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No need to believe in the literal truth of any theories or any Bible stories

Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I don’t think that all people need to believe in the literal truth of any theories, including the ones used in the sciences, to value those theories as much as anyone else does, and for society to benefit from them in all possible ways.

I think that it’s possible for a person who doesn’t believe in the literal truth of any Bible stories to receive the gift of faith and become a follower of Jesus.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
sun rise said:
I've noticed that some atheists decry the Bible by attacking it using a literal interpretation.
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Actually most atheists attack those that interpret it literally. And of course for those that do interpret the Bible literally it can be used as a weapon against them. Not all Christians are the same. The only ones that atheists tend to have a problem with are the literalists.
 
T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
sun rise said:
I've noticed that some atheists decry the Bible by attacking it using a literal interpretation.
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Yeah, but that's a practice that I can understand. It's consistent with an atheist's worldview and I, for one, can respect that consistency. The militant atheists were a little tedious until I realized that they tend to come, roughly, in two flavors: (1) those who have experienced difficulties at the hands of believers and (2) those who haven't but sincerely believe that the worldview of theists is harmful to others.

But what currently blows me away are folks who claim to belong to an Abrahamic faith community but don't believe in any Abrahamic belief whatsoever. For example, suppose my parents were muslim and I was raised from infancy in a household and community that engaged in some muslim practices. And suppose I made it known publicly and every chance I get that I am a muslim, but ... I don't hesitate to publicly deny that there is a shred of truth in the Qur'an and that Allah exists. In effect, wouldn't I be a cultural muslim atheist? The same possibility exists among christians. Seems to me that there's a serious break in consistency going on in both cases. And, IMO, the break diminishes credibility.
 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Terry Sampson said:
But what currently blows me away are folks who claim to belong to an Abrahamic faith community but don't believe in any Abrahamic belief whatsoever. For example, suppose my parents were muslim and I was raised from infancy in a household and community that engaged in some muslim practices. And suppose I made it known publicly and every chance I get that I am a muslim, but ... I don't hesitate to publicly deny that there is a shred of truth in the Qur'an and that Allah exists. In effect, wouldn't I be a cultural muslim atheist? The same possibility exists among christians. Seems to me that there's a serious break in consistency going on in both cases.
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A person who doesn’t believe in the literal truth of anything in the scriptures, and doesn’t believe in the reality or existence of anything that anyone can imagine as “God,” can still see wisdom in the stories as allegories, including what they say about God, considering all of that as metaphorical. They can also see working side-by-side with people in a community that includes people who do believe in the literal truth of all that as the best way for them to practice spiritual growth and community service.
 
T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Jim said:
  1. A person who doesn’t believe in the literal truth of anything in the scriptures, and doesn’t believe in the reality or existence of anything that anyone can imagine as “God,” can still see wisdom in the stories as allegories, including what they say about God, considering all of that as metaphorical.
  2. They can also see working side-by-side with people in a community that includes people who do believe in the literal truth of all that as the best way for them to practice spiritual growth and community service.
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re: #1. I'm going to assume that you are such a person. What "wisdom" do you find in the stories? What counts as "wisdom" to you?
re: #2. I readily agree that working side-by-side with people who have substantially different worldviews than me is the best was to practice community service. In fact, I can't think of any other way to practice community service in a culturally diverse society. What I don't understand is what you think "spiritual growth" is.
 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Terry Sampson said:
re: #1. I'm going to assume that you are such a person. What "wisdom" do you find in the stories? What counts as "wisdom" to you?
re: #2. I readily agree that working side-by-side with people who have substantially different worldviews than me is the best was to practice community service. In fact, I can't think of any other way to practice community service in a culturally diverse society. What I don't understand is what you think "spiritual growth" is.
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The wisdom that I see is about how to live the best life we can, and to bring out the best possibilities in ourselves, in the world around us and in society. For me, that begins with learning to trust and follow Jesus. For me, spiritual growth is improving my character and the way I live my my life in ways that help improve the lives of all people everywhere and help improve the world for future generations.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Jim said:
The wisdom that I see is about how to live the best life we can, and to bring out the best possibilities in ourselves, in the world around us and in society. For me, that begins with learning to trust and follow Jesus. For me, spiritual growth is improving my character and the way I live my my life in ways that help improve the lives of all people everywhere and help improve the world for future generations.
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That's very sweet but why is it appropriate to an Evolution vs Creationism sub-forum?
 
T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Living the best life one can, bringing out the best in oneself, in society, and the world around one, improving one's character and the way one lives one's life to order to improve the lives of all people now and for future generations are noble goals.

So, if I've understood you: wisdom, for you, is the information that tells you how to grow spiritually and growing spiritually consists of improving one's character and doing what you can to achieve the noble goals. And all of that begins with learning to trust and follow Jesus. Interesting. Two questions:
  1. Is the Jesus that you've learned or are learning to trust and follow the metaphorically resurrected and ascended Jesus of the Baha'i or the literally resurrected and ascended Jesus of the apostles, including Paul of Tarsus?
  2. If you've learned or are learning to trust and follow the "literally resurrected and ascended" Jesus, why do you describe your religion as: "learning to follow Baha'u'llah"?
 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I’m
Terry Sampson said:
Living the best life one can, bringing out the best in oneself, in society, and the world around one, improving one's character and the way one lives one's life to order to improve the lives of all people now and for future generations are noble goals.

So, if I've understood you: wisdom, for you, is the information that tells you how to grow spiritually and growing spiritually consists of improving one's character and doing what you can to achieve the noble goals. And all of that begins with learning to trust and follow Jesus. Interesting. Two questions:
  1. Is the Jesus that you've learned or are learning to trust and follow the metaphorically resurrected and ascended Jesus of the Baha'i or the literally resurrected and ascended Jesus of the apostles, including Paul of Tarsus?
  2. If you've learned or are learning to trust and follow the "literally resurrected and ascended" Jesus, why do you describe your religion as: "learning to follow Baha'u'llah"?
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I’m describing what I see the Bible stories saying, in biblical terms as I understand them. In those terms I see the Bible saying that learning to love and trust the Jesus whose life story is told in the gospels is the best thing that can happen to anyone, and what the world needs most of all. The more that a person learns to love and trust that Jesus, the more they will learn from the Bible about how to live the best life. That’s what I see the Bible saying. Of course my view of that is influenced by what I’ve learned from my other master teachers.
 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Terry Sampson said:
I'll take that as a "learned or learning to trust the metaphorically resurrected and ascended Jesus of the Baha'i".
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Then you’ll be grievously and injuriously falsifying misrepresenting what I think.
 
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T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Jim said:
Then you’ll be grievously and injuriously falsifying what I think.
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My apologies, then. You could have prevented my falsification if you had simply said "the latter", or that you've learned or are learning to trust and follow the literally resurrected and ascended Jesus of the apostles, including Paul of Tarsus.

My initial question was:
Terry Sampson said:
Is the Jesus that you've learned or are learning to trust and follow the metaphorically resurrected and ascended Jesus of the Baha'i or the literally resurrected and ascended Jesus of the apostles, including Paul of Tarsus?
Click to expand...
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Jim said:
I don’t think that all people need to believe in the literal truth of any theories, including the ones used in the sciences, to value those theories as much as anyone else does, and for society to benefit from them in all possible ways.
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Of course not all people need to believe anything, but almost all people need to believe somethings.

I think that it’s possible for a person who doesn’t believe in the literal truth of any Bible stories to receive the gift of faith and become a follower of Jesus.
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How is this gift of faith produced? Are there any qualifications to be a recipient? Can one dismiss all the bible stories as untrue or exaggerations and still be a recipient?

,
 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
In the OP I said:
Jim said:
I think that it’s possible for a person who doesn’t believe in the literal truth of any Bible stories to receive the gift of faith and become a follower of Jesus.
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The Jesus that I’m talking about is the Jesus whose life story is told in the gospels, not just any person that anyone imagines and calls “Jesus.” I personally think of Him as an actual person who lived 2019 years ago, plus or minus a few years, but I don’t think that a person always has to believe that, before they can receive the gift of faith and become a follower of Jesus.
 
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