If God exists, why does He allow suffering?

Unveiled Artist · Dec 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

Actually, no. There isn't harm in looking at biblical stories for inspiration regardless our religion or lack thereof. Of course, it would take a long time for some to pass their indoctrinated views to see the bible as any other historical/philosophical/mythological (and Xological) books that aren't harmless in and of itself. Also, I think it's similar to christian view where the god of the bible is seen as interacting in the real world. So, believers and Xchristians alike speak of god in those sense either for or against. That's why it's a challenge but not impossible if one is interested.

Adversity? Well, of course that depends on the individual person. I see where you going. I'm not too sure how the concept of god literally consoles people outside of philosophy and reading scriptures, spiritual books, and the like. Outside of that, I don't have a perspective.

Without god, how do people deal with adversity? There are a list of ways from family and tradition, following one's passion, a lot of things. My question (though not the OP) is how do people of god face adversity? I know there are prophets, manifestations, books, and Practices but at the end, it only makes sense to the person(s) who follow the scripture and/or practice.

I think your answer is kind of simple because everyone is different but when you flip it to spiritual, how can one explain it outside the jargon?

-

Don't know about other religions. I wonder if asking people individually rather than by religion would help get an idea of what people believe and practice to combat adversity? There are but so many people who follow religions as a whole but if you ask them the definition of god, no one has one consensus. So, the question may be less focus on different religions and more focus on people's personal beliefs, values, and perspectives.

Of course on RF, that's kinda hard. Shrugs.

Salvador · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
If God intervened every time someone was about to get raped or murdered, etc., it would throw off the entire order in the world which is based upon free will, and evil people would become programmed robots. The solution is for evil people to follow the teachings and laws of the Messengers of God and if they did that there would be no evil in the world. So the way God demonstrates His benevolence is by sending those Messengers with teachings and laws.

Even if there were everybody being in compliance with God's messengers and there being no rapists or murderers, there'd still be the wickedness of some other bad things happening to good people. I fail to understand how an all-mighty God, who'd fail to keep cancer away from harming innocent children, could be considered as being highly benevolent.

wizanda · Dec 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

Basically the Lord puts afflictions on us down here near Hell to lead us back (repentance), and those who have the most drama, have the most to deal with.

Yet those who overcome their afflictions in scripture, are those that are then chosen as refined vessels of righteousness (Isaiah 48:10).

In the Bhagavad Gita chapter 16, the demons are sent back to this realm in tougher situations, to learn from their afflictions down here.

adrian009 said:
Christianity

Asking from a Christian perspective is a flawed hypothesis, as it is a Pharisaic system of Yetzer Hara (Evil inclination); which implies they think they're under sin as a burden to pay, rather than our reality invites it.

Lots of Yeshua's Parables are challenging these ideas, yet people are not being educated how the Pharisees are being dumb; instead everyone is being taught to follow them (John, Paul, and Simon) without really questioning it.

In understanding the differences between the Synoptic Gospels, and the Pharisees ideologies, it leads to enlightenment; yet without the affliction of questioning these contrasts, there is no Salvation found in the very narrow path in the middle-line.

Like for example, we're contrasting on many beliefs now, where to begin I wasn't sure, and did the same...

Now though it has taken us years to realize, we were raised in a cult mentality of Christianity, and it isn't following the Messiah as King of Israel as reported in the Tanakh, and Synoptic Gospels... This according to the texts, is an affliction on the whole world.

In my opinion.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
When I was writing this thread, I couldn't help but think about my Baha'i sister and how we are in very different places in answering this question. Like you, I have had a less than desirable upbringing and suffered deeply. Embracing the writings of Baha'u'llah didn't take it all away but it really did help a great deal. I feel profoundly grateful and indebted and just love a whole range of sacred writings from different faiths.

I think there is a whole lot more to consider than an undesirable upbringing. Also, had you not been raised Christian I do not think you would have the faith in God that you do now. I did not have any religion growing up, nor did I have parents who were there for me. The other thing that needs to be considered is genetics. Some of us inherit a certain temperament and we cannot do anything about that. If one has a predisposition to anxiety and depression it will always be there no matter how much counseling and faith in God one has.

adrian009 said:
But if I was in a car crash heading off to work on Monday and became very disabled, I may well feel differently? I have a sense from your response that you are not entirely impressed or satisfied with what God has given you. Would that be correct?

Leaving God and religion completely out of the equation, I think you would feel differently if your life had gone differently; if you were never able to have any children and did not have a successful career.

I do not think in terms of God giving me anything. I was born because my mother and father decided to have children and everything else I have I have worked for and fought for, tooth and nail. Tell me why some people don't have to fight much at all and end up with a family, a successful career that goes smoothly, friends, family, and activities they enjoy.

I have nothing to complain about now, not compared to what I had to endure most of my life, because I have financial security and good health and a nice husband who is also a Baha'i. I have so much money that I could easily retire tomorrow and do whatever I want to for the rest of my life, if I was not a Baha'i. You see, I have very mixed feelings about this mission and it is up and down.

By the way, this was a great idea for a thread. I wrote up a thread about why God allows suffering some time ago, but I never got around to posting it. I still have it in a Word document but I have been waiting for the right time to post it.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

Salvador said:
Even if there were everybody being in compliance with God's messengers and there being no rapists or murderers, there'd still be the wickedness of some other bad things happening to good people. I fail to understand how an all-mighty God, who'd fail to keep cancer away from harming innocent children, could be considered as being highly benevolent.

If nobody was evil then there would not be bad things happening to anyone.
Finding cures for diseases like cancer is the job of scientists. That is why we have intelligence and free will.

Religious apologetics aside, I do not think we will ever be able to understand how a omnipotent/omniscient/benevolent God and suffering can be reconciled, not in this earthly life, but I think it will all become clear in the afterlife.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

@ Salvador

What is Swedenborgianism? Does it have anything to do with Emanuel Swedenborg?

Dawnofhope · Dec 21, 2019

9-10ths_Penguin said:
- God wants to prevent suffering but can't do it.
- God could prevent suffering, but doesn't want to do it.
- God is both unable and unwilling to prevent suffering.

How about through following God's Messengers, God provides us as a means to overcome suffering?

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Yes, there's potentially tremendous harm. If you use promises of reward in Heaven to encourage people to be compliant and complacent, then they won't bother to do anything about the suffering or injustice they have to endure. This means that it will continue and that more people will have to endure it unnecessarily.

From what you say, it sounds as if people who follow a theistic religion do so because of a future reward in the after life. That's not my personal experience but may be for others. Many people I know who follow a spiritual path do so because that path makes sense and they find it enables them to be better people.

However for some people, religion can be harmful especially if it leads to superstition, prejudice and estrangement with those who view the world differently. Sometimes religion can prevent a life saving medical intervention such as a blood transfusion.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Look for ways to overcome it.

Of course. There are ways to overcome adversity without following any religion or spiritual path. However there are practices in religion such as meditation that have proven health benefits.

Thanks for your post.

Dawnofhope · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Another answer is that God does exist and there is no intervention or involvement.

That sounds like deism.

Trailblazer said:
Isn't this a Christian belief?
How does God intervene and become involved?
The whole point of free will is that we are on our own and God does not get involved.

IMHO God intervenes in human affairs by sending His Messengers. These Messengers in turn inspire and enable great thinkers and artists who contribute to an ever advancing civilisation. Through aligning our lives with the highest Teachings of said Messengers we can be channels through which God acts. In that manner we become both a source of good in the world and experience the Bounty of God. That's how I see it. Do you think my view is supported by the Baha'i Writings or perhaps I've inadvertantly introduced elements of Christianity into my Baha'i life that contradict the Baha'i Writings?

Dawnofhope · Dec 21, 2019

epronovost said:
I think the simplest answer to the OP's question is "because he likes it".

So God is malevolent and cruel?

Dawnofhope · Dec 21, 2019

ajay0 said:
As per the Prajapita Brahmakumaris , the soul is originally perfect and pure, and has intrinsic bliss and joy. Through repeated births or reincarnations, it adds layers of impressions or karmic impurities in its consciousness, through the influence of sensory desires in the form of cravings and aversions. This layer of psychological impressions blurs this state of pure consciousness.

This makes it unconscious or body-conscious resulting in vicious conduct. The desires in the form of cravings and aversions results in actions transcending virtuous conduct and behavior for temporal pleasures related to lust, greed, hatred, ego-gratification and attachments.

This unnatural state of impure consciousness results in temporary pleasures but suffering in the longer run. This perpetuates indiscriminate pleasure-seeking, as lack of joy within results in further pleasure-seeking, and this results in a vicious cycle of inordinate pleasure-seeking and suffering.

Through remembrance of God and meditation, one is able to destroy the impurities in the consciousness and purify it, and access its natural state of bliss, joy and peace again.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris teach Raja Yoga meditation as part of seven day courses in their centers in almost every country around the world. This has enabled many people to experience bliss and joy of their pure state of consciousness, and get rid of addictions to pleasure-seeking and substance abuse like alcoholism, smoking . This has also enabled many to experience better health as most diseases are of a psychosomatic nature.

Brahma Kumaris - What is Raja Yoga Meditation?

Thank you for a well written explanation from a Hindu perspective. We have a member of the Brahma Kumaris in my interfaith council. She seems like a very peaceful and spiritual person and is an excellent role model in our wider community being a well respected school teacher. I agree with everything you say about the power of the Rembrance of God and meditation.

Dawnofhope · Dec 21, 2019

Unveiled Artist said:
Actually, no. There isn't harm in looking at biblical stories for inspiration regardless our religion or lack thereof. Of course, it would take a long time for some to pass their indoctrinated views to see the bible as any other historical/philosophical/mythological (and Xological) books that aren't harmless in and of itself. Also, I think it's similar to christian view where the god of the bible is seen as interacting in the real world. So, believers and Xchristians alike speak of god in those sense either for or against. That's why it's a challenge but not impossible if one is interested.

I agree that for the most part the most part there is no harm whatsoever in acquainting oneself with Bible stories or from any faith whether we believe in it or not. It can still be inspiring anyhow with many great lessons in life.

Unveiled Artist said:
Adversity? Well, of course that depends on the individual person. I see where you going. I'm not too sure how the concept of god literally consoles people outside of philosophy and reading scriptures, spiritual books, and the like. Outside of that, I don't have a perspective.

Unveiled Artist said:
Without god, how do people deal with adversity? There are a list of ways from family and tradition, following one's passion, a lot of things. My question (though not the OP) is how do people of god face adversity? I know there are prophets, manifestations, books, and Practices but at the end, it only makes sense to the person(s) who follow the scripture and/or practice.

I'm considering coping strategies through adversity. There are a number of ways in which my faith has been helpful and most of those ways are not unique to the Baha'i Faith.

1/ See the positives in peoples and not the negatives and love them for who they are.
2/ Positive encouragement to be of service, offer charity, participate and work in the community.
3/ Avoidance of alcohol and drugs.
4/ Encouragement to be a good husband and father.
5/ Learning the skills of consultation and collective decision making through community life
6/ Increased devotion to God through prayer, reading of sacred writings and chanting.
7/ Inner peace through meditation.
8/ Development of self-restraint through fasting
9/ Avoidance of backbiting and gossip.
10/ Being concerned not just for myself and immediate family and friends but also for my community.

Unveiled Artist said:
I think your answer is kind of simple because everyone is different but when you flip it to spiritual, how can one explain it outside the jargon?

In starting threads like these I'm interested in the perspectives of others and its good to hear diverse and contradictory opinions through many different worldviews.

Unveiled Artist said:
Don't know about other religions. I wonder if asking people individually rather than by religion would help get an idea of what people believe and practice to combat adversity? There are but so many people who follow religions as a whole but if you ask them the definition of god, no one has one consensus. So, the question may be less focus on different religions and more focus on people's personal beliefs, values, and perspectives.

Of course on RF, that's kinda hard. Shrugs.

Thanks for sharing.

Trailblazer · Dec 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
That sounds like deism.

No, it is not deism because I believe God intervenes by sending Messengers, so God must care or God would not send Messengers and make Covenants with man.

adrian009 said:
IMHO God intervenes in human affairs by sending His Messengers. These Messengers in turn inspire and enable great thinkers and artists who contribute to an ever advancing civilisation. Through aligning our lives with the highest Teachings of said Messengers we can be channels through which God acts.

Yes, we can be channels through which God acts of we follow the teachings of the Messengers, so God can work through people who are channels. I just do not believe God gets involved directly, that is a Christian belief.

adrian009 said:
In that manner we become both a source of good in the world and experience the Bounty of God. That's how I see it. Do you think my view is supported by the Baha'i Writings or perhaps I've inadvertantly introduced elements of Christianity into my Baha'i life that contradict the Baha'i Writings?

No, this particular view is supported by the Baha'i Writings. It is when people say that God is doing this and that that it becomes a Christian belief. For example, on my Christian radio station they sometimes say God is making them who they are as if God is doing everything and they are not making their own choices or determining their own destiny. They will say things like "God is not finished with me yet."

Ponder This · Dec 21, 2019

What is suffering?

Is it pain?
Is it distress?
Is it hardship?
Is it something bad or unpleasant?
Is it being affected by an illness or ailment?
Is it to become or appear worse in quality?

Or is it to tolerate? to bear? to endure?
Is it to allow?

What is it for God to allow something?

Is it to give permission?
Is it to permit to have?
Is it permit to enter or to go in a particular direction?
Is it to admit as legal or acceptable?
Is it to give the necessary time or opportunity for?
Is it to provide scope for or make provision for?
Is it to take something into consideration when making plans or calculations?
Is it to provide or set aside for a specific purpose?
Is it to admit the truth of or to concede?
Is it to assert or be of the opinion?

Or is it to commend? to sanction? to praise? to allocate?

Perhaps God commends those who bear that which is from below.
Why? Because those who bear that which is from below are worthy of praise.

Dawnofhope · Dec 21, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I think there is a whole lot more to consider than an undesirable upbringing. Also, had you not been raised Christian I do not think you would have the faith in God that you do now. I did not have any religion growing up, nor did I have parents who were there for me. The other thing that needs to be considered is genetics. Some of us inherit a certain temperament and we cannot do anything about that. If one has a predisposition to anxiety and depression it will always be there no matter how much counseling and faith in God one has.

You are absolutely correct in everything you say. No one can walk in the shoes of another.

For some people being exposed to Christianity and going to church is a very negative experience but it never was for me. It wasn't until my early adult years I needed to focus on the spiritual aspect of life (having gone off the rails through poor decision making) I reconnected with my Christian roots and started having negative experiences with fundamentalist Christians who really turned me off Christianity. So I needed spirituality but no longer knew where to go or who to turn to in finding it. This is the oppression Baha'u'llah refers to in the Kitab-i-Iqan when elaborating on Matthew 24:29. It was a terrible time and I developed severe depression for a few years. However that eventually lifted when I became a Baha'i and started applying the writings to my life. I had never experienced depression of that magnitude in childhood though did go through a difficult time for a few years round the time my parents went through an acrimonious seperation then divorce when I was 12.

Trailblazer said:
Leaving God and religion completely out of the equation, I think you would feel differently if your life had gone differently; if you were never able to have any children and did not have a successful career.

That is true. I wouldn't see myself as being particularly successful at anything I do but it keeps me so busy I just don't have time to think too much about myself.

Trailblazer said:
I do not think in terms of God giving me anything. I was born because my mother and father decided to have children and everything else I have I have worked for and fought for, tooth and nail. Tell me why some people don't have to fight much at all and end up with a family, a successful career that goes smoothly, friends, family, and activities they enjoy.

Having five years searching for the meaning of life in my early adult years, including being depressed for 2 or 3 years was tough going and not for the faint of heart. It was great to come to the Baha'i Faith at the end of that journey as for a while I kinda gave up hope there was anything worth searching for.

Trailblazer said:
I have nothing to complain about now, not compared to what I had to endure most of my life, because I have financial security and good health and a nice husband who is also a Baha'i. I have so much money that I could easily retire tomorrow and do whatever I want to for the rest of my life, if I was not a Baha'i. You see, I have very mixed feelings about this mission and it is up and down.

That's good to hear.

Trailblazer said:
By the way, this was a great idea for a thread. I wrote up a thread about why God allows suffering some time ago, but I never got around to posting it. I still have it in a Word document but I have been waiting for the right time to post it.

Thank you. I had done a few threads exploring atheism a few months back and so the question naturally emerged after all these atheists kept saying "If there is a God, why is there suffering?". I thought I'd explore the question in a little more depth.

Martin · Dec 21, 2019

Deeje · Dec 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

Using the scriptures in a simple formula, this is how JW's would answer that question.....

TRUTH 1: JEHOVAH DOES NOT CAUSE ANY SUFFERING

“It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly, for the Almighty to do wrong!”—Job 34:10

Why is there so much suffering in the world?

1 John 5:19

The ruler of the world is Satan the Devil.
Ecclesiastes 8:9

Humans cause others to suffer.
Ecclesiastes 9:11

Sometimes people suffer because they are at the wrong place at the wrong time.
1 Peter 5:7

Jehovah has deep love for people. He hates to see them suffer.

TRUTH 2: SATAN CHALLENGED JEHOVAH’S RIGHT TO RULE

“God knows that . . . your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”—Genesis 3:5

Why did Jehovah not ignore Satan’s challenge?

Genesis 3:2-5

Satan accused God of being a bad ruler. Satan wanted humans to believe that they had the right to decide for themselves what was right or wrong.
Job 38:7

Satan challenged Jehovah in front of millions of angels.

TRUTH 3: SATAN’S CHALLENGE HAS FAILED

“It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23

Why have humans suffered for so long?

Isaiah 55:9

Humans have had many kinds of governments, but they cannot rule the earth successfully without God.
2 Peter 3:9, 10

Jehovah is patient and has allowed time for us to come to know him and to choose him as our Ruler.
1 John 3:8

Jehovah will use Jesus to undo all the damage that Satan has done.

TRUTH 4: USE YOUR FREE WILL TO SERVE JEHOVAH

“Be wise, my son, . . . so that I can make a reply to him who taunts me.”—Proverbs 27:11

Why doesn’t Jehovah force us to serve him?

Proverbs 30:24

Animals act primarily because of instinct, but Jehovah has given us free will. We can decide whether we will serve him or not.
Matthew 22:37, 38

Jehovah wants us to serve him because we love him."

Why So Much Suffering? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

God's allowing satan to rule the world was a master stroke IMO. (Luke 4:5-8) The devil's challenge resulted in what he wanted, free reign to win humankind over to his way of thinking, using selfish desires and ambition to drive his agenda. God would allow him relative freedom to prove his case and not interfere unless, through extraordinary circumstance, his purpose in allowing it, was threatened. (such as in Noah's day)

Any suffering would be the result of the devil's administration, so if God intervened to prevent the suffering, the lesson would be lost.

At the end of this monumental object lesson, God will have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans, influenced by the devil, could never rule the world successfully without his guidance and direction. We are not designed to exercise power over others...it corrupts us every time.

At the end of the lesson, God is left with "sheep and goats"...each has a destination....one to life and the other to death. (Matthew 7:13-14) The sheep will go on to enjoy what God created in the beginning, and the goats, who have no interest in God or doing the right thing, will have their tenancy here terminated. (Matthew 25:31-33; 41; 46)

Aupmanyav · Dec 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

We do not. After death, what constituted us is dispersed. There is no you or me to experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. While there is no harm if some people are comforted by untruth, the best way is to face our mortality head-on. Accept it as part of life. Why do you want to live in a world of make-believe?

Aupmanyav · Dec 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
That is certainly the dilemma and perspective of many atheists and agnostics. So if God were all these things why doesn't He act? One answer is He doesn't exist so therefore there is no intervention or involvement. I see God does exist and chooses to intervene and become involved.

Or "what exists" is not involved \ not concerned about human affairs. That is the idea of Brahman with some Hindus.

adrian009 said:
That is certainly the dilemma and perspective of many atheists and agnostics.

There is no dilemma for atheists. They use Okham's Razor which tells them that no God exists. The dilemma of evil exists only for believers.

ChristineM · Dec 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

It has always (since mid teens) been my view that no (claimed) caring god would allow unnecessary suffering. So if a god or gods do exist then they are most certainly not caring. Given all the other contradictions between god and reality the only possible belief if that no gods exist or can exist in (or be part of) this universe.

As to harm, yes there can be harm, if those comforting stories imping on reality or direct a believer to carry out an action that offends human morality

John53 · Dec 21, 2019

danieldemol said:
There is no logical answer for a believer in God in my opinion.

For even the first creatures suffered lived and died, so from where came their bad karma? And how do creatures such as single celled organisms which don’t have the freewill to choose between right/wrong actions acquire negative (or even positive) karma anyway?

At best we can hope for a realm where God balances out such suffering, although I acknowledge there are good logical reasons not to do so.

So in summary I find myself to be a believer in God because I’m hardwired to do so, and a believer in the immortal spirit because of my inherited family cultural beliefs. But I offer no proof of my belief because there is none that I know of.

Best answer I've ever seen to these type of questions. I'm interested with you saying you're hard wired to believe.... maybe there's a believing gene and I missed out. I was raised a Christian but for as long as I can remember I had no belief God was real. I believed my parents and the C of E priest at one time and thought there was something wrong with me.

Hope you understand what I'm trying to say, in bed on the tablet and hate typing it but too fat and lazy to get up and use the computer.

If God exists, why does He allow suffering?

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