I'm somewhere between an agnostic and an atheist.

Jonathan Bailey said:

I can't say I know for a fact whether god or gods exist. I can't say I know what to believe in regarding religion. I can say that the existence of god or gods is merely a possibility. I don't flat out deny the existence of god or gods as if I were to know their non-existence for a fact. I can say that the things Jesus Christ taught in the bible regarding human behavior and morals are true and that I believe Jesus Christ was a good person and I believe there historically was at least a mortal human named Jesus Christ. Whether Jesus Christ was the actual Son of God is questionable in my mind. The existence of an eternal heaven or hell is questionable in my mind.


I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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Atheism is a big tent. Most define it as a lack of belief in a god or gods which is not the same as saying that there is no god. Yes, someone that says there is no god is definitely an atheist, but then so is an agnostic that simply does not believe in a god. Call yourself what you like. If you don't want to call yourself an atheist you do not have to. But many people with similar beliefs have no problem saying that they are an atheist. I think part of the reluctance is the negative connotations associated with that word. There is no reason to have those. Atheists generally will accept you either way.

columbus said:

Although the "meddling sky king with superpowers" image of God is vastly more likely to be a figment of human imagination than anything real,

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But that immature conception of theism was rejected, even, by practically all learned medievals (especially the 'mystics' of the church):

Vouthon said:

But that immature conception of theism was rejected, even, by practically all learned medievals (especially the 'mystics' of the church):

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Nevertheless, it's still extremely common. Including among Catholics. The large majority of people aren't that sophisticated in terms of theological issues.

Then there're those hell bound Protestants...
Tom

Jonathan Bailey said:

I can't say I know for a fact whether god or gods exist. I can't say I know what to believe in regarding religion. I can say that the existence of god or gods is merely a possibility. I don't flat out deny the existence of god or gods as if I were to know their non-existence for a fact. I can say that the things Jesus Christ taught in the bible regarding human behavior and morals are true and that I believe Jesus Christ was a good person and I believe there historically was at least a mortal human named Jesus Christ. Whether Jesus Christ was the actual Son of God is questionable in my mind. The existence of an eternal heaven or hell is questionable in my mind.


I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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What tool(s) are using to determine your stance? If you only option is either Christianity or Atheism/agnosticism then, you are already off to a bad start. I am not here to tell you to be part of any religion as I (a deist) as of this post, do not subscribe to any religion. My suggestion (and its nothing more than that) is to check your "toolbox" and make sure you are going about this the right, rational and logical way first, if you don't know how to do that, reach out and ask those who do, or search for those who do.

Jonathan Bailey said:

I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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This is so because you missed the big picture.

First is why humans even need a God. It's human nature to take care of one's own foreseeable future. That's why when you hit certain age you need to consider the pensions. The point is how foreseeable your future can be. That's where you need a God for.

Humans don't have a capability to tell a future of their own, and how could such a future potentially affect them. That's the information they need. Once you can confirm that you need money to live on, you thus need to prepare the pension. Then how far away should one prepare his future. You have to make up your mind here by faith, no matter what.

By the assumption out of faith that life ends with our physical death, then it's a lot easier for you to take care of your future. However even today's science can't confirm so. You faith is for you to assume more than our science capable of in the case that your faith has to mark your physical death as the end. There's no evidence to back up your this faith either, unless you use the absence of evidence as the evidence of absence, which is a typical fallacy. With this faith in place, you thus don't need God.

The other assumption by faith is that we don't take a stance to conclude the "life ends here". We continue seeking. However since future cannot be told by men, humans could possibly get to what future is by means of a God. God remains the only possible source we can acquire information on a future. That's how humans need a God. All left is whether such a God exists, and how we can approach Him if He exists.

So the first choice before anything is that whether you'd like to stay with a faith that "life ends here". If you decided to uphold this common belief as your religion then you don't need to continue your journey of seeking. You already had an answer of faith.

On the other hand if you are to continue your journey then a God has to be assumed, who you need to seek out His existence or not. So naturally the next question is how humans can possibly confirm the existence of such a God from whom we can acquire the information of a future.

Jonathan Bailey said:

I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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You are what you are but i am not a liar.

I know no gods exist, the concept is just silly.

There could be beings sufficiently advanced to seem as gods to some of the more gullible but that is not a god.

To believe one or more of these beings made the universe? Wow...

And to believe the being(s) chose a backwater planet in an insignificant solar system situated about the middle of the (currently) western spiral arm of a really quite small galaxy among over 100 billion galaxies decided it was a perfect planet to create people to worship it or them is so far fetched it passes ridiculous.

Then we get to the local stuff.

What creator god would create life to worship it and then create other life to kill his prize creation?
What compassionate god would inflict leukemia on an innocent child?
What caring god would allow unnecessary suffering?

I am not a liar becsuse i consider the reality and outcomes of god believer claims.

However, i might be mistaken, if some being turned up and proved it was a god beyond doubt (as a god if would know how to do this). Then it would need to answer some very searching questions before i changed my mind.

But its a possibility.

God has all the capability to not to leave any evidence for men, if He for a reason decides to hide from humans. If He has a will to hide from humans but humans somehow have acquired the empirical evidence of His existence then God is thus not all powerful as He failed to hide from men when He would like to.

So the next question for men to ask is,
by the current fact of status a God didn't show up to humans so there's no God if a self claimed God doesn't present the good reason why He has to hide behind. If a God didn't provide the answer for such an argument, the chances are He's either not a God or He doesn't care about humans. You can't get to an sincere answer of your future from such an indifferent God who chose to hide behind but failed to provide a good reason.

In Christianity, God has a covenant for men, which says men need to be saved by faith. A covenant needs to be abide by both sides. God thus won't show up to humans or else He Himself violates the covenant with the consequence that men can no longer be saved by faith. Do other religions provide a similar answer why God has to hide behind especially when it is said that a hell is waiting for humans?

The next question,
If God has a good reason to hide from humans completely then how can humans possibly get to know a future from this hidden God at all? There must be a way in between so that we can continue our journey of seeking. This "midway" is closed tied to the next most efficient way for a truth to convey, which may be be reckoned by humans.

In this reality, humans read facts from testimonies instead of evidence, such as history, such as daily news and even science. We don't dig evidence before we get to all kinds of facts. That's why among the 100% humans know for a fact that black holes exist, 99% of them don't have the evidence. We don't rely on evidence to get to this piece of scientific fact (may be to your surprise)! In the end, the majority of humans get to this fact by means of the testimonies of our scientists. We deemed their witnessing as trustworthy and credible.

Same the same, you can't basically prove history as it is made up of human testimonies. George Washington said <put whatever quote here>. How can you evidence that he actually said so? That piece of info (on what Washington said) is from testimonies and can hardly be evidenced. However somehow it remains the only way for humans to get to this piece of fact. Unlike a scientific fact which can repeat infinitive number of times in front of us, historical facts we acquire from testimonies may not be proved at all.

If God is true and He has a good reason to hide, thus all we can acquire are historical facts which can only be conveyed through human testimonies. He shows up to the chosen eyewitnesses for their testimonies to flow then for the rest of human kind to believe with faith. That's how it works.

How can you tell that an invisible entity is God, even when He's encountered by an eyewitness? There are two things men usually cannot do as they are not lying within humans' capability, 1) tell a future and 2) break our physics laws. God performs miracles and tells futures through the mouth of His chosen witnesses. That's why His witnesses are called the prophets, for a reason.

There are more I can reason with you, but next time...good luck.

Jonathan Bailey said:

I can't say I know for a fact whether god or gods exist. I can't say I know what to believe in regarding religion. I can say that the existence of god or gods is merely a possibility. I don't flat out deny the existence of god or gods as if I were to know their non-existence for a fact. I can say that the things Jesus Christ taught in the bible regarding human behavior and morals are true and that I believe Jesus Christ was a good person and I believe there historically was at least a mortal human named Jesus Christ. Whether Jesus Christ was the actual Son of God is questionable in my mind. The existence of an eternal heaven or hell is questionable in my mind.


I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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well, I know the feeling. It is really intellectually excruciating.

I also cannot decide, for what concerns beliefs with equal evidence as God’s, like the belief in Mother Goose, for instance, whether I am more agnostic about Mother Goose or more like an a-mothergooist. The latter seems indeed a bit too radical and illogical. After all, I did not inspect all corners of the universe to rule out the existence of Mother Goose.

the same with garden fairies. Logic would dictate that since we cannot prove that garden fairies do not exist, we should be agnostic about that. And I know fairists who are more understanding if I declare agnosticism about fairies, rather than a radical and unscientific afairism. You should see their face when I say I am agnostic about the blue fairy, vs. I am a afairist. They seem to like the former a lot more.

i admit is not the same at cocktail parties when I say I cannot be 100% sure that fairies did not eat my carrots, and therefore it is entirely possible they did. For I am agnostic about the existence of garden fairies.They all look funny at me, for some reason.

tricky. Very tricky. That huge difference keeps me awake at night.

ciao

- viole

viole said:

Logic would dictate that since we cannot prove that garden fairies do not exist, we should be agnostic about that.

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My grandpa believed in fairies. He didn't call them that. He didn't talk about them much at all, because they don't like being discussed. But he took care of them, and they took care of him.
Mostly.

Do things that they like and they'll produce small change when you need it or make your tomatoes extra big and succulent. Do things that they don't like and they'll spoil your milk or hide your cigarette lighter.

He didn't call them fairies, he referred vaguely to the little people. But it's the same thing, as far as I can tell. Rather like God, only smaller than humans instead of larger. Quite the same, in terms of evidenciary standards.

And somehow, it didn't conflict with his staunch Roman Catholicism. When the subject is religion and the supernatural....


Could be anything.

Tom

Jonathan Bailey said:

I can't say I know for a fact whether god or gods exist. I can't say I know what to believe in regarding religion. I can say that the existence of god or gods is merely a possibility. I don't flat out deny the existence of god or gods as if I were to know their non-existence for a fact. I can say that the things Jesus Christ taught in the bible regarding human behavior and morals are true and that I believe Jesus Christ was a good person and I believe there historically was at least a mortal human named Jesus Christ. Whether Jesus Christ was the actual Son of God is questionable in my mind. The existence of an eternal heaven or hell is questionable in my mind.


I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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I think it is fairly easy to say that God does not exist as a literal physical reality except in terms of human psychology where God definitely has some more than trivial objective reality.

You will never get a video of a god without a human being in that video communicating about that god.

Jonathan Bailey said:

I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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People are entitled to their beliefs, though.

columbus said:

My grandpa believed in fairies. He didn't call them that. He didn't talk about them much at all, because they don't like being discussed. But he took care of them, and they took care of him.
Mostly.

Do things that they like and they'll produce small change when you need it or make your tomatoes extra big and succulent. Do things that they don't like and they'll spoil your milk or hide your cigarette lighter.

He didn't call them fairies, he referred vaguely to the little people. But it's the same thing, as far as I can tell. Rather like God, only smaller than humans instead of larger. Quite the same, in terms of evidenciary standards.

And somehow, it didn't conflict with his staunch Roman Catholicism. When the subject is religion and the supernatural....


Could be anything.

Tom

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I don't even think anything written in the bible claims to confirm the existence of fairies or otherwise claims to rule them out. The bible speaks of angels but they aren't the same as fairies, are they? Monsters are also mentioned in scripture but what is a MONSTER really?

Jonathan Bailey said:

I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar.

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They can't be merely wrong?

I'm being honest here.

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Other people can be too....even those who believe
things which are wrong or not even wrong.

Revoltingest said:

They can't be merely wrong?

Other people can be too....even those who believe
things which are wrong or not even wrong.

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I suppose they can "think" they "know" that "god doesn't exist" in their own minds but could be mistaken without malicious intent to lie.

Yes, I'll retract my statement about gnostic atheists. There have been times on school quizzes where I "thought" I "knew" the answer I gave on the test was correct but it turned out later to be wrong. Yes, I'll now admit people can wrongfully and innocently think they know something to be true which is really false. To err is human.

Jonathan Bailey said:

I can't say I know for a fact whether god or gods exist. I can't say I know what to believe in regarding religion. I can say that the existence of god or gods is merely a possibility. I don't flat out deny the existence of god or gods as if I were to know their non-existence for a fact. I can say that the things Jesus Christ taught in the bible regarding human behavior and morals are true and that I believe Jesus Christ was a good person and I believe there historically was at least a mortal human named Jesus Christ. Whether Jesus Christ was the actual Son of God is questionable in my mind. The existence of an eternal heaven or hell is questionable in my mind.


I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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Some critical thinking of the attributes of a biblical God...
1. Omniscient - all knowing, future and past, what will be...

• Is bidirectional time travel possible? To know the future would mean everything has happened before. To know perfectly the future would mean to observe the future and go back into the past to foretell it.
• If bidirectional time travel is possible then free will is an illusion.
• If free will is true then foretelling the future is impossible.

2. Omnipresent - everywhere present, any time present

• Bidirectional time travel plus the ability to travel inter galacticlly or interuniversally or interdimensionallly would have to be possible for an intelligent entity.
• Or physicall portion of the body of the entity is the universe.

3. Omnipotent - all powerful

• Is there possible universal control of all elements anytime and anywhere.
• Is it possible to control space time?
• Is it possible to control events if you allow free will?

If there is an interacting "God" its limited to the same physics all beings it interacts with are.

Maybe the definition of a realistic "God" should be made first.... the title is way too spitualized by human imagination.

Jonathan Bailey said:

I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

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My trouble is that I don't know what real thing ─ what thing with objective existence ─ the word 'god' (or 'God') is intended to denote, and no one so far has been able to tell me.

So unless and until I find out, all I can say is that it appears imaginary gods exist in abundance; and no one seems to be clear on any other kind.

But since imaginary gods ─ the idea of a personal god, rather than the god [him]self ─ seem to serve the needs of many people, we might suspect that's sufficient.

Jonathan Bailey said:

I don't even think anything written in the bible claims to confirm the existence of fairies or otherwise claims to rule them out. The bible speaks of angels but they aren't the same as fairies, are they? Monsters are also mentioned in scripture but what is a MONSTER really?

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The post I quoted wasn't about Scripture, it was about using logic and reason.
The reason I brought up grandpa was that he believed in fairies. To me it was a weird superstition. But to him it was quite real.

I'm sure he was taught this by his own very superstitious parents. They were extremely uneducated Irish folks, fleeing the disaster that was Ireland in the late 19th century. His own education wasn't much better, he was barely literate. But he had evidence sufficient to keep believing. When his tomatoes were extra good, he knew he'd been keeping the little people happy. If something bad happened, he'd think back about what he did to annoy them. Then figure out what he needed to do to make them happy again. He'd do it until the lost item was found or whatever. Then he knew he'd resolved the issue.

For most of human history, people didn't even have as much information about the world as he had. They used similar superstitions to feel more in control than they really were. Eventually, the beliefs grew into what we generically call religion.
At least, that's what I think happened. Also, the fact that the ruling elite could use the beliefs to acquire and maintain power and wealth caused religion to become a dominant force in most societies.
Tom

Jonathan Bailey said:

I can't say I know for a fact whether god or gods exist. I can't say I know what to believe in regarding religion. I can say that the existence of god or gods is merely a possibility. I don't flat out deny the existence of god or gods as if I were to know their non-existence for a fact. I can say that the things Jesus Christ taught in the bible regarding human behavior and morals are true and that I believe Jesus Christ was a good person and I believe there historically was at least a mortal human named Jesus Christ. Whether Jesus Christ was the actual Son of God is questionable in my mind. The existence of an eternal heaven or hell is questionable in my mind.


I believe that any human who says he knows that
any god or gods don't exist for a fact is a flat-out liar. I also believe that any human who claims that he knows a god or gods exist for a fact MIGHT just be on the level but there is still no way for me to verify whether what he is saying is true.

I'm being honest here.

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Of course you can verify scriptural claims:

* the love of Jesus
* the logic of Jesus's atonement (morally perfect in Heaven imperfect people, so they can be citizens contributing to a perfect place)
* scientific wonders/accuracies of the Bible
* fulfilled prophecies, including more than 60 fulfilled by Israel since 1948
* the astoundingly wise advice of the Bible on relationships, human progress, money, etc.
* etc.

Hawkins said:

If God is true and He has a good reason to hide, thus all we can acquire are historical facts which can only be conveyed through human testimonies. He shows up to the chosen eyewitnesses for their testimonies to flow then for the rest of human kind to believe with faith. That's how it works.

How can you tell that an invisible entity is God, even when He's encountered by an eyewitness? There are two things men usually cannot do as they are not lying within humans' capability, 1) tell a future and 2) break our physics laws. God performs miracles and tells futures through the mouth of His chosen witnesses. That's why His witnesses are called the prophets, for a reason.

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There is also experiental (mystical) knowledge. It's for all. Some are just more gifted. "For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened."