If God spoke again...

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

SalixIncendium said:
By all means, then please present it.

Please provide these deeds and words along with evidence they actually came from God.

I could provide evidence but not proof, and not on this thread, because that is not what this thread is about.

SalixIncendium said:
It would be acceptable because there are religions that require no messenger or message. They are based on one's personal experiences. No third party verification required.

Religion is based upon a Revelation from God to humanity. It is not a religion if it is based upon one's personal experiences. How is that going to help all of humanity that is in dire need of solutions to the present-day problems we are facing?

columbus · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I would rather say that it is up to God to decide what matters to Him.
It does not matter one iota what I think.

Then why do you keep telling me what God thinks, wants, is capable of, and feels?
You do it a lot.
Tom

SalixIncendium · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I could provide evidence but not proof, and not on this thread, because that is not what this thread is about.

Actually, it is. You state that God sent a messenger with a message. I asked for evidence. It's on topic and relevant to the discussion.

But if you want to play the off-topic card to get out of presenting your evidence, that's fine. So you won't mind if I start a new thread on the topic of evidence that these message came from God, you'll provide evidence there?

Trailblazer said:
Religion is based upon a Revelation from God to humanity.

I think you may have left out the word "My" at the beginning of your sentence.

Trailblazer said:
It is not a religion if it is based upon one's personal experiences. How is that going to help all of humanity that is in dire need of solutions to the present-day problems we are facing?

Well, because...

Trailblazer said:
God wants us to make a sincere effort and use our innate intelligence.

MonkeyFire · Dec 21, 2019

There can only be one God with a big 'g' and if he sent the new prophet it would be fine.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

SalixIncendium said:
Seems like an odd way to hope to successfully communicate a message.

You are making an assumption that God cares how many people get the message. Why would that matter to God how many people get the message or how soon that happens? God does not need anything for Himself because God is fully self-sufficient and self-sustaining. The message is for humans, so they are the only ones who suffer if they fail to get the message.

SalixIncendium said:
When I want to see a desired result in my restaurants, I don't talk to one manager and hope that the other 100+ managers that work for me receive it and believe that it came from me. I send an email to every restaurant so the managers can verify it came from me and follow that up with one-on-one discussions or meetings. And sometimes that isn't always 100 percent successful.

That is because you have a particular goal in mind. My boss also sends e-mails to the whole section to be sure we all get the same message, if the message pertains to everyone and he wants us all to get it.

Apparently, you are assuming God's goal is that everyone gets the message that is delivered through the Messenger. Apparently you are assuming God wants everyone to know that the message came from Him. If God wanted all of us to know it came from Him, God could have made sure we all know that, since God us omnipotent and omniscient.

Obviously, if God had that goal in mind, God would deliver the message some other way, not through a Messenger who most people are not going to recognize.

SalixIncendium · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
You are making an assumption that God cares how many people get the message. Why would that matter to God how many people get the message or how soon that happens? God does not need anything for Himself because God is fully self-sufficient and self-sustaining. The message is for humans, so they are the only ones who suffer if they fail to get the message.

That is because you have a particular goal in mind. My boss also sends e-mails to the whole section to be sure we all get the same message, if the message pertains to everyone and he wants us all to get it.

Apparently, you are assuming God's goal is that everyone gets the message that is delivered through the Messenger. Apparently you are assuming God wants everyone to know that the message came from Him. If God wanted all of us to know it came from Him, God could have made sure we all know that, since God us omnipotent and omniscient.

Obviously, if God had that goal in mind, God would deliver the message some other way, not through a Messenger who most people are not going to recognize.

Why would God send a message at all if it was of no consequence to him who got it? Why would he only have a select number receive it? Are there humans that aren't a part of humanity?

Why would Baha'i try to spread the message?

Deeje · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
If God spoke again through a new Messenger who had a message for all of humanity, would it “matter” if the adherents to the older religions recognized that Messenger and followed His religion, or would it be acceptable for religious people to continue following the older religions they adhere to?

If you think it matters why do you think so?

If you think it does not matter why don’t you think so?

Were we told to expect a new messenger? Moses foretold that "a prophet like me" was to come in the future. That prophet was identified as Jesus Christ. (Deuteronomy 18:15)

In Deuteronomy 18:19, Jehovah spoke to Moses, whom He had appointed as mediator between himself and His people, saying: “I will raise up a prophet for them from among their own people, like yourself: I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them all that I command him; and if anybody fails to heed the words he speaks in My name, I myself will call him to account.”

In both verses the word prophet is in the singular.....so there was not more than one prophet spoken about here.

"Moses was a great leader; he was a legislator, a prophet, a miracle worker, a teacher, and a judge. He was also a mediator, the only prophet who had mediated a covenant between God and man (in this case, the nation of Israel). A prophet truly like him would have to do something similar. Does this mean that God intended that the Law covenant be superseded by another covenant? Yes, it does. Through the prophet Jeremiah, God clearly stated his intention to conclude a new covenant. A new covenant would require a new mediator. Only someone like Moses could fit the requirements for such an assignment. If we examine what the new covenant entails, we can better understand the role of the mediator."

What Is God’s Purpose for Mankind? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The fact that this prophet was to also speak in God's name also rules out any other prophet, since there were none after Jesus who spoke in Jehovah's name. The apostles taught what Jesus commanded them to teach.

At Matthew 11:27 Jesus points out...."All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him."

Hebrews 1:1-4 says.....
“Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.“

So....to my understanding, it is therefore impossible for a prophet to emerge from a different religious system to instruct God's people, who were always commanded to maintain separateness from any other religious influences. (Not that they obeyed him most the of the time.)

The promises made to Abraham were to be fulfilled through Isaac...NOT Ishmael. It was Isaac’s son Jacob who was also included in that covenant....from Jacob came the 12 tribes of Israel.

Jesus said that salvation originated with the Jews descended from Jacob’s sons.....not Muslims. (John 4:21-24)

I do not believe that all religions can be acceptable to God because God prohibited his people from listening to false prophets and from adopting false religious ideas. The reason is that God’s arch enemy is the author and promoter of all false worship. He is a master deceiver, which results in “few” being on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

columbus said:
Then why do you keep telling me what God thinks, wants, is capable of, and feels?
You do it a lot.
Tom

That does not come from me, it came from Baha'u'llah, although I do not know what God thinks or feels, only what God wills and is capable of.

columbus · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
That does not come from me, it came from Baha'u'llah, although I do not know what God thinks or feels, only what God wills and is capable of.

It didn't come from anyone but you.

And no, I don't believe you know whether God wills anything or not, much less what it is. The claims you make about God aren't even particularly rational.
Tom

Howard Is · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Because God is not trying to ensure that everyone gets the message.
God wants us to make a sincere effort and use our innate intelligence.
Some people will get the message and some won't.

Why is a messenger even necessary ?

If there is a God, surely he could give the message in each person’s heart and mind ?

If I had a ‘mystical revelation’, or whatever, and then discovered that everyone else had received the same revelation, that would be compelling. And it would circumvent the whole ‘real or false’ prophet scenario.

So IMO all messengers are false.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

SalixIncendium said:
Actually, it is. You state that God sent a messenger with a message. I asked for evidence. It's on topic and relevant to the discussion.

No, I said IF God spoke again through a new Messenger who had a message for all of humanity, so it was hypothetical…

SalixIncendium said:
But if you want to play the off-topic card to get out of presenting your evidence, that's fine. So you won't mind if I start a new thread on the topic of evidence that these message came from God, you'll provide evidence there?

I will provide what I consider evidence, as long as I won’t get dinged by staff for proselytizing, because that would be unjust.

SalixIncendium said:
I think you may have left out the word "My" at the beginning of your sentence.

Not only my religion, but also the other Abrahamic religions.

SalixIncendium said:
Well, because...
Trailblazer said: God wants us to make a sincere effort and use our innate intelligence.

But how does having your own personal message only you recognize help all of humanity?

Heyo · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Okay, I'll bite.
If God sent a new Messenger I think it would matter if people recognized and followed that Messenger and if that Messenger founded a new religion I think everyone should join that religion. But that is just my personal opinion and it is based upon my logic.

Yeah, that kind of logic has been tried over and over again and each time it made Agnosticism more true.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

columbus said:
It didn't come from anyone but you.

It did not come from me. I do not speak for God.

columbus said:
And no, I don't believe you know whether God wills anything or not, much less what it is. The claims you make about God aren't even particularly rational.
Tom

Take that up with Baha'u'llah, He is the one who makes the claims.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

Howard Is said:
Why is a messenger even necessary ?

If there is a God, surely he could give the message in each person’s heart and mind ?

No, not really, because not everyone could understand God and write upwards of 15,000 Tablets.
That is one reason a Messenger is necessary.

Howard Is said:
If I had a ‘mystical revelation’, or whatever, and then discovered that everyone else had received the same revelation, that would be compelling. And it would circumvent the whole ‘real or false’ prophet scenario.

How could you ever discover that?

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

Heyo said:
Yeah, that kind of logic has been tried over and over again.

And each time they were right.... People should have recognized the Messenger in the age in which He appeared. But instead what happened is that people have always rejected any Messenger that came AFTER the Messenger they already believe in. That is essentially why religion is so divided.

Howard Is · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
No, not really, because not everyone could understand God and write upwards of 15,000 Tablets.
That is one reason a Messenger is necessary.

How could you ever discover that?

They wouldn’t need to write 15000 tablets.
In my experience, God is very succinct.

The more they write, the more suspect they are.

I would know if everyone had received a revelation.
Jesus, I know what the Kardashians are wearing !

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

Deeje said:
Were we told to expect a new messenger? Moses foretold that "a prophet like me" was to come in the future. That prophet was identified as Jesus Christ. (Deuteronomy 18:15)

Depending upon how one interprets the New Testament, Jesus also foretold another one who would come after Him. Just like Moses, all Prophets do that. We just need to be able to understand what they are saying...

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

Howard Is said:
They wouldn’t need to write 15000 tablets.
In my experience, God is very succinct.

In my experience God is very verbose.

Howard Is said:
The more they write, the more suspect they are.

That might be true because there is a lot that people do not agree with owing to their preconceptions, but being suspect does not make them false.

Howard Is said:
I would know if everyone had received a revelation.

How would you know? How could you know?

Howard Is · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
How would you know? How could you know?

Everyone would be talking about it.

Howard Is · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
In my experience God is very verbose.

Cut back on the coffee

If God spoke again...

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