Hatred Among Jewish People / Is Judaism Viable and Useful?

Tumah said:

I don't think anyone has denied your Jewishness. I think you might be misunderstanding his comment.

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Good.

I know I have seen others use the word "interesting"... when impugning someone's Jewish Identity...

Do you remember that young man who showed up and posted something in "resources"... it was about 3-4 months ago... and the whole thing was like a non-Jewish version of Kaballah?

There was discussion in one of the threads that this individual was NOT actually Jewish... and the comments from other non-Jews were... "interesting".

sun rise said:

No, I'm not. To me he's on a par with others I consider true prophets but you would no doubt consider him as a great if not the greatest tzaddik.

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He would disagree with how you label him. It flies in the face of Jewish teachings and his whole point was bringing Jews closer to those teachings.

It's true that he clad his teaching in the garb of Orthodox Judaism but reading his words and listening to stories about him, I find the same essential message as those from other faith streams. And stories about him show his attainment which is on a par with others such as Rabia of Basra, Rumi and many others. One example

Looking around for this post, I also ran across a video which underlines how I feel. That the name "Baal Shem Tov" literally means Master of the Goodly Name and the video underlines his essence as perfect goodness. I would not argue with you if you preferred "perfect tzaddik".

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I would not call him a "perfect" tzaddik either. He was very great, but that's not the same as perfect. The fact that your familiar with some sayings that can also be found in other religions, doesn't mean that you've understood his teachings. It's not for nothing that all his students stood on the side of Orthodox Judaism - Ultra-Orthodox Judaism as much as that term could be appropriate for that period - and not the emerging Reform movement.

I understand that you want to find some Jewish basis for your outlook, but cherry-picking sources or re-interpreting them just isn't being truthful.

dybmh said:

Good.

I know I have seen others use the word "interesting"... when impugning someone's Jewish Identity...

Do you remember that young man who showed up and posted something in "resources"... it was about 3-4 months ago... and the whole thing was like a non-Jewish version of Kaballah?

There was discussion in one of the threads that this individual was NOT actually Jewish... and the comments from other non-Jews were... "interesting".

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I don't recall as there are a few people who do this. I would say 99.99% of the time that someone is posting something about "kaballah" here it's just garbage. Often new-agey and perhaps even more often, attempting to fit some superficial understanding of a concept into some crazy thought.

Mainly I put my efforts into correcting things presented as facts rather than arguing with personal opinions. With threads like the former, if there are a few points that I can correct, that will show the OP is wrong, then I'll do it. Sometimes though, the posts are so convoluted that it's difficult for me to find a place to start and I just ignore the thread altogether. It's the facts that matter to me more.

dybmh said:

I vote: no on this statement. But you are of course open to your opinion. Maybe you're right. I have a copy of the these in english in a 4 volume set. ( Green Cover ). I liked what I read. But, I honestly think that the Chassic Heritage Series ( mussar ) is much much better if you're looking for something to label "The Cornerstone" and you want to avoid reading anything else. Mussar, my friend, mussar... they are fabulous.

"Musar literature is didactic Jewish ethical literature which describes virtues and vices and the path towards perfection in a methodical way.."

Musar literature - Wikipedia

It's a spiritual path, leov... towards perfection... you will love this stuff.

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In Gnostic language maturity - perfection - initiation the same word.

Tumah said:

I don't recall

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So, I think we need @pcarl to clairify his intentions.

I am quite sure I can go to resources... find this fellow that I am referring to, locate the thread where people accurately questioned his Jewish Identity, and also find the comments that say something like...

This guy says xyz... and pdq about Kaballah....

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and then someone else a non-jew comments back:

Interesting

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In this thread @Flankerl says: "You posted on Shabbos, how are you a Chasid?"

And pcarl says: "interesting"

If you go back and re-read Pcarl's first reply to this thread... I think you'll see it... at least the possibility that he does not believe that I am really Jewish... or a Chassid, or something...

He posted a link about "What is a Chassid" from Chabad, and then asked **me** if I matched the beliefs in the article... the implication is clear... Pcarl did not think that **I** knew what it meant to be a Chassid, and that I was appropriating someone else's label in error.

That is at least a possible understanding of Pcarl's reply. Even if it's not true.. it's at least a logical conclusion to consider.

And then... this whole "He posted on Shabbos, are you sure you're a Chassid?" ... "Interesting"

OK.

If I am miss-interpreting, pcarl can easily clear this up. And then I can apologize for misunderstanding his posts. Should be simple... as long as Pcarl is willing to share what he meant in a little more detail.

sun rise said:

No, I'm not. To me he's on a par with others I consider true prophets but you would no doubt consider him as a great if not the greatest tzaddik.

It's true that he clad his teaching in the garb of Orthodox Judaism but reading his words and listening to stories about him, I find the same essential message as those from other faith streams. And stories about him show his attainment which is on a par with others such as Rabia of Basra, Rumi and many others. One example

Looking around for this post, I also ran across a video which underlines how I feel. That the name "Baal Shem Tov" literally means Master of the Goodly Name and the video underlines his essence as perfect goodness. I would not argue with you if you preferred "perfect tzaddik".

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There is a 5 volume book set, I think it's on mysefer.com... I have read it all the way thru twice... If you are a fan of the Besht... it's wonderful. I think it's called "Stories of the Baal Shem Tov".

@dybmh - you actually remind me more of the sort of guys (and gals) who learn chassidut teachings in Israel: they aren't chassids in the classical sense of the term, but would be better described as "students of chassidut"/"learners of chassidut" and not "actual" chassidim. Semantics, maybe, but it clears up confusion and misunderstandings.
These people are more about emulating the spirit side of chassidut, rather than keeping all of the chassidic traditions (in terms of clothing, classic style of chassidic courts, etc).

dybmh said:

But honestly, if I ever actually "feel" the "being at One with G-d" I kind of think I would have a stroke and a heart attack at the same time.

Muslims are able to do this so easily.

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To take the second first, to me Muslims are the same as the rest of us. Words don't matter. Attainment which is rare is something else.

Being in a state of Oneness is not something I've experienced but something I hope I'm making progress toward.

dybmh said:

Come on... don't go there. I am a real Jew.... If you want to make me prove it... It's going to become a little ridiculous. OK?

But... I have had this problem in the past, where people think I'm not Jewish. That it's a live action role-playing... fantasy.

(@Harel13 , do you see what i have to deal with... grumble-grumble-grumble...)

Pcarl, I will get irritated if you impugn my Jewish identity... and it will not be pretty. OK?

I didn't get to respond to your post fast enough about what it means to be a Chasid. That's all.

Now I need to ask you a direct question: Do you beleive that I am actually Jewish?

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I'll tell you what.

I've started Davening with my friends at Chabad again. Should I get them to do a video testimonial or something.

Will that convince you?

Do you want to hear audio of me davening? What can I do to prove I'm Jewish?

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If your mother was Jewish, all Jews will accept that you're Jewish. Otherwise, it depends on the which group you ask.

dybmh said:

Hebrew phrase

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(It's actually Aramaic)

dybmh said:

The spiritual dimension is not represented overtly in The Torah or in the Law in Judaism. It is subtle, and it is mysterious. That is what makes it fun to learn. But a person needs to seek it with a positive attitude, else, the spiritual dimension in The Torah is simply too subtle to detect.

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Well as long as it's there, and it's developed further into the future, maybe that will contribute to its viability.. In the past after I had read the bible, I had tried read a little bit of it in hebrew, and I could immediately see how that language seems to be imbued with grander effects for the biblical context than a reading in english would provide

At any rate, I think by the end of this next decade the west will have a very major shift back into 'paganism' with a very magical emphasis, and there won't be a ton of people reading the bible much, leaving the Jews to have it as a very separate island. Sure, many in the west will turn to atheism and agnosticism, but I think paganism will peel off a major quantity of those demographics

I think western people are showing a heavy instinct to want to get away from so many in-built biblical rules that bind them. (at least from the various traditional Christian readings of it) There was a recent Rogan show where they talked about how in earlier stages of america, some westerners were raised by native americans and they simply couldn't assimilate back to western culture if recaptured. Why would they want to go back east to the harsh industrial land of protestant guilt, to work and toil like adam, when with an imminent sense of spirituality they could contemplate the magic inherent in the sky and sea?

For the past 10 years, every self help article I've read in america has mentioned the likes of yoga and meditation. How very occult, to go toward the within with things like that. Most likely, no one meditated in 17th century Salem. Nobody had nose rings or had youtube channels about tarot cards or ancient pantheons, or interest in wild music and camping festivals. It seems like the stage is being set to alter the spiritual course here, so biblical traditions will seem to become more and more alien and insular. Unless you think that maybe there are biblical doors that can connect will all this, waiting to come into the light..

Harel13 said:

@dybmh - you actually remind me more of the sort of guys (and gals) who learn chassidut teachings in Israel: they aren't chassids in the classical sense of the term, but would be better described as "students of chassidut"/"learners of chassidut" and not "actual" chassidim. Semantics, maybe, but it clears up confusion and misunderstandings.
These people are more about emulating the spirit side of chassidut, rather than keeping all of the chassidic traditions (in terms of clothing, classic style of chassidic courts, etc).

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Fine.

I'll remove Chassid from my name.

@pcarl,

Are you happy now?

@Tumah,

Well... looks like I wasn't that far off after all. Pcarl was indeed impugning something...

sun rise said:

If your mother was Jewish, all Jews will accept that you're Jewish. Otherwise, it depends on the which group you ask.

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Duh. But it doesn't stop anyone from being rude. @pcarl... rude????

Why? be rude to me. What would be the possible benefit to challenging me on whether or not I am a Real Chassid?

Is it fun?

Were you "sucking up" to @Flankerl? Are you a Fan of the of teh Jewish Movement and you're protecting them from imposters? Or maybe you're a fan of RF... and you want to protect RF from imposters.

Or maybe you want to take this smart energtic kid and knock him down a few pegs? Hmmm?

What in the word could be the reason?

Answer: there was no reason it was just thoughtless and rude.

Fine.

You win.

I am not a Chasid. I am just a kid who has adopted the philosophy, have been accepted into the community, follows does a lot of mItzvos all day long.

Ya know... the problem with this, is now... I am on RF being tested.

I say I'm a Chassid, and now the reaction of some is "This Kid is faking."

Nice.

OK.

Now I see why people leave RF in anger.

I'm no longer watching this thread. I will no longer be replying to questions.

Uhm.... lol?

dfnj said:

There nothing that can be done other than human rights violations. Got it.

When the chosen people got to the promised land it was already occupied. It's been death, war, misery, and heartache ever since. Nice religion!

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That's all that you registered from my post?

Good god.

dybmh said:

Come on... don't go there. I am a real Jew.... If you want to make me prove it... It's going to become a little ridiculous. OK?

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I have not, nor do I have the right nor the knowledge to question your religion or anyone's or that you are not a faithful Jew. I found it 'interesting' only because of my own experience within the Jewish health care facility which in order to be home to all Jews had to be Ultra Orthodox. So I am very familiar with the Sabbath laws and how strict they were and have attended all the their holy days. I don't think your situation is all that different from the separate groups within the Church, accusations of heresy, disloyalty, not 'real' Catholics etc.

Brickjectivity said:

It is also short sighted to say this is a property of the West. It certainly a phase at least, but its not necessarily the end of the journey. People tend to assume that what's happening now is permanent, but one or two lifetimes is almost nothing on the large scale. We're not even talking about that long of a period. There have always been ups and downs in the West and in other places.

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I never said nor implied that it was as I was just giving an example of where it is more acute at this time. In this, and so many areas, we often see what's called the "pendulum effect".

metis said:

I never said nor implied that it was as I was just giving an example of where it is more acute at this time. In this, and so many areas, we often see what's called the "pendulum effect".

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...and I do not mean to imply that you have. I agree that it doesn't mean that all religions will die in the West and that its a trend not necessarily pinning the tale on the donkey. I admit it could be, but it doesn't seem like it to me either.

dybmh said:

But more to the point... when you were at the Reform Synagogue, did you ever see a Chassid davening there? You would know, I'm pretty sure.

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Not at my synagogue but we did do as such at our local JCC, although they were more on one side of the room and we on the other with pretty much no intermixing. In Jerusalem, I did go to a Chasidic service, and I also went to a Lubavitch seminar at our JCC here on the Creation accounts. Our oldest granddaughter did volunteer work at the local Friendship Circle run also by the Lubavitch, and I went there several times and talked with them, as well as visiting a Lubavitch shul in Florence, Italy. .

dybmh said:

I have a few friends who say that Catholicism can be super deep and super spiritual.

If you ever feel like starting a thread describing these elements, I would be very interested in reading it and contributing to the discussion.

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I don't have time today, but please respond to this post and I'll set up a thread tomorrow. Which forum do you suggest? And let me just say before signing off that your friends are quite correct.

dybmh said:

I expect that many of you are aware of the in-fighting among Jewish people in America, but do you know how bad it is?

I think it's really really bad. And I hope that this debate will be an opportunity to debate 3 key elements that are ( IMHO ) the most important issues in Modern American Judaism.

1) Do Reform and Conservative Jewish people HATE Chasidic Jewish People?

2) Are Either the Reform and Conservative Jewish Movements in America viable? Will they last longer than 50 years?

3) Is Judaism ( the entire religion ) viable at all anymore as a useful, inspiring, belief system which encourages treating people in a decent, honorable and humane manner? And if not, maybe Judaism is something which should simply go the way of the dinosaur and the newspaper?

Since my views are often not valued by Jewish people in the Reform and Conservative Movements. ( In fact I think they do HATE me ) I will not offer my views on this in the thread unless asked for it specifically.

But I will say this. I have been involved in Reform and Conservative communities myself. And I have felt sincerely HATED by the clergy. So, ya know, maybe that's enough data to show my position in this debate.

I posted this in an open debate area so that people of all beliefs and non-belief have the opportunity to comment and ask questions.

And I hope those who are critics of Judaism, do ask questions. Because I am an open book. And I will answer any question asked, regardless of how controversial. And I promise to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Even if that means that the Reform and Conservative Jewish movements in America are described in an very uncomplimentary manner.

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Please list here acts of violence/terrorism/hate perpetrated by Jews on other Jewish sects in the past 100 years (since there are NONE):

1)
2)
3)