is Christmas Pagan?

Deeje · Dec 15, 2019

1213 said:
It depends on how you keep it. But the word Christ means Jesus the Messiah and mass is a liturgical service in Christianity.

Mass is the main eucharistic liturgical service in many forms of Western Christianity.
Mass (liturgy) - Wikipedia

So, the word Christmas is in no way pagan. But maybe some have pagan habits mixed to Christmas. That doesn’t mean Christmas is pagan, it just means some have mixed pagan things to Christmas.

Can you show me where Christianity was ever said to be “liturgical’? There was never any ritual or repetition advocated for Christians, the majority of whom would not be Jewish and therefore not obligated to perform Jewish observances or to follow their formalities. Gentiles had very few obligations placed on them. (Acts 15:14; Acts 15:28-29) Education about God and his Christ was more important than empty ritual performance. (John 17:3)

The “New Covenant” introduced the proper way for Christians to worship the Father....not the son.

Like the Pope, Mass is entirely Catholic, not Christian. I don’t believe that there is even a resemblance between Catholicism and what Jesus began.

I believe that to celebrate pagan festivals under a thin “Christian” label is not only dishonest, it is a direct violation of Christian teaching, and therefore dishonouring the God they claim to worship. If you read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 you will see that true Christians are told not to “touch” what is “unclean” in God’s eyes. There can be no “sharing” with them. How often did God punish his own people for their excursions into false worship? He hates it! Jeremiah called it spiritual “adultery”. (Jeremiah 3:8-9)

How many people know that the Roman Catholic Church was instituted for political reasons, not because the Roman Emperor was a Christian? As an astute politician, he instituted a “universal” (Catholic) religion to consolidate his divided empire. He incorporated elements of both so as to keep everyone happy. From my studies, what he introduced was never “Christian” from its inception. What does Jesus say to those who call him “Lord on the day of judgment? “I never knew you”.....what does the word “never” mean? (Matthew 7:21-23)

sooda · Dec 15, 2019

Deeje said:
Can you show me where Christianity was ever said to be “liturgical’? There was never any ritual or repetition advocated for Christians, the majority of whom would not be Jewish and therefore not obligated to perform Jewish observances or to follow their formalities. Gentiles had very few obligations placed on them. (Acts 15:14; Acts 15:28-29) Education about God and his Christ was more important than empty ritual performance. (John 17:3)

The “New Covenant” introduced the proper way for Christians to worship the Father....not the son.

Like the Pope, Mass is entirely Catholic, not Christian. I don’t believe that there is even a resemblance between Catholicism and what Jesus began.

I believe that to celebrate pagan festivals under a thin “Christian” label is not only dishonest, it is a direct violation of Christian teaching, and therefore dishonouring the God they claim to worship. If you read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 you will see that true Christians are told not to “touch” what is “unclean” in God’s eyes. There can be no “sharing” with them. How often did God punish his own people for their excursions into false worship? He hates it! Jeremiah called it spiritual “adultery”. (Jeremiah 3:8-9)

How many people know that the Roman Catholic Church was instituted for political reasons, not because the Roman Emperor was a Christian? As an astute politician, he instituted a “universal” (Catholic) religion to consolidate his divided empire. He incorporated elements of both so as to keep everyone happy. From my studies, what he introduced was never “Christian” from its inception. What does Jesus say to those who call him “Lord on the day of judgment? “I never knew you”.....what does the word “never” mean? (Matthew 7:21-23)

Liturgy just means a form or formulary according to which public religious worship, especially Christian worship, is conducted. I think you are overreacting to Christian church services.

exchemist · Dec 15, 2019

sooda said:
Liturgy just means a form or formulary according to which public religious worship, especially Christian worship, is conducted. I think you are overreacting to Christian church services.

Surely not.

sooda · Dec 15, 2019

exchemist said:
Surely not.

I am not trying to be insulting.. I have been to lots and lots of church services.. and most have a format.. some more formal and ritualistic than others.. But, I have never been to a Jehovah's Witness meeting so I can't say what they do.

Deeje · Dec 15, 2019

sooda said:
I am not trying to be insulting.. I have been to lots and lots of church services.. and most have a format.. some more formal and ritualistic than others.. But, I have never been to a Jehovah's Witness meeting so I can't say what they do.

Maybe you should try us out too, and then you will understand why we have separated completely from Christendom. We have structure, because God's worship was always structured, but no rituals or repetitions...no images and no distinctive clothing. We dress to reflect the appropriate reverence for God and you will hear our children have an active share in our Bible study, which is in a question and answer format.

Our public meetings (usually on Sunday, but sometimes held on other days of the week if a Kingdom Hall is shared by more than one congregation) are educational, centered on giving Jehovah God the praise as Jesus did, and using the Bible to help all in attendance to learn more about God only from this source. There is also the giving of thanks and praise to God in songs that are written by our own brothers, not hymns you will hear in church.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/MeetingsConventions/pub-whkh_x_VIDEO

Our congregational prayer is given by one brother for all in attendance, before and after the meeting, but they are never repetitive. Our focus is on Bible study.....so make sure you bring your Bible if you decide to attend.

After a Public discourse, we have a study of the Bible using the Watchtower magazine on specific topics that are relevant to everyday life and the problems that may arise and how best to solve them. Our other meeting is instruction and training for our ministry because every one of Jehovah's Witnesses is an ordained minister, charged with taking the Kingdom message to others as Jesus did. (Matthew 10:11-15)

Our meetings are structured the same as it was indicated in the first century.....no ritual, no liturgy, no meaningless repetition by those who pick their Christianity up at the door and leave it there on their way out.
We attend to learn, not to perform.

Christianity is something you live...not something you do once a week.

If you do decide to attend, let me know what you think.....this invitation is open to all.

sooda · Dec 15, 2019

Deeje said:
Maybe you should try us out too, and then you will understand why we have separated completely from Christendom. We have structure, because God's worship was always structured, but no rituals or repetitions...no images and no distinctive clothing. We dress to reflect the appropriate reverence for God and you will hear our children have an active share in our Bible study, which is in a question and answer format.

Our public meetings (usually on Sunday, but sometimes held on other days of the week if a Kingdom Hall is shared by more than one congregation) are educational, centered on giving Jehovah God the praise as Jesus did, and using the Bible to help all in attendance to learn more about God only from this source. There is also the giving of thanks and praise to God in songs that are written by our own brothers, not hymns you will hear in church.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/MeetingsConventions/pub-whkh_x_VIDEO

Our congregational prayer is given by one brother for all in attendance, before and after the meeting, but they are never repetitive. Our focus is on Bible study.....so make sure you bring your Bible if you decide to attend.

After a Public discourse, we have a study of the Bible using the Watchtower magazine on specific topics that are relevant to everyday life and the problems that may arise and how best to solve them. Our other meeting is instruction and training for our ministry because every one of Jehovah's Witnesses is an ordained minister, charged with taking the Kingdom message to others as Jesus did. (Matthew 10:11-15)

Our meetings are structured the same as it was indicated in the first century.....no ritual, no liturgy, no meaningless repetition by those who pick their Christianity up at the door and leave it there on their way out.
We attend to learn, not to perform.

Christianity is something you live...not something you do once a week.

If you do decide to attend, let me know what you think.....this invitation is open to all.

I agree that one lives their Christianity.. and we don't perform either.

Thanks for the invite, but no.

Neuropteron · Dec 15, 2019

Riders said:
Could not find my old thread so I had to put it up again Merry Christmas.

“The date of December 25 for the celebration of Christmas is not the result of a strict chronological anniversary but, rather, of the Christianization of the festivals of the winter solstice that were celebrated in pagan Rome.”
The Romans celebrated the rise of the sun by feasting, revelry, and the exchanging of presents. Since church authorities were loath to abolish such a popular festival, they “Christianized” it by calling it the birth of Jesus instead of the birth of the sun.
At the outset, in the fourth and fifth centuries, attachment to sun worship and its customs died hard. Catholic “Saint” Augustine (354-430 C.E.) felt obliged to exhort fellow believers not to celebrate December 25 as the pagans did in honor of the sun.

Katzpur · Dec 15, 2019

Riders said:
Could not find my old thread so I had to put it up again Merry Christmas.

Christmas is what you make it. For me, it's anything but pagan. It's a celebration in commemoration of the birth of my Savior, and the fact that I have a Christmas tree in my living room doesn't change that one iota.

Augustus · Dec 16, 2019

Deeje said:
As an astute politician, he instituted a “universal” (Catholic) religion to consolidate his divided empire.

Is it 'politically astute' to consolidate a divided empire by moving away from the position that the emperor was a god and instead adopting a religion that was followed by 5-7% of the population, and even less of upper classes and military on whom your survival depends?

Anyway, Connie didn't even make it the official religion, that was Theodosius.

TagliatelliMonster · Dec 16, 2019

Riders said:
Could not find my old thread so I had to put it up again Merry Christmas.

is Christmas Pagan?

The short answer, is Yes.

TagliatelliMonster · Dec 16, 2019

SigurdReginson said:
It's rooted in pagan practices and traditions, but it's current manifestation is Christian - for the moment. It's definitely taking on more of a secular tone in this day and age. It feels like the nativity is just slapped onto the side while Yolfathr, I mean Yule Father, I mean Father Christmas, I mean Saint Nicholas, I mean Santa Claus takes the spot light.

It's rather interesting actually.

Saint Nicholas was actually Nicholas of Myra (Saint Nicholas - Wikipedia) who died on december 6, 342

Today, primarily in Belgium and Holland, on the 6th of dec we celebrate "Sinterklaas" or "Saint Nicholas". But we tell the kids that dec 6 is his birthday, instead of his day of death, lol.
And during the night, he walks the rooftops with his horse and helpers to bring gifts to all the good children through the chimney.

When the Dutch migrated to the US, they imported the feast of Sinterklaas. In the US, Sinterklaas changed into Santa Claus and his feast moved from dec 6 tot dec 24 where he turned into father christmas. Santa Claus was subsequently re-imported to western europe.

So now, Sinterklaas comes from the south by boat to brings kids gifts on dec 6 and then Santa Claus comes from the north by sled to bring kids gifts on dec 24

Interesting how in spite of Christian's attempts to hijack holidays, they never were able to muscle out the pagan roots and traditions

That's how christendom managed to spread so fast. It's actually a Roman conquest tactic.
Romans didn't expect the people they conquered to "assimilate" into Roman culture. Au contraire even.

They conquer a people with some brutal war and then when the dust settled after the battles, they installed a governor to collect taxes but the people were left their dignity and culture. They even incorporated aspects of the conquered culture, into their own culture. It happened more then once that the Romans then took one of the gods of the conquered cultured, returned to Rome and then resurected a temple there in honor of that god.

That's what christendom did as well, to an extent. They didn't expect their "newly conquered" to leave their own traditions behind. Instead, just like the romans, they even took some of those customs and traditions (oftenly chosen rather strategically which ones...) and adopted it themselves.

It's not that surprising either imo. Christendom is really a Roman religion and an continuation of the Roman empire.

TagliatelliMonster · Dec 16, 2019

sooda said:
I know.. Its ridiculous… I feel sorry for those people who can't have fun, and family and feasts.. Don't they like to give gifts to those they love? Curmudgeons ...that's what they are.

Why is it ridiculous?

It's kind of painfully obvious that christmass is specked with pagan traditions.

I don't mind it. I think it's the best time of the year.

I just don't see the point of pretending as if it is a "pure christian feast", because it isn't.

And that's fine. It's all ancient history. It's how cultures work, what of it....

Martin · Dec 16, 2019

The winter solstice is this Sunday, 22nd December. I plan to watch the sun rising over the sea, and expect to meet some Pagans from the local Moot. Cool!

Etritonakin · Dec 16, 2019

Riders said:
Could not find my old thread so I had to put it up again Merry Christmas.

The bible does say not to do the following.... which also shows this custom to predate Christ....

Jer 10:2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

but... even more important than what NOT to do is what God WOULD have you do.

There are holy days given by God in the bible. Many consider them "Jewish" or "Israelite" (though most Israelites do not know they are -and the "Jews" represent roughly only 2 tribes of Israel).
The entire world will keep the days given by God in the future -so it's not as if God ever wanted us to do otherwise....

Zech 14:16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

People talk about how fun "the holidays" are.... but a full 10 percent of a person's income/increase (second tithe) is to be saved and used for keeping the holy days -mostly the feast of tabernacles/last great day. It represents how things will be in the kingdom of God -and the other holy days also teach God's overall plan.

`mud · Dec 16, 2019

And.....also.....before Saul....DO NO HARM !

nightshadetwine · Dec 16, 2019

Augustus said:
The dating of Christmas to 25 Dec actually had nothing to do with Pagan festivals. There wasn't one on the 25th (I'm aware of the Sol Invictus argument. It's wrong) .

There was a pre-Christian festival for the birth of Horus on the 25th of Dec. There also seems to be a tradition of the sun being born/reborn around the time of the winter solstice.

Isis Regina--Zeus Sarapis(Walter de Gruyter, 2001), Reinhold Merkelbach

Then the nocturnal Osiris consecration takes place, during the night of the 24th to the 25th of December. We know from Epiphanios that the Isis worshipers celebrated a big festival on December 25, the Kikellia. In the context of a discussion of the day of the birth of Christ, he speaks of the day of the winter solstice and the increase of the light and says the Hellenes (= the Gentiles) celebrate this day on the eighth day before the calends of January (= December 25), on the day known to the Romans as Saturnalia, to the Agyptians, Kronia, in Alexandria, Kikellia. The Kikellia occurs only once in the texts known to us, in the Greek version of the Kanoposdekretes, which was written on the 29th of Choiach in 238 BC... Since the 29th Choiach fell on the 25th of December in the Alexandrian calendar of the imperial period, there is little doubt that the imperial age was identical with the Ptolemaic festival. In Ptolemaic times, the time of Kikellia was calculated after the Egyptian year of conversion, which lost one day every 4 years. So this Isis festival fell in the year 238 on the 17th of February of the Julian year. In the year 30 BC when Augustus conquered Egypt, the 29th Choiach fell on the 25th of December. Augustus had the Egyptian year fixed by adding a leap day every 4 years. The Kikellia were celebrated on December 25th.

Medieval Nubia: A Social and Economic History(OUP USA, 2012), Giovanni R. Ruffini

Modern scholars have suggested that the role of the Choiak festival in "popular consciousness" survived in the liturgical practice of the Coptic Church, which intensifies at the end of Choiak with the celebration of Christmas. Some aspects of modern Coptic religious festivals are believed to be direct continuations of ancient Egyptian Osirian rites from the month of Choiak. Chronologically, the assimilation of the Choiak festival with Christmas would have been easy: Celebration of Osiris's victory over death on 30 Choiak fell shortly after the ultimate date for Christmas, December 25 or 28 or 29 Choiak, and celebration of the Choiak festival continued at Philae in southern Egypt into the fourth and fifth centuries. December 25 proper was the date of the Kikellia, the celebration of the birth of Horus, the son of Isis and Osiris. The Kikellia is frequently attested in the third and early fourth centuries and is documented as late as the writings of Epiphanios of Salamis at the end of the fourth century.

There's also the Antiochus calender which says the sun is reborn on the 25th Dec. Antiochus lived sometime around the late 1st century CE to early 2nd century CE.

Astronomy, Weather, and Calendars in the Ancient World: Parapegmata and Related Texts in Classical and Near-Eastern Societies(Cambridge University Press, 2007), Daryn Lehoux

Month of December...
22: Winter Solstice.
23: Procyon sets in the morning.
25: The birth of the sun, light increases

Macrobius says the sun is born on the winter solstice.

A Brief History of Ancient Astrology(Wiley, 2008), Roger Beck

Speaking of the differences in age of the representation of various gods, the fourth-century (ce) polymath Macrobius said that these all ‘‘relate to the Sun, who is made to appear very small at the winter solstice’’ (Saturnalia 1.18.10). ‘‘In this form,’’ he continues, ‘‘the Egyptians bring him forth from the shrine on the set date to appear like a tiny infant on the shortest day of the year.’’ By the same metaphorical logic, the Calendar of Antiochus of Athens named December 25 the ‘‘Sun’s birthday,’’ with the notation ‘‘light increases.’’

Ovid also mentions the sun being reborn around the time of the winter solstice. Ovid is pre-Christian.

So while scholars seem to be unsure about a pagan influence and that the date may have been chosen based on calculations related to his birth, I personally think there may be a possible influence. It just seems like a strange coincidence that the sun or Horus(sun god) was said to be born on Dec 25th and then Jesus's birth ends up being on the same day.

Deeje · Dec 16, 2019

Augustus said:
Is it 'politically astute' to consolidate a divided empire by moving away from the position that the emperor was a god and instead adopting a religion that was followed by 5-7% of the population, and even less of upper classes and military on whom your survival depends?

Anyway, Connie didn't even make it the official religion, that was Theodosius.

The Emperor was himself a worshipper of Zeus and he transformed Zeus into Jesus in the minds of his subjects. The fusion of "Christianity" (which by the fourth century had descended into the full-on apostasy that Jesus foretold) and Roman sun worship, worked well for him because all that the RCC introduced by way of central doctrine, is still held in Christendom to the present day.

It is why, I believe that Christ has never set foot in Christendom. (Matthew 7:21-23) Christians were warned NOT to mix false worship with true worship. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) History attests that humans continually fall into this trap. Disobedience and justification is what got us into this mess in the first place.

1213 · Dec 16, 2019

Deeje said:
Can you show me where Christianity was ever said to be “liturgical’?

My point was to explain what the word “Christmas” means. Do you disagree with the meaning, Christ's mas?

Deeje said:
… Education about God and his Christ was more important than empty ritual performance. (John 17:3)

I agree that what Jesus teaches is not empty rituals and I think Christians (disciples of Jesus) should not have empty rituals. “Christmas” is not necessary always empty ritual.

Deeje said:
…I believe that to celebrate pagan festivals under a thin “Christian” label is not only dishonest, it is a direct violation of Christian teaching, ….

I agree, if one celebrates pagan festival, it is not good. But, Christmas is not necessarily a pagan ritual, unless one practices it as a pagan ritual.

TagliatelliMonster · Dec 16, 2019

Deeje said:
The Emperor was himself a worshipper of Zeus and he transformed Zeus into Jesus in the minds of his subjects. The fusion of "Christianity" (which by the fourth century had descended into the full-on apostasy that Jesus foretold) and Roman sun worship, worked well for him because all that the RCC introduced by way of central doctrine, is still held in Christendom to the present day.

It is why, I believe that Christ has never set foot in Christendom. (Matthew 7:21-23) Christians were warned NOT to mix false worship with true worship. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) History attests that humans continually fall into this trap. Disobedience and justification is what got us into this mess in the first place.

What mess?
You mean the mess that the bible claims we are in and for which it conveniently provides the only cure?

What mess? Can you be specific?
And actually point it out please, without any bible preaching.

If we REALLY are in a mess, then you wouldn't have to need to refer to the bible to point it out.

For example, if there is an article saying that I have a tumor, you could just point out the tumor, without having to rely on the article, right? If the tumor is actually real, that is.

So, what mess?

Deeje · Dec 16, 2019

1213 said:
My point was to explain what the word “Christmas” means. Do you disagree with the meaning, Christ's mas?

Since "mass" was never part of original Christianity, then whatever "mass" is celebrated, is Catholic....not Christian.
I don't think you understand the difference.....?

I agree that what Jesus teaches is not empty rituals and I think Christians (disciples of Jesus) should not have empty rituals. “Christmas” is not necessary always empty ritual.

I don't believe that Christmas has any place in the life of a Christian, because it is not about Jesus at all. Christ was never in Christmas. It is pagan to its bootstraps. We are told not to touch "unclean" pagan worship.

Does it not occur to those in Christendom that the two main occasions where Jesus is supposedly celebrated that he is portrayed as helpless on both occasions? Is Jesus still a baby? Is the "Christmas" story even accurate? e.g. were ther 3 wise men? Was the star from God? Did they visit Jesus at the stable? Have you ever read Matthew ch 2?

Easter is also a pagan adoption. Nothing about Easter is Christian either. Is Jesus still a dying man on an instrument of torture?

Are angels effeminate creatures or cherubic babies? How are they portrayed in Catholic art? Do you see the disempowerment? The perception management?

Jesus returned to heaven as a victorious King. He was told to wait until God 's time for his rulership to begin. (Psalm 110:1-2; Daniel 7:13-14)

When he returns with his angelic army, it will be as God's judge and executioner. All will face the music then. "Sheep or goats"....that's all there is. All of us are in either one or the other of those two categories.

I agree, if one celebrates pagan festival, it is not good. But, Christmas is not necessarily a pagan ritual, unless one practices it as a pagan ritual.

IMV, everything about Christmas is pagan except the label....please read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 and tell me how the apostle Paul describes how God feels about mixing false worship with Christianity.....? (Luke 16:10)

is Christmas Pagan?

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