who you are by trying.
There is a Big Beautiful world out there. Most everyone needs help in some way. One might be surprised how easy it can be to help others. Sometimes, love and kindness is all they need to strengthen their reserves and solve their problems at hand. One can point others in the right direction.
People have the power to Choose what they deem important. What would happen if everyone chose to place people above money, power and possessions? Mankind has the ability to fix so much of the suffering in the world today.
One thing I do know. One can complain all they want, however, problems do not go away until they are solved. Knowledge is gained on the journey to solve the problems. Question is: Are we Learning yet?
AS I see it God and mankind have different goals. Our goal is to simply have it made. Is that really God's Goal? I think not. Kiddies seem to always hate to go to school, however everything is so much better after all the lessons are learned.
That is what I am seeing. It's really clear to me.
You have all my Love and Kindness!!
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
I replied before, but thought I would add that God could have kept all evil from us -kept us all from doing evil to each other -managed all circumstances for us -made us nice, safe, happy, etc.
HOWEVER, that would require that we could have little creativity -little understanding -little self-determination -and could not become gods. It would require that we remain relatively ignorant, simple and have most decisions made for us -without the ability to complain or rebel while learning -and that we could not become masters of reality who would one day inherit all things.
We could not be given bodies similar to that which allowed the Word to create all things and subdue all things unto himself -we could not be trusted to create throughout the universe without being micromanaged or without concern that we would make a miserable mess of things.
Early on -when God decided to make man more than man -to make man in the image and likeness of God -the children of God who would inherit all things -God said of sin... "YOU MUST MASTER IT".
It will be worthwhile -even given all of the horrors which now take place -which happen now so they will never -ever -happen again -forvever -ESPECIALLY because all of this will be gone from memory.
Shad
Veteran Member
Depends. If someone suffers but the comfort is the form of self-blame it can be very harmful to the individual. God is often one step removed from that process. Think of karma in pop-culture context. I did X. Unrelated Y occurred. I assigned X as the cause of Y. God is just another factor.
Context of the story matters as well as God could or could not be a major character in a specific story. As per your "If there is no God" the story may make no sense if the a major character does not actually exist.
I agree that having a literal Satan is very important for the narrative of many Christians. Having a literal Satan is not part of a Baha’i worldview, nor is it a necessary part of our exegesis of the Bible. Increasing numbers of Christians see the story of Adam and Eve as allegorical. Same deal with the Christ being tested prior to the start of His Ministry and Satan for that matter.
Of course if Satan really wasn’t created to be a rebel God either failed or lacked His Prophetic powers on the day Satan came into being. But if believing in Satan helps you then I’m all for it.
In your belief system, why are we in this life if God is as loving as the Bible says he is? Why is there pain and suffering and death if God purposed for us to live in peaceful conditions in paradise on earth forever?....and why did Jesus come? Why did he have to die as it was foretold in the Hebrew scriptures. ( Isaiah 53:5; 9)
If satan isn't real, how do you make sense of any of it?
These are great questions @Deeje and would require some explanation. Any of these questions could make up a thread in its own right.
How about reframing the questions. How do Baha’is and Christians view God and to what extent are their views supported by the Bible?
How do Christians and Baha’is understand suffering and how well are each other’s views supported by the Bible?
What is God’s purpose for humanity on earth in the future? What do Christians and Baha’is share and where do they differ?
How do Christians and Baha’is view the purpose of Jesus’ Coming?
Why was Christ crucified from a Christian and Baha’i perspective?
Feel free to start a thread and tag me. I don’t mind where you put it but keep in mind there are people on this forum who seem fixated on trashing Christians and Baha’is.
The angel who became satan was in the same position as the apostle who betrayed Jesus. They did not start off as rebellious but developed a rebellious spirit due to them entertaining wrong thinking....the product of free will.
Both chose to betray one that they once loved and respected for selfish reasons. Wrong desires can creep in and if we do not dismiss them, they will become wrong actions. (James 1:13-15) Temptations are always there....so it takes strong faith and a close relationship with God to stand up for what we know is right.
It occurs to me in reading these questions that there is no agreement between us on any of them. Our beliefs are poles apart...and never the twain shall meet, I fear.
You don't ever have to tell a JW about being trashed on the internet....we actually expect it for the same reason that Jesus endured being trashed in his day. (John 15:18-21)
I don't think a thread on any of those subjects would get us anywhere....but agreeing to disagree. No point really
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Okay, let's explain this one in simple terms. First off, the existence of evil is not a disproof of God. If God has done his job as Creator, this is the only peoof we need to look at. Stuff exists? Check.
As foe the other, we have numerous explanations and you can take your pick:
1. God is evil or at least a major jerk
2. We see this as evil because was see ourselves as virtuous. Actually whenever bad things happen to us, it's to correct or punish us for sins
3. Deism. God created, then settled in for a long nap, or left the universe for a vacation.
4. Taoism. The universe is Good and Evil.
5. Coyote trickster. God/Jesus is trolling us.
6. Our notions of what would make the world good are fundamentally flawed.
7. Evil is there to build our character and because of free will (the official church stance)
Let's discuss #6. You see, I watched a movie last night known as Christmas Perfection. Basically, the girl was trapped in an initially perfect but ultimately unsatisfactory pocket dimension where it was Christmas all the time, people always had money, you could eat as much as you wanted and nor gain weight, and she always got a sleigh ride, a sweater, and a necklace during the course of a day. In orher words, ir was perfect according to her weird tastes. But when she tried to leave, the walls would block her. When she wanted to sleigh ride off the path the bf freaked out. And she couldn't make a black sweater or order something off the Christmas menu like pizza, and nobody would make a decision without her.
As you can imagine, it went from extremely pleasant, to boring, to at times creepy, to ultimately depressing. She wound up sleeping her days away before she finally figured out what (and who) she wanted and finally left.
A world without evil is not evidence of atheism. It's evidence of a God that cares for us that we are not forced to life in such an existence.
Btw, I do not believe Satan is strictly speaking necessary to this understanding.
As foe the other, we have numerous explanations and you can take your pick:
1. God is evil or at least a major jerk
2. We see this as evil because was see ourselves as virtuous. Actually whenever bad things happen to us, it's to correct or punish us for sins
3. Deism. God created, then settled in for a long nap, or left the universe for a vacation.
4. Taoism. The universe is Good and Evil.
5. Coyote trickster. God/Jesus is trolling us.
6. Our notions of what would make the world good are fundamentally flawed.
7. Evil is there to build our character and because of free will (the official church stance)
Let's discuss #6. You see, I watched a movie last night known as Christmas Perfection. Basically, the girl was trapped in an initially perfect but ultimately unsatisfactory pocket dimension where it was Christmas all the time, people always had money, you could eat as much as you wanted and nor gain weight, and she always got a sleigh ride, a sweater, and a necklace during the course of a day. In orher words, ir was perfect according to her weird tastes. But when she tried to leave, the walls would block her. When she wanted to sleigh ride off the path the bf freaked out. And she couldn't make a black sweater or order something off the Christmas menu like pizza, and nobody would make a decision without her.
As you can imagine, it went from extremely pleasant, to boring, to at times creepy, to ultimately depressing. She wound up sleeping her days away before she finally figured out what (and who) she wanted and finally left.
A world without evil is not evidence of atheism. It's evidence of a God that cares for us that we are not forced to life in such an existence.
Btw, I do not believe Satan is strictly speaking necessary to this understanding.
firedragon
Veteran Member
If God exists, why does He allow suffering?
If one believes God “allows” something, then one believes God has a choice. Personally, I don’t believe God has a choice in what we do in our living lives. God does have the ability to give us instructions on how we should live our lives. The choice is then ours to make.
Now this is just how I see things
How about you?
Thats a very interesting perspective.
Have you pondered how a God who created the universe would be unable to have a choice in the matter of suffering (If you believe in that attribute of God that is)?