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Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?

metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Muffled said:
I believe the belief required is grace not works.
Click to expand...
Using both the Sermon On the Mount (Mathew ch.12-14) and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew ch. 25) to formulate a response, it's apparent that it must be both.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
sooda said:
I have always thought "grace" was confusing.. Is it bestowed without merit by God to a select few.. Is grace another word for "faith". If it is the former, you could love God and be faithful and still miss the boat.
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I do believe it has to be something that we dedicate our lives to. IOW, a "lifestyle". Anything short of that might be problematic.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
I have always thought "grace" was confusing.. Is it bestowed without merit by God to a select few.. Is grace another word for "faith". If it is the former, you could love God and be faithful and still miss the boat.
Click to expand...
Grace is the unmerited favor for ANY who accept it. Not confusing at all.

You cannot love God, and by extension Christ, by faith and ever miss the boat.
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________
​
EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.​


So, which is it, and why?

.
Click to expand...

If I were a theologian and writer for the Catholic Church, I'd write a book about how there is a third way...

*Intentions*

...We are saved by our intentions.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
PearlSeeker said:
According to Daniel all will awake - some to everlasting life others to everlasting disgrace. Salvation is not just the continuation of life. It's also a quality that comes from inner transformation.
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That is inherent in having eternal life. Those who do not have salvation die eternally.
 
PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
That's why it only makes sense that you believe and "repent" (a bad translation of metanoia) - let yourself be transformed/renewed to enter new life with Lord (the kingdom). Not by just believing it will automatically happen after you die. Yes, God saves but how can you be friends with someone without building together a close relationship? Without preparing the way for your Lord?

Who may ascend the mountain of the LORD? Who may stand in his holy place? The one who has clean hands and a pure heart. (Psalm 24:3-4)​

Nothing impure will ever enter it... (Relevation 21:27)

And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE Lord /... / And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” (Luke 10:25-28)

Etc. ​

What will we take with us when we die? What will endure this "judgment"? Faith and hope are important guides but they remain only for this life (later we will know directly). Love is eternal. Love is the greatest. Without love I'm nothing.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
PearlSeeker said:
Love is eternal. Love is the greatest. Without love I'm nothing.
Click to expand...
Yes, and the Koine Greek word for love is "agape", and it is different than "love" in English and even other variations of "love" in Koine Greek. It is what we might call an "active noun", namely that in this use of the word one does not just have love but also lives out their love. IOW, it permeates their entire being.
 
kjw47

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Landon Caeli said:
If I were a theologian and writer for the Catholic Church, I'd write a book about how there is a third way...

*Intentions*

...We are saved by our intentions.
Click to expand...


Jesus made it clear to all at Matthew 7:21-23- Those living( now) to do Jesus' Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom. Jesus pointed out to all how that is accomplished--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God. Then one can accomplish these 2 very important teachings-- Matthew 6:33-- John 4:22-24
 
Iymus

Iymus

Active Member
Unless for whatever reason you are not allowed to mature and grow in the faith, you are saved by both grace and works.

Unlike a child or adult an infant does not need to worry about works. However as one comes of age and is matured, knowledge is supposed to naturally bring more power and responsibility/accountability as in all things.

Faith without works is dead
Salvation encompasses being saved and he that overcomes the world and endures until the end shall be saved.

Those that disagree I call them Pauline Pharisees: With their interpretations it is almost as if Paul is the only begotten Son of God.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
metis said:
Using both the Sermon On the Mount (Mathew ch.12-14) and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew ch. 25) to formulate a response, it's apparent that it must be both.
Click to expand...

I believe the sermon on the mount said nothing about being saved.

I believe you will find that the grace of God is sufficient for that. So then what is Jesus saying? I believe He is saying that you can't say you served Jesus as Lord if you decided to do your own thing instead.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________
​
EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.​


So, which is it, and why?

.
Click to expand...

Hi Skwim,

We are saved by grace because we didn't do anything to deserve salvation. It is because of God's grace that he made a plan, or way for us to be saved.

But another verse says we are saved by grace through faith. So we have to believe what his word says. Because if you don't believe it you won't obey it.

But it is also possible to believe something yet still not be obedient. That is why faith without works is dead. You have to obey it for it to be effective.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
Hi Skwim,

We are saved by grace because we didn't do anything to deserve salvation. It is because of God's grace that he made a plan, or way for us to be saved.

But another verse says we are saved by grace through faith. So we have to believe what his word says. Because if you don't believe it you won't obey it.

But it is also possible to believe something yet still not be obedient. That is why faith without works is dead. You have to obey it for it to be effective.
Click to expand...
Works are the RESULT of salvation and the indwelling Spirit, they are not the way to earn either.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
shmogie said:
Works are the RESULT of salvation and the indwelling Spirit, they are not the way to earn either.
Click to expand...

We are saved by works and not by faith only. James 2:24 But it is not talking about works of the law. For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 It means we must have works of obedience to our faith.

For instance Peter said in Acts 2:38 that we are to be baptized in the name for the remission of sins. We can believe the verse is true, but if we don't obey it we will not obtain forgiveness of our sins.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
We are saved by works and not by faith only. James 2:24 But it is not talking about works of the law. For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 It means we must have works of obedience to our faith.

For instance Peter said in Acts 2:38 that we are to be baptized in the name for the remission of sins. We can believe the verse is true, but if we don't obey it we will not obtain forgiveness of our sins.
Click to expand...
We are saved by FAITH ALONE.

If salvation can be earned by works, then there is no need for Grace, and if there is no need for Grace, then every person can be their own Christ, and if every person can be their own Christ, then Jesus's life, and death meant absolutely nothing and was a waste.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
shmogie said:
We are saved by FAITH ALONE.

If salvation can be earned by works, then there is no need for Grace, and if there is no need for Grace, then every person can be their own Christ, and if every person can be their own Christ, then Jesus's life, and death meant absolutely nothing and was a waste.
Click to expand...

You evidently didn't read the verse I referenced. James 2:24 says we ARE saved by works and not by faith alone.
 
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