The idea of spirituality that says humans are good

Brickjectivity · Dec 5, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
So when I was young and first read the bible, the driving ideas that I took away were about human nature. It declared that you human, are proud, guilty, shameful, sinful, selfish murderers of the son of god and prophets. Starting wars and turning away from god, always due for contrition. Looking back at it, I see myself as starting from a stark and narrow vision of the human role here

What if we start instead, from the idea that we are innately good. That our worldly interactions are good, that our ambition and enthusiasm does not demand we don the sackcloth of Jonah, that human worldly effort need not come under constant divine scrutiny

Who does not really believe it is that way anyway, who functions in our western society full of shame for pride in their efforts. If one goes through life successfully, they proudly wear the success they accrue, and rightly so. Great people build upon the world, where god says woodworms and moths will eat their worldly works, eroding their babel towers.

If you are good, and what we are doing here is good, then you need not experience a single sigh of contrition. Spirituality becomes magical, open-ended, and expanding to new possibilities.

Its possible to be unaware of sin, in which case you can't be tempted.

sooda said:
Christians have a mixed message. Man is created in the image of God, yet is born with a hereditary stain.. Blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin is very primitive.

That is a resourceful comment.

sojourner said:
That’s not what Genesis says. Or Pelagius, for that matter. Augustine did the Christian family a world of hurt in couching us as inherently sinful.

There are some interesting comments in this thread.

ideogenous_mover said:
What if we start instead, from the idea that we are innately good.

Sure, we can do that as a thought experiment. We can even theorize a good world that is plagued by a monstrous set of ideas. In that case we're assuming everybody is innately good but sometimes mislead or somehow tricked into making wrong decisions?

sooda · Dec 5, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
If a man does evil, then he turns from the good that he originally is. Why should he be stained with a flaw from the beginning?

I was referring to "original sin"..

Augustus · Dec 6, 2019

sojourner said:
That’s not what Genesis says.

Genesis says we are inherently good? Can't say I agree with that.

The Fall, Cain and Abel, etc.

I'm not aware of any ancient culture that saw humans as inherently good as their view of history didn't contain a redemptive teleology, just cyclical rises and falls.

Humans can do good, but equally they can do evil. They are also prone to hubris.

Anyway, I'm basing my beliefs on human history rather than scripture (although scripture is reflective of human history).

sojourner said:
Augustine did the Christian family a world of hurt in couching us as inherently sinful.

The idea that we are inherently good has also created a world of hurt via utopian ideologies that run into the problems of reality.

Mock Turtle · Dec 6, 2019

Augustus said:
The reality is we are an unusually violent bunch of mammalian primates. All of human history confirms this.

'We' seems to assume a majority, when this might not be the case, and where, as I have pointed out before, we don't usually get a vote as to when to go to war - we are all too easily manipulated by others or under their control, especially as to beliefs. As per many other species, much of our violence tends to come from competing for resources and/or increasing population. We seem to be getting less violent, perhaps because we have evolved ways to deal with such issues slightly better than in the past.

sojourner · Dec 6, 2019

Augustus said:
Genesis says we are inherently good? Can't say I agree with that.

We are created in God’s image (God is good), and when God looked at what a God had made, a God called it “very good.”

Augustus said:
The idea that we are inherently good has also created a world of hurt via utopian ideologies that run into the problems of reality.

I don’t see that. You’ll have to give me an example of such utopian ideologies.

Vinayaka · Dec 6, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
So when I was young and first read the bible, the driving ideas that I took away were about human nature. It declared that you human, are proud, guilty, shameful, sinful, selfish murderers of the son of god and prophets. Starting wars and turning away from god, always due for contrition. Looking back at it, I see myself as starting from a stark and narrow vision of the human role here

What if we start instead, from the idea that we are innately good. That our worldly interactions are good, that our ambition and enthusiasm does not demand we don the sackcloth of Jonah, that human worldly effort need not come under constant divine scrutiny

Who does not really believe it is that way anyway, who functions in our western society full of shame for pride in their efforts. If one goes through life successfully, they proudly wear the success they accrue, and rightly so. Great people build upon the world, where god says woodworms and moths will eat their worldly works, eroding their babel towers.

If you are good, and what we are doing here is good, then you need not experience a single sigh of contrition. Spirituality becomes magical, open-ended, and expanding to new possibilities.

Since good/bad is in the nature of dual thinking, or opposites thinking, it's more or less outside my paradigm. Still, the Hindu greeting, "I greet the divine within you," may help see my dharmic POV on this. I see everyone has having the spark of divine within them. Some souls have it more hidden that others. So, at the very essence of everyone is the divine, or God. So not only is it 'good' but it's also divine.

The layers that cover this divinity are the problem. That entails 3 bondages, called anava, karma, and maya. Primarily it's anava, which I personality would translate as basic ignorance, or more bluntly, basic stupidity. We all have it, some more than others. But it's not sin, or evil, in the way Abrahamic religions view it. Is the child who knows no better than to grab a candy evil?

In more pragmatic level, how do you wish to look at people ... assume they're all horrible people, or give them the benefit of the doubt? When you're introduced to someone new, like a new colleague, do you assume they're trustworthy, or do you assume, without any experience, that they're not? Start out trusting, learn to distrust, or start out distrusting, learn to trust.

lukethethird · Dec 6, 2019

The idea of spirituality that says humans are good
Humans are bad, at least the good ones are.

amorphous_constellation · Dec 6, 2019

Vinayaka said:
Some souls have it more hidden that others. So, at the very essence of everyone is the divine, or God. So not only is it 'good' but it's also divine.

That seems like a useful way to see it. So in other words, a human can obscure the soul within them if they choose to act evil, but it's still there somewhere. But some humans can definitely lock all that light into a safe. Still, I don't know if I am that optimistic about some people. Maybe I should be, hence I made this thread

Vinayaka said:
In more pragmatic level, how do you wish to look at people ... assume they're all horrible people, or give them the benefit of the doubt?

I kind of think that in western culture, we are pretty judgement heavy. The religions seem to be about judgement, and much kindness and good-will seems to be always sacrificed to the cult of growth.

Vinayaka · Dec 6, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
That seems like a useful way to see it. So in other words, a human can obscure the soul within them if they choose to act evil, but it's still there somewhere. But some humans can definitely lock all that light into a safe. Still, I don't know if I am that optimistic about some people. Maybe I should be, hence I made this thread

I kind of think that in western culture, we are pretty judgement heavy. The religions seem to be about judgement, and much kindness and good-will seems to be always sacrificed to the cult of growth.

Growth over people, yes, that's anava.

I wouldn't say I'm all that optimistic, but I am open with people. Once they've proven themselves one way or the other, then one can choose to remain friends/acquaintances or not. But I think we owe anyone the opportunity without pre-judging.

syo · Dec 7, 2019

Humans are capable of doing good and of doing evil. And here comes the CHOICE. Which path do we choose?

Sand Dancer · Dec 20, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
So when I was young and first read the bible, the driving ideas that I took away were about human nature. It declared that you human, are proud, guilty, shameful, sinful, selfish murderers of the son of god and prophets. Starting wars and turning away from god, always due for contrition. Looking back at it, I see myself as starting from a stark and narrow vision of the human role here

What if we start instead, from the idea that we are innately good. That our worldly interactions are good, that our ambition and enthusiasm does not demand we don the sackcloth of Jonah, that human worldly effort need not come under constant divine scrutiny

Who does not really believe it is that way anyway, who functions in our western society full of shame for pride in their efforts. If one goes through life successfully, they proudly wear the success they accrue, and rightly so. Great people build upon the world, where god says woodworms and moths will eat their worldly works, eroding their babel towers.

If you are good, and what we are doing here is good, then you need not experience a single sigh of contrition. Spirituality becomes magical, open-ended, and expanding to new possibilities.

The Bible says that God's creation is good, but yet, somehow people being people was a sin and human nature was apparently bad. Sounds like a disconnect from a clueless deity. We have the ability to do good or bad, depending on our motivation. Selfish motivations generally are not the best, depending on what they are. The concept of sin and eternal punishment was used to control people.

Glaurung · Dec 21, 2019

While I reject exaggerations of human nature as totally depraved I also reject sunny views of human nature that seek to downplay the reality of sin. Human nature as it exists right now is stained by its predisposition towards vice, selfishness, violence, delusion and concupiscence. Such is obvious with any clear-eyed look at the world.

Our internal disposition is the conflict in each and every one of us. Some of us reach great heights of virtue while others sink into depravity. Most of us stagnate somewhere in the middle.

Jesuslightoftheworld · Dec 21, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
So when I was young and first read the bible, the driving ideas that I took away were about human nature. It declared that you human, are proud, guilty, shameful, sinful, selfish murderers of the son of god and prophets. Starting wars and turning away from god, always due for contrition. Looking back at it, I see myself as starting from a stark and narrow vision of the human role here

What if we start instead, from the idea that we are innately good. That our worldly interactions are good, that our ambition and enthusiasm does not demand we don the sackcloth of Jonah, that human worldly effort need not come under constant divine scrutiny

Who does not really believe it is that way anyway, who functions in our western society full of shame for pride in their efforts. If one goes through life successfully, they proudly wear the success they accrue, and rightly so. Great people build upon the world, where god says woodworms and moths will eat their worldly works, eroding their babel towers.

If you are good, and what we are doing here is good, then you need not experience a single sigh of contrition. Spirituality becomes magical, open-ended, and expanding to new possibilities.

I believe that our “spirit” came from God. The world and worldly things are of the devil. We are trying to attain righteousness. But sin; pride, lust, envy, etc. cannot be righteous. That is why God gave us free will which is a beautiful thing. We then can chose humility, morality, and have a attitude of thankfulness.

Jesuslightoftheworld · Dec 21, 2019

Jesuslightoftheworld said:
I believe that our “spirit” came from God. The world and worldly things are of the devil. We are trying to attain righteousness. But sin; pride, lust, envy, etc. cannot be righteous. That is why God gave us free will which is a beautiful thing. We then can chose humility, morality, and have a attitude of thankfulness.

Also, we are made in God’s image. He feels anger, sadness, and is a jealous God but He is perfect.

Jesuslightoftheworld · Dec 21, 2019

Alone said:
Just food for thought here I don't really have an opinion on this topic, the son of God himself said that he was not good that only God was good Mathew 19:17

I believe that He was speaking about Himself. Because at that time He had not yet revealed that He was The Son of Man.

Jesuslightoftheworld · Dec 21, 2019

Thirza Fallen said:
The Bible says that God's creation is good, but yet, somehow people being people was a sin and human nature was apparently bad. Sounds like a disconnect from a clueless deity. We have the ability to do good or bad, depending on our motivation. Selfish motivations generally are not the best, depending on what they are. The concept of sin and eternal punishment was used to control people.

I believe that God loved us and wanted to be loved back. He wanted us to have a choice; He wanted us to chose Him. People can chose, but they also chose the consequences. Why would God want you in Heaven if you deny Him. It’s black and white.

Jesuslightoftheworld · Dec 21, 2019

Musing Bassist said:
While I reject exaggerations of human nature as totally depraved I also reject sunny views of human nature that seek to downplay the reality of sin. Human nature as it exists right now is stained by its predisposition towards vice, selfishness, violence, delusion and concupiscence. Such is obvious with any clear-eyed look at the world.

Our internal disposition is the

conflict in each and every one of us. Some of us reach great heights of virtue while others sink into depravity. Most of us stagnate somewhere in the middle.

I completely agree, the issue of sin is very real and has to be dealt with. It separates us from God. But God reconciled himself to man in Jesus Christ.

Jesuslightoftheworld · Dec 21, 2019

julianalexander745 said:
Seems like the only people who don't like humans are:

- Climate change enthusiasts
- Racists
- The violently religious
- Involuntary celibates
- Feminists
- Angry loners
- The unemployable
- Kangaroo Feathers

LOL!!

Jesuslightoftheworld · Dec 21, 2019

sooda said:
Christians have a mixed message. Man is created in the image of God, yet is born with a hereditary stain.. Blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin is very primitive.[/

sooda said:
Christians have a mixed message. Man is created in the image of God, yet is born with a hereditary stain.. Blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin is very primitive.

Yes we were created in his image. But we are human, we are not God. He is perfect and all righteous. Our sin is a stain and sin cannot be in God’s presence. Therefore, we are separated from God because of sin. There could be only one way to cleanse us of our sin, and that was for God to come in human form, sinless and blameless and willing to die so that we would be acceptable to God, thus cleansing us of our sin. That’s the atonement. We are dead in our sin, but Jesus made a way to be live on in eternity with God. Why? Because He lies us and wants us to be with Him.

Sand Dancer · Dec 21, 2019

Jesuslightoftheworld said:
I believe that God loved us and wanted to be loved back. He wanted us to have a choice; He wanted us to chose Him. People can chose, but they also chose the consequences. Why would God want you in Heaven if you deny Him. It’s black and white.

A good god would not make a place of eternal punishment when there is no chance to learn from your consequences. If Yahweh wanted love, he would not have killed or ordered the killing of millions in the OT who could have possibly changed their minds.

The idea of spirituality that says humans are good

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