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is Christmas Pagan?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What mess?
You mean the mess that the bible claims we are in and for which it conveniently provides the only cure?

What mess? Can you be specific?
And actually point it out please, without any bible preaching.

If we REALLY are in a mess, then you wouldn't have to need to refer to the bible to point it out.

For example, if there is an article saying that I have a tumor, you could just point out the tumor, without having to rely on the article, right? If the tumor is actually real, that is.

So, what mess?

How are things where you live?

* Climate change means extreme climatic conditions that scientists attribute to human pollution, most especially through the burning of fossil fuels. If you have not experienced the results of climate change, then you perhaps live on the moon....?

Half of Australia is on fire right now. Summer temperatures are set to rise to record levels. We even had to add a higher fire risk rating.
The Northern hemisphere will experience the opposite....but extremes, none the less.
Island nations are already experiencing inundation as polar ice shelves melt at an alarming rate.
Climate change is no accident, as David Attenborough will tell you.

* Pollution of our oceans with plastic waste is chocking waterways and threatening all the marine creatures. Why is there still plastic being produced? They have known about this problem for over 10 years!

The tons of artificial chemicals produced every year are also polluting the oceans and the land, and the drugs and hormones that humans take, make their way from sewage treatment works to the oceans and waterways, affecting the fish we eat.....as well as the sprays used in agriculture which are also contaminating our oceans and ground water supplies and making their way into the food we eat......

Then there is air pollution........All of these things are threatening our prime resources. We cannot continue existing on this planet if this continues. Humans have done this, and no one is in a hurry to stop it or to fix it because greed for profit drives everything.

* The moral climate is such that children today have no security of family anymore. Their parents are not worried about maintaining relationships, but throwing away the family unit to accommodate their own sexual needs and desires.
Teenagers today have the morals of alley cats and STD's are on the rise, even though we don't hear much about them.
The only way to get STD's is through sex with multiple partners. You can have sex with a single partner a hundred times a day and as long as you are both virgins, they will not get an STD. Homosexual sex presents it own medical problems.

The fall of the Roman Empire was not caused by a conquering nation, but by decay from within. Their hedonistic lifestyle destroyed the family unit, and the fabric of society unravelled. Rome fell due to its own decadence. We see all the same elements in today's world. When humans do not learn from the past mistakes of others, they are doomed to repeat them.....and here we are.

* Health problems at this time are out of control. Western health is contending with poor food choices and an epidemic of obesity. Auto-Immune diseases are rampant because of artificial environmental causes. Medical science is useless at diagnosing them or treating them. More artificial chemicals just exacerbate the problem. Death from prescription drugs is higher than from illegal drugs.
The epidemic of mental health problems as well as depressive illness increases, as drug and alcohol addiction continue to affect millions.

*Technology is affecting our young people in ways that are not healthy. It is changing the way they interact and there are warnings about the problems of increasing radiation by the constant use of their devices. It is isolating them and causing anti-social behavior.

Poorer nations still battle with malnutrition and high infant mortality. Both sides of this situation are extreme and entirely preventable. All we need to do is get back to nature and self sufficiency. There are many who are waking up to this, but too late, I fear.

* Political unrest has never been experienced on the scale that is seen at present. The sea of humanity has never been more restless or dissatisfied with their governance. Country after country have taken to the streets to make their discontent heard.

What more do you need to describe the "mess" we call life in this pathetically selfish world?
Did I mention the Bible once?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
How are things where you live?

* Climate change means extreme climatic conditions that scientists attribute to human pollution, most especially through the burning of fossil fuels. If you have not experienced the results of climate change, then you perhaps live on the moon....?

Half of Australia is on fire right now. Summer temperatures are set to rise to record levels. We even had to add a higher fire risk rating.
The Northern hemisphere will experience the opposite....but extremes, none the less.
Island nations are already experiencing inundation as polar ice shelves melt at an alarming rate.
Climate change is no accident, as David Attenborough will tell you.

* Pollution of our oceans with plastic waste is chocking waterways and threatening all the marine creatures. Why is there still plastic being produced? They have known about this problem for over 10 years!

The tons of artificial chemicals produced every year are also polluting the oceans and the land, and the drugs and hormones that humans take, make their way from sewage treatment works to the oceans and waterways, affecting the fish we eat.....as well as the sprays used in agriculture which are also contaminating our oceans and ground water supplies and making their way into the food we eat......

Then there is air pollution........All of these things are threatening our prime resources. We cannot continue existing on this planet if this continues. Humans have done this, and no one is in a hurry to stop it or to fix it because greed for profit drives everything.

* The moral climate is such that children today have no security of family anymore. Their parents are not worried about maintaining relationships, but throwing away the family unit to accommodate their own sexual needs and desires.
Teenagers today have the morals of alley cats and STD's are on the rise, even though we don't hear much about them.
The only way to get STD's is through sex with multiple partners. You can have sex with a single partner a hundred times a day and as long as you are both virgins, they will not get an STD. Homosexual sex presents it own medical problems.

The fall of the Roman Empire was not caused by a conquering nation, but by decay from within. Their hedonistic lifestyle destroyed the family unit, and the fabric of society unravelled. Rome fell due to its own decadence. We see all the same elements in today's world. When humans do not learn from the past mistakes of others, they are doomed to repeat them.....and here we are.

* Health problems at this time are out of control. Western health is contending with poor food choices and an epidemic of obesity. Auto-Immune diseases are rampant because of artificial environmental causes. Medical science is useless at diagnosing them or treating them. More artificial chemicals just exacerbate the problem. Death from prescription drugs is higher than from illegal drugs.
The epidemic of mental health problems as well as depressive illness increases, as drug and alcohol addiction continue to affect millions.

*Technology is affecting our young people in ways that are not healthy. It is changing the way they interact and there are warnings about the problems of increasing radiation by the constant use of their devices. It is isolating them and causing anti-social behavior.

Poorer nations still battle with malnutrition and high infant mortality. Both sides of this situation are extreme and entirely preventable. All we need to do is get back to nature and self sufficiency. There are many who are waking up to this, but too late, I fear.

* Political unrest has never been experienced on the scale that is seen at present. The sea of humanity has never been more restless or dissatisfied with their governance. Country after country have taken to the streets to make their discontent heard.

What more do you need to describe the "mess" we call life in this pathetically selfish world?
Did I mention the Bible once?
Ehh, you can get STDs through avenues other than sex. There’s a reason for clean needle exchanges and more thorough screenings of blood after all. Also some are simply inherited. Syphilis can be spread through kissing as can Herpes. STDs can be spread through having sex with multiple sex partners, but it’s not the only way they spread.
Also Rome fell for a myriad of factors. No historian worth their salt gives much credence to the “decadent” argument. At least not by itself. Over inflation and over extending were their “sins.”
Although climate change will probably kill us all in the end. Thanks corporate greed! Ya ********!
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ehh, you can get STDs through avenues other than sex. There’s a reason for clean needle exchanges and more thorough screenings of blood after all. Also some are simply inherited. Syphilis can be spread through kissing as can Herpes. STDs can be spread through having sex with multiple sex partners, but it’s not the only way they spread.
Also Rome fell for a myriad of factors. No historian worth their salt gives much credence to the “decadent” argument. At least not by itself. Over inflation and over extending were their “sins.”

Why pick only those two?
The only way to get STD's is to break God's laws. Drug addiction is against God's Law. To contract the disease in the first place and then using a needle and injecting the contaminated blood of someone who acquired it sexually, is equally wrong IMO. Consumption of blood is against God's Laws. Syphilis is an STD spread by body fluids as is AIDS. Immoral sex caused it in the first place....that is against God's Law. The various methods of contraction are irrelevant because it was initially caused by the breaking of God's Law...and more often than not spread by illicit sex.

As for the fall of Rome......one source cites 8 reasons for why Rome fell....

I picked these five...

*Economic troubles and overreliance on slave labor.

*Overexpansion and military overspending.

*Government corruption and political instability.

*The arrival of the Huns and the migration of the Barbarian tribes.

*Christianity and the loss of traditional values.

https://www.history.com/news/8-reasons-why-rome-fell

Put these into a modern setting and you have your answer. The "decadence thing" is part of the loss of traditional values. The things I mentioned I believe fit into these categories.

Although climate change will probably kill us all in the end. Thanks corporate greed! Ya ********!
Greed is responsible for all our woes.....whether its corporate or governmental or commercial.....it comes out of a desire for wealth, position and power.

We are witnessing 'the end of the world' as we know it, because this time its a global situation not just in one geographical location.
The fall will be monumental......as it is predicted in the Bible for the times we are living in right now. I have every reason to believe that the Bible is spot on.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Not true. There are other ways to get stds without breaking laws that people attribute to God.

I think you missed the point. What starts STD's...? The means of transmission is not that important. It's what causes the STD's that are against God's laws. And what spreads them is almost always sleeping around. God's Laws are always given for a reason....he knows how he made us......we are supposed to be monogamous. And as long as we follow his guidelines, we protect ourselves from the ugly side of illicit sex.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Why pick only those two?
The only way to get STD's is to break God's laws. Drug addiction is against God's Law. To contract the disease in the first place and then using a needle and injecting the contaminated blood of someone who acquired it sexually, is equally wrong IMO. Consumption of blood is against God's Laws. Syphilis is an STD spread by body fluids as is AIDS. Immoral sex caused it in the first place....that is against God's Law. The various methods of contraction are irrelevant because it was initially caused by the breaking of God's Law...and more often than not spread by illicit sex.
.
You said the only way to contract STDs is to have sex with multiple partners. That is blantantly false. I thought you were not supposed to bear false witness?
Fun little tidbit, it’s commonly thought that HIV was passed to humans through eating “contaminated” bush meat.
Also no one consumes blood. Vampires don’t exist in real life, unfortunately.
Unless you count leeches or mosquitos or ticks, I guess.


As for the fall of Rome......one source cites 8 reasons for why Rome fell....

I picked these five...

*Economic troubles and overreliance on slave labor.

*Overexpansion and military overspending.

*Government corruption and political instability.

*The arrival of the Huns and the migration of the Barbarian tribes.

*Christianity and the loss of traditional values.

https://www.history.com/news/8-reasons-why-rome-fell

Put these into a modern setting and you have your answer. The "decadence thing" is part of the loss of traditional values. The things I mentioned I believe fit into these categories.
Uhh you realise in context that “traditional values” was referring to the old pagan religions, right? Your source specifically blames Christianity for supplementing the original religion and corrupting their old pre Christian values.
Unless you’re championing for pre Christian Pagan values??? I mean that’s certainly an interesting display of cross cultural acceptance, so I applaud your open mindedness.

Greed is responsible for all our woes.....whether its corporate or governmental or commercial.....it comes out of a desire for wealth, position and power.
That we can agree on.


We are witnessing 'the end of the world' as we know it, because this time its a global situation not just in one geographical location.
The fall will be monumental......as it is predicted in the Bible for the times we are living in right now. I have every reason to believe that the Bible is spot on.
People have been crying about the end of the world as we know it since human language was invented. You guys aren’t special, other religious movements have been basically saying the same thing for literally generations now. And in increasingly boring ways.
It’s the Kali Yuga, it’s the end times, it’s Armageddon, it’s the apocalypse etc etc etc.
It’s practically a Hollywood cliche at this point.
I mean jeez, if God is going to destroy the Earth I wish he’d hurry up already. The end of the world meme got old back in ancient times. It hasn’t gotten any less boring in the mean time.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
You said the only way to contract STDs is to have sex with multiple partners. That is blantantly false. I thought you were not supposed to bear false witness?
Fun little tidbit, it’s commonly thought that HIV was passed to humans through eating “contaminated” bush meat.
Also no one consumes blood. Vampires don’t exist in real life, unfortunately.
Unless you count leeches or mosquitos or ticks, I guess.



Uhh you realise in context that “traditional values” was referring to the old pagan religions, right? Your source specifically blames Christianity for supplementing the original religion and corrupting their old pre Christian values.
Unless you’re championing for pre Christian Pagan values??? I mean that’s certainly an interesting display of cross cultural acceptance, so I applaud your open mindedness.

That we can agree on.



People have been crying about the end of the world as we know it since human language was invented. You guys aren’t special, other religious movements have been basically saying the same thing for literally generations now. And in increasingly boring ways.
It’s the Kali Yuga, it’s the end times, it’s Armageddon, it’s the apocalypse etc etc etc.
It’s practically a Hollywood cliche at this point.
I mean jeez, if God is going to destroy the Earth I wish he’d hurry up already. The end of the world meme got old back in ancient times. It hasn’t gotten any less boring in the mean time.

The Bible allows for commemorations. Purim being an example.

Is Christmas pagan? probably depends on how one goes about it. Is Jesus at the center or is Santa or something else at the center? Some Christmas celebrations are Christ centered, some are Christ absent.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You said the only way to contract STDs is to have sex with multiple partners. That is blantantly false. I thought you were not supposed to bear false witness?

Not beneath emotional blackmail huh? o_O Nice try. It doesn't work on me...sorry.

What I said was...."The only way to get STD's is through sex with multiple partners. You can have sex with a single partner a hundred times a day and as long as you are both virgins, they will not get an STD."

Having sex with multiple partners is how it starts...and then it is transmitted by a number of ways, most of which involve breaking God's laws... Where was the false witness?

Fun little tidbit, it’s commonly thought that HIV was passed to humans through eating “contaminated” bush meat.

One explanation I heard was that it was let loose in the homosexual community to stifle the numbers somewhat. Something about an experiment with rhesus monkeys and the virus escaping.....dunno if its true, perhaps we will never know.....its was one of the most devastating viruses to afflict human beings. Took out some very famous people....:oops:

Also no one consumes blood.

Yes they do. Ask a Scott about black pudding.

Blood as food - Wikipedia

Vampires don’t exist in real life, unfortunately.
Unless you count leeches or mosquitos or ticks, I guess.

Yes, there are creatures who borrow blood from others in order to incubate their offspring. Unfortunately blood borne diseases are also passed on to humans that way. Bit like a shared needle....

Uhh you realise in context that “traditional values” was referring to the old pagan religions, right? Your source specifically blames Christianity for supplementing the original religion and corrupting their old pre Christian values.

Actually, one of the values they held in common with Christians was the "Familia".

"The "familia" in Rome included more than just the basic family of father, mother, and children. It also included all the people who were part of the household such as the slaves, servants, clients, and freedmen. As a result, some families in Rome grew quite large." (Google search)

"The central values that Romans believed their ancestors had established covered what we might call uprightness, faithfulness, respect, and status. These values had many different effects on Romans' attitudes and behaviors, depending on the social context, and Roman values often interrelated and overlapped." (Google search)

Sounds like some shared values to me.
So, destruction of the family was in large part the disintegration of society.

Unless you’re championing for pre Christian Pagan values??? I mean that’s certainly an interesting display of cross cultural acceptance, so I applaud your open mindedness.

That we can agree on.
No, sorry...not even close. :p Some of the values were shared....go figure.

People have been crying about the end of the world as we know it since human language was invented. You guys aren’t special, other religious movements have been basically saying the same thing for literally generations now. And in increasingly boring ways.
It’s the Kali Yuga, it’s the end times, it’s Armageddon, it’s the apocalypse etc etc etc.
It’s practically a Hollywood cliche at this point.
I mean jeez, if God is going to destroy the Earth I wish he’d hurry up already. The end of the world meme got old back in ancient times. It hasn’t gotten any less boring in the mean time.

Be careful what you wish for :rolleyes:.....sometimes boring is better than overexcitement...or dread.

Everything comes to those who wait......God is not confined to Earth time ya know.
I am very patient. :D
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I think you missed the point. What starts STD's...? The means of transmission is not that important. It's what causes the STD's that are against God's laws. And what spreads them is almost always sleeping around. God's Laws are always given for a reason....he knows how he made us......we are supposed to be monogamous. And as long as we follow his guidelines, we protect ourselves from the ugly side of illicit sex.

Do you have an example of an std that was started with illicit sex?

Admittedly, sex is a great way to spread disease, since it involves the swapping of bodily fluid. But given that many stds can be transmitted in other ways (do we know of any stds specifically designed for sexual transmission?) it suggests that they weren't originally divine retribution for sexual escapades.

Also, how do we know God's laws concerning sex?

And beyond that, isn't using disease as a fingerprint for divine ire problematic given the wide range of diseases that effect even the most pious of souls?
 
There was a pre-Christian festival for the birth of Horus on the 25th of Dec. There also seems to be a tradition of the sun being born/reborn around the time of the winter solstice.

Countless cultures have marked the solstices as they are tangible astronomical events. The idea of 'stealing' a festival for marketing purposes relies on there being a significant festival to steal in the 4th C Roman Empire though.

It also assumes that the purpose of dating Jesus' birth was to create a festival. As we know Christmas is an important holy day now, we assume it must have been important as soon as it was dated.

Wanting to identify when Jesus was born for calendrical purposes doesn't necessitate wanting to celebrate this as a feast day though.


So while scholars seem to be unsure about a pagan influence and that the date may have been chosen based on calculations related to his birth, I personally think there may be a possible influence. It just seems like a strange coincidence that the sun or Horus(sun god) was said to be born on Dec 25th and then Jesus's birth ends up being on the same day.

Jesus was associated with the Sun, but not necessarily because of an Egyptian deity:

"But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves." Malachi 4:2

Jesus' death was identified from Judeo-Christian theological calculation deriving from creation/the first passover:

Thanks to the paschal table of Hippolytus, we can be sure that 25 March played an important role in Christian chronology as the date of the crucifixion since at least the early third century, thus laying the ground for an influential calendrical tradition in the Western church.
TC Schmidt - Calculating December 25 as the Birth of Jesus in Hippolytus’ Canon and Chronicon

If 25 Dec is calculated from this date, it has nothing to do with other deities. While it may be no accident that the solstices are involved, there may well be 'Christian' reasons for this.

Religions don't appear out of a vacuum and are obviously influenced by the cultures in which they develop, this doesn't necessitate deliberate appropriation. Given the schisms that had already developed by the 3rd/4th C, deliberate appropriation of pagan customs would not help your sect to promote its case as the 'true' Christianity, and could be expected to produce a backlash from rival groups.
 
The fall of the Roman Empire was not caused by a conquering nation, but by decay from within. Their hedonistic lifestyle destroyed the family unit, and the fabric of society unravelled. Rome fell due to its own decadence. We see all the same elements in today's world. When humans do not learn from the past mistakes of others, they are doomed to repeat them.....and here we are.

The major flaw in this argument is that the Roman Empire continued until 1453.

Their decadence was such that they were only able to maintain power for another 1000 years.

Uhh you realise in context that “traditional values” was referring to the old pagan religions, right? Your source specifically blames Christianity for supplementing the original religion and corrupting their old pre Christian values.
Unless you’re championing for pre Christian Pagan values??? I mean that’s certainly an interesting display of cross cultural acceptance, so I applaud your open mindedness.

Christianity did play a role in the fall of the Roman Empire, although this was when the 'Crusaders'/Venice sacked Constantinople in 1203 and weakened the (Byzantine) Roman Empire so much it never really recovered.

The Emperor was himself a worshipper of Zeus and he transformed Zeus into Jesus in the minds of his subjects. The fusion of "Christianity" (which by the fourth century had descended into the full-on apostasy that Jesus foretold) and Roman sun worship, worked well for him because all that the RCC introduced by way of central doctrine, is still held in Christendom to the present day.

The sectarian myths of the Reformation are alive and kicking still :D
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
How are things where you live?

Chillax.

* Climate change means extreme climatic conditions that scientists attribute to human pollution, most especially through the burning of fossil fuels. If you have not experienced the results of climate change, then you perhaps live on the moon....?

Half of Australia is on fire right now. Summer temperatures are set to rise to record levels. We even had to add a higher fire risk rating.
The Northern hemisphere will experience the opposite....but extremes, none the less.
Island nations are already experiencing inundation as polar ice shelves melt at an alarming rate.
Climate change is no accident, as David Attenborough will tell you.

* Pollution of our oceans with plastic waste is chocking waterways and threatening all the marine creatures. Why is there still plastic being produced? They have known about this problem for over 10 years!

The tons of artificial chemicals produced every year are also polluting the oceans and the land, and the drugs and hormones that humans take, make their way from sewage treatment works to the oceans and waterways, affecting the fish we eat.....as well as the sprays used in agriculture which are also contaminating our oceans and ground water supplies and making their way into the food we eat......

Then there is air pollution........All of these things are threatening our prime resources. We cannot continue existing on this planet if this continues. Humans have done this, and no one is in a hurry to stop it or to fix it because greed for profit drives everything.

So are you saying that if 100 years ago, when the basic (dirty) machinery for our current industry / commerce was being build, people were "better christians", that somehow we would have known about the long term effects of using fossil fuels?

If yes, how?
If no, then how is this relevant?

* The moral climate is such that children today have no security of family anymore. Their parents are not worried about maintaining relationships, but throwing away the family unit to accommodate their own sexual needs and desires.
Teenagers today have the morals of alley cats and STD's are on the rise, even though we don't hear much about them.
The only way to get STD's is through sex with multiple partners. You can have sex with a single partner a hundred times a day and as long as you are both virgins, they will not get an STD. Homosexual sex presents it own medical problems.

Well aren't we a bit dark and pessimistic....
That isn't my experience at all.

In any case, I think it's save to say that the moral climate in general, gets higher through time. In fact, if you could pick any civilisation in history, where you would like to live your life not knowing in advance who you will be (white, black, jew, muslim, christian, gay, lesbian, transexual, disabled, ......), I think you'ld choose a secular democracy any day of the week, because you know it would provide you with the best chance of personal freedom and well-being. And our modern humanistic ethical standards, is a BIG reason for that.

The fall of the Roman Empire was not caused by a conquering nation, but by decay from within.

The fall of Rome has not just one cause, but is the result of many many factor. One of the biggest is that it became to big and too costly to protect all of its very widespread borders.


Their hedonistic lifestyle destroyed the family unit, and the fabric of society unravelled. Rome fell due to its own decadence.

Nonsense.
Rome has always been decadent. When it was at the very top of its existance, it was just as decadent - orgies with prostitutes and slaves and everything.

We see all the same elements in today's world. When humans do not learn from the past mistakes of others, they are doomed to repeat them.....and here we are.

Indeed, here we are... living in some of the most peacefull and tolerant societies that have ever existed - even with all the progress that has yet to be made, since things like racism and homophobia and whatnot are still very much issues. Nevertheless, I don't know about any other society that has ever existed, in which statistically life would have been better then what we currently enjoy.

* Health problems at this time are out of control.

Are you aware that life expectancy has trippled since no more then 150 years ago?

Western health is contending with poor food choices and an epidemic of obesity. Auto-Immune diseases are rampant because of artificial environmental causes. Medical science is useless at diagnosing them or treating them. More artificial chemicals just exacerbate the problem. Death from prescription drugs is higher than from illegal drugs.
The epidemic of mental health problems as well as depressive illness increases, as drug and alcohol addiction continue to affect millions.

And yet, life expectancy is trippled since no more then 150 years ago.
It seems we're doing quite okay considering where we came from.....

*Technology is affecting our young people in ways that are not healthy. It is changing the way they interact and there are warnings about the problems of increasing radiation by the constant use of their devices. It is isolating them and causing anti-social behavior.

That's a matter of education / upbringing.
Here's an idea: don't buy your kids such devices until they are mature enough to handle them responsibly.

But once again, this seems like just your opinion and not at all a statistical fact.

Poorer nations still battle with malnutrition and high infant mortality. Both sides of this situation are extreme and entirely preventable. All we need to do is get back to nature and self sufficiency. There are many who are waking up to this, but too late, I fear.

What do you mean "back to nature and self sufficiency"?

* Political unrest has never been experienced on the scale that is seen at present. The sea of humanity has never been more restless or dissatisfied with their governance. Country after country have taken to the streets to make their discontent heard.

Isn't democracy awesome? When you're malcontent, you have the freedom to protest and make yourself heared.

Would you prefer a dictatorship where you're only allowed to do as you're told?

What more do you need to describe the "mess" we call life in this pathetically selfish world?

I think you failed to make your case. I saw lot's of subjective opinion and the few factual things you mentioned, don't seem to have anything to do with how "christian" people are or could be or should have been and how that would change or prevent the "mess" of pollution by fossil fuels.

Did I mention the Bible once?

No. But you said the root cause of "the mess" was not following the bible correctly, right?
I think you failed to make your case there.
 
The fall of Rome has not just one cause, but is the result of many many factor. One of the biggest is that it became to big and too costly to protect all of its very widespread borders.

The Roman Empire ended in 1453 :grimacing:

Here's what it looked like a century and a half after it 'fell'

rome5.gif
 

nightshadetwine

New Member
Countless cultures have marked the solstices as they are tangible astronomical events. The idea of 'stealing' a festival for marketing purposes relies on there being a significant festival to steal in the 4th C Roman Empire though.

I wouldn't say 'stealing', they're just coming out of the same culture. Which would be Greco-Roman. So it wouldn't be surprising that Christianity would eventually have something associated with the winter solstice or rebirth of the sun.

Jesus was associated with the Sun, but not necessarily because of an Egyptian deity:

"But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves." Malachi 4:2

It may not be directly influenced by Egyptian tradition but there very well may be an indirect influence. Scholars have shown that the titles Jesus is given in the NT go back to Egyptian titles. Also, some of the sun symbolism found in Jewish texts may come from Egyptian religion.

King and Messiah as Son of God: Divine, Human, and Angelic Messianic Figures in Biblical and Related Literature(Eerdmans, 2008), Adela Yarbro Collins and John J. Collins
This book traces the history of the idea that the king and later the messiah is Son of God, from its origins in ancient Near Eastern royal ideology to its Christian appropriation in the New Testament.

Both highly regarded scholars, Adela Yarbro Collins and John J. Collins argue that Jesus was called “the Son of God” precisely because he was believed to be the messianic king. This belief and tradition, they contend, led to the identification of Jesus as preexistent, personified Wisdom, or a heavenly being in the New Testament canon. However, the titles Jesus is given are historical titles tracing back to Egyptian New Kingdom ideology...

That which comes forth at, or from, Dawn is the sun, the primary image for the deity in the Egyptian tradition. The imagery of the Psalm associates the king with the rising sun, with all it's mythological connotations. Compare the hymn of Akhenaten, cited above at n. 28: "You beget him in the morning like your own forms"...
The motifs of seating at the right hand and sun-like emergence from the dawn, however, strongly suggest an Egyptian background.

Jesus' death was identified from Judeo-Christian theological calculation deriving from creation/the first passover:

Thanks to the paschal table of Hippolytus, we can be sure that 25 March played an important role in Christian chronology as the date of the crucifixion since at least the early third century, thus laying the ground for an influential calendrical tradition in the Western church.
TC Schmidt - Calculating December 25 as the Birth of Jesus in Hippolytus’ Canon and Chronicon

If 25 Dec is calculated from this date, it has nothing to do with other deities. While it may be no accident that the solstices are involved, there may well be 'Christian' reasons for this.

I'm aware of the calculation from passover. I personally think it's possible there's also an influence from other deities and the birth/rebirth of the sun. It seems like too much of a coincidence to me. There also seems to be a tradition of a virgin birth of the sun in Egyptian religion, and the Egyptian gods that were associated with the sun(Re, Horus, Osiris) all die and overcome death or resurrect. I think there's too many parallels to dismiss possible influence.

There's also Dionysus who had two major festivals, one in the spring like passover and one in the winter. Although as far as I know Dionysus wasn't associated with the sun, he was also a dying and resurrecting savior.
 
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Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
Anyway, I don't think there will be much nudey dancing on the winter solstice...
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The general idea idea that gets endlessly repeated is "Christians are devious and tried to hijack Pagan festivals as a cheap marketing ploy to dupe the masses".

It's completely wrong, but that's the general idea.
No, Constantine the Great was devious.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
What mess?
You mean the mess that the bible claims we are in and for which it conveniently provides the only cure?

What mess? Can you be specific?
And actually point it out please, without any bible preaching.

If we REALLY are in a mess, then you wouldn't have to need to refer to the bible to point it out.

For example, if there is an article saying that I have a tumor, you could just point out the tumor, without having to rely on the article, right? If the tumor is actually real, that is.

So, what mess?
The mess since 1914. Go ahead, deny these documented facts:

Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.”—Bertrand Russell, The New York Times Magazine, September 27, 1953.


The London Evening Star commented that the conflict “tore the whole world’s political setup apart. Nothing could ever be the same again. If we all get the nuclear madness out of our systems and the human race survives, some historian in the next century may well conclude that the day the world went mad was August 4, 1914.”–London Evening Star, quoted in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, August 5, 1960, and The Seattle Times, August 4, 1960, p. 5.


“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.” (General Charles de Gaulle, Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9)


“Everyone agrees in recognizing that in the whole history of mankind, few dates have had the importance of August 2, 1914.” (Maurice Genevoix, Promise of Greatness)


“Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.” (The Generation of 1914, Robert Wohl, Professor of History)


“The whole world really blew up about World War I and we still don’t know why. Before then, men thought that utopia was in sight. There was peace and prosperity. Then everything blew up. We’ve been in a state of suspended animation ever since . . . More people have been killed in this century than in all of history.” (Dr. Walker Percy, American Medical News, November 21, 1977)


“Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in. . . . Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end.” (British statesman Harold Macmillan, The New York Times, November 23, 1980)


“The last completely ‘normal’ year in history was 1913, the year before World War I began.” (Times-Herald, Washington, D.C., March 13, 1949)


“In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.” (The Economist)


“The Great War of 1914-18 lies like a band of scorched earth dividing that time from ours. In wiping out so many lives which would have been operative on the years that followed, in destroying beliefs, changing ideas, and leaving incurable wounds of disillusion, it created a physical as well as psychological gulf between two epochs.” (Foreword to The Proud Tower, by Barbara W. Tuchman)


“Neither the old nor the young had any suspicion that what they were witnessing, during that incomparable season of 1914, was, in fact, the end of an era.” (Before the Lamps Went Out, by Geoffrey Marcus)


“[There was] little or no evidence of a steady rise or a ‘snowballing’ of conflicts and tensions leading directly to the outbreak of war.” On the contrary, “by late 1913 and early 1914 . . . relations among the major powers appeared to be more settled than they had been for many years.” (International Crisis, by Eugenia Nomikos and Robert C. North, 1976)


“The effects of World War I were literally revolutionary and struck deep in the lives of almost all peoples, economically as well as socially and politically.” (Meyers Enzyklopädisches Lexikon)


“The year 1913 marked the close of an era.” (1913 - An End and a Beginning, Virginia Cowles)


“Before 1914 the monetary and the financial systems were compatible. . . . If one takes August 1914 as marking the dividing line between them, the contrasts between the nineteenth and the twentieth centuries are striking. In many aspects of human affairs there has been a complete reversal of trend. . . . One major reason was the severance of the linkage between the financial system and money with intrinsic value that began in 1914. . . . The breaking of the linkage was a momentous event. . . . 1914 marked a radical, and in the end catastrophic, transformation of that system.” (Ashby Bladen, senior vice president The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America)


“By all contemporaneous accounts, the world prior to 1914 seemed to be moving irreversibly toward higher levels of civility and civilization; human society seemed perfectible. The nineteenth century had brought an end to the wretched slave trade. Dehumanizing violence seemed on the decline. . . . The pace of global invention had advanced throughout the nineteenth century, bringing railroads, the telephone, the electric light, cinema, the motor car, and household conveniences too numerous to mention. Medical science, improved nutrition, and the mass distribution of potable water had elevated life expectancy . . . The sense of the irreversibility of such progress was universal.

World War I was more devastating to civility and civilization than the physically far more destructive World War II: the earlier conflict destroyed an idea. I cannot erase the thought of those pre-World War I years, when the future of mankind appeared unencumbered and without limit. Today our outlook is starkly different from a century ago but perhaps a bit more consonant with reality. Will terror, global warming, or resurgent populism do to the current era of life-advancing globalization what World War I did to the previous one? No one can be confident of the answer.” (Alan Greenspan, The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World, 2007)


“Those who have an adult’s recollection and an adult’s understanding of the world which preceded World War I look back upon it with a great nostalgia. There was a sense of security then which has never since existed.”(Professor Benjamin M. Anderson, Economics and the Public Welfare)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No, Constantine the Great was devious.
Are you?

Point is that Constantine was pretty much a "mixed bag", as I tend to believe we all are. What he did do was, in setting up Christianity as being the official religion, to introduce basic Christian morality to replace the quite materialistic and hedonistic religion of the Romans, including setting up orphanages and helping to take care of the needy, amongst many other things that we associate with basic Judeo-Christian morality.

A perfect man, no he was not, but then neither am I.
 
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