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is Christmas Pagan?
- Thread starter Riders
- Start date
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Considering Christianity really took off when it was adopted by the Romans, whose empire stretched across and included many non-christians (the majority at the time) it shouldn't be shocking that Christianity employs many elements borrowed from other customs, be it to avoid persecution, to convert, or simply because it was fun and they didn't want to change traditions.
Many of the elements we use today (in America at least) are borrowed. Christmas trees were brought from German immigrants and popularized through British royalty with German influence. Santa Claus is an amalgam of Christian Saint, Odin, and other folk mythological figures.
And beyond that, the idea of feasting, storytelling, gathering together, and gifting appears simply a part of intrinsic human behavior that helps us survive in this dynamic and tumultuous world. Can't get more pagan than that!
Augustus
…
There are no incontrovertible facts, only arguments of probability. Despite it being "common knowledge" for many people, the "stolen from the pagans" thesis really does have very little evidence in favour of it
This assumes that the purpose of calculating the date was to establish a feast day. Easter was the major celebration at this time, and there is no real reason to assume they were desperate for a Birthday feast. There was however a tradition of sophisticated calculation of all kinds of theological events from at least the 2nd C. It certainly wouldn't be surprising if they eventually achieved a consensus on one of these, as they had on March 25th for Jesus' death (and also annunciation given their assumptions regarding symmetry).
Recent scholarship has found evidence that supports the calculation hypothesis, and also evidence that offers good reason for rejecting the 'Sol Invictus' hypothesis which are the 2 major strands of scholarly debate.
The Saturnalia thesis, not one commonly addressed in scholarly sources, is basically 'they are only a few days apart therefore they copied it' which isn't exactly a devastating argument, especially if you consider some of the evidence against it.
Will probably get round to it sometime before Christmas. Will need an hour or so to put it together as it's not that straightforward, so will have to wait until I'm bored enough
sooda
Veteran Member
A lot of German soldiers fought for the British during the Revolutionary War.. and afterwards they stayed.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Well, i agree with that.
Brother. In that case, everything may have pagan elements. Every thing. We never know. Christmas definitely has external elements. Not only Christmas, every birthday celebration may have. But none of that reasoning can say "Christmas is pagan".
I dont celebrate Christmas neither am i a Christian. But this is just basic sense.
Augustus
…
It's one of the 2 min theories in academic scholarship along with the calculation theory..
(There is also another one based on religious tourism)
It's actually Jesus' conception, and this is derived from his death, which is derived from Easter. They believed in a symmetry to these kind of things.
March 25 was accepted as the date for his death in the 2nd C (or perhaps early 3rd, I forget and can't be bothered checking)
Anyway, they wouldn't have to calculate dates if they were known
It's not about when Jesus actually was born, it is about when people came to believe he was born and why.
Obviously you aren't going to get a consensus right out of the box on exegetical calculations that have no definitive scriptural basis. Orthodoxy always takes time to emerge on such issues, but if people are trying to calculate it, you would imagine some form of majority consensus emerging over time as it did with 25 March for his death.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
There was a wave of German immigrants in the 1800s as well, who were influential due to their education and business savvy.
Famously, Queen Victoria's marriage to Prince Albert popularized their own tradition of Christmas trees through their influence.
exchemist
Veteran Member
All Saints Day at its current position in the calendar seems to have been established by Pope Gregory III. There is no reason why a Catholic saints' day, established in Rome, should be connected with the far-off Celts, as far as I can see.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
True! Everything does have pagan elements, and I guess the appropriate thing to say would be "Our celebration of Christmas includes pagan elements."
shmogie
Well-Known Member
No one knows the date of Christs birth. However, is it important?
If the day was a pagan holiday, do Christians celebrate it as a pagan holiday? Is there some inherent evil in a 24 hour period that people thousands of years ago picked for their religious day?
There are numerous ideas about this, even one that proposes that the Roman pagans usurped the day from CHRISTIANS.
It is all irrelevant. Christians selected a day to celebrate the birth of Christ, that is what is important.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Well. I must agree with that. You could add Buddhist festivals, prophet Muhammeds birthday celebrations etc into this.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
well, we weren't always 'far-off.' At one time they extended to northern italy and down into turkey, you know as evidenced by the book of galatians. And I suspect the celts had massive influence, their ideas possibly even influenced the triple spirit suffused symoblism of the new testament, with so many metaphysical beings present as if the physical world of the gospels were overlain with the celtic otherworld itself
Augustus
…
The etymology of the word in English is irrelevant to the origin of the Christian holy day though.
MikeDwight
Well-Known Member
If we are to love the pagans Matthew 18:17 means the rejection of the assumed group in Israel, into the society of the Roman tax collector?
Jesus is the lord of the Sabbath and Sunday even. Catholics have a 365 Holy Day calendar obviously. It is interesting to Appreciate the English Reformed Thanksgiving in their replacement. Didn't Jesus do this? He did ask to break bread and give Thanks. This is really the only approved action and Observance. Jesus Christ institutes an Observance.
Yes most definitely they are all our fellow human beings.
It depends on how you keep it. But the word Christ means Jesus the Messiah and mass is a liturgical service in Christianity.
Mass is the main eucharistic liturgical service in many forms of Western Christianity.
Mass (liturgy) - Wikipedia
So, the word Christmas is in no way pagan. But maybe some have pagan habits mixed to Christmas. That doesn’t mean Christmas is pagan, it just means some have mixed pagan things to Christmas.
Sorry guys and gals. I have to post this someone on the interwebz at least once per year, and this seems to be as good a place as any.
You and I don’t often agree but you are spot on in this assessment. It isn’t real Christianity.....and it never was.