The return of Jesus - Ahadith based evidence ??

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

@InvestigateTruth has studied this in greater detail than most of us, He may be able to offer some for you.

RF has been very useful as I understood what you required for the chain of narration. What we must also consider is that it has to also tie back into the Quran. Thus if we find a strong and substantiated Ahadith, we also know the Quran supports it.

Regards Tony

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Tie back to the Quran? Nothing of this can tie back to the so called "Quran". forget about the Quran in this thread. Purely focus on the ahadith. The return of the Jesus character as an endtimes figure that all Muslims know are all from ahadith. So i wish to discuss the topic in the light of hadith.

And brother, what you said about the "Thus if we find a strong and substantiated Ahadith, we also know the Quran supports it." is absolutely wrong in all kinds of ways. No. The Quran is the Furqan. Not the other way around.

firedragon said:

I did not speak about absolute truth. I spoke of Sarih/Sahih ahadith. Even the so called most authentic ahadith, Mutawathir, Sahih, anything could be unauthentic based on Akal, and Mukaranathun mai furqaan. All of this is possible.

I did not intend to discuss the usul al hadith here brother. I know that even a tarika hadith can be sahih. It could even be completely Sarih. But based on what is that? Is that based on taqlid, Akal which is banned by some of the mainstream schools like the Shafi and its descendants? Whats the ilm used in this?

thats why i asked for hadith that fits the criteria of Sarih and Sahih.

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In Islam, the only way a Hadith can be considered valid, is if it has a basis from the Quran. The reason is, Quran states there is everything in the Book. So, if you cannot find anywhere in the Quran that Jesus body comes down again, this idea is false as far as Islamic belief goes. Because if this idea was true from the site of Allah, then for sure Allah had mentioned it in the Quran, as He says nothing is missed from the Quran, whether in sky or on the earth, it is in the Quran.
But, on the other hand, the Hadithes that talks about return of Christ are too many, and are narrated by different chains. So, it is impossible to say, logically, neither Muhammad nore Shia Imams did not say That Christ returns.
But now, we just have to see, how come, this is not mentioned in the Quran? Perhaps, it is mentioned figuratively or it is hidden in a verse.
Then we see in the Quran, Allah says, He took Christ up to Himself. In another verse, Christ says He rises again. But, if Allah took Him up, how can He rise again on the Day of Resurrection?

Insights, pray for God to give you insights. I don't believe in the way Ilmel rijal goes about analyzing who is trustworthy and who isn't.

That said here are some Shiite hadiths:


Shahr ibn Hawshab said, “Al-Hajjaj said to me, ‘There is a verse in the Book of Allah that has wearied me.’ I said, ‘O Commander! Which verse is it?’ He said, ‘His saying,

‘And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them. (4:159)’

By Allah! I command a Jew and a Christian to be beheaded, then I look at them with my own eyes, but I do not see them moving their lips when they die.’ I said, ‘May Allah reform the Commander! It is not as you have interpreted it.’ He said, ‘How is it?’

I said, ‘Verily, Jesus will descend to the world before the Resurrection Day, then the people of the Jewish nation or Christian nation will not remain [on the earth] unless they believe in him before their death and will pray behind al-Mahdi.’ He said, ‘Woe unto you! Where did you bring it from?’ I said, ‘Muhammad ibn ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn ‘Ali ibn Abu Talib (‘a) narrated it to me.’ He said, ‘By Allah! You brought it from a pure spring.’”

Tafsir Al-Qummi, 1, 158

The Apostle of Allah said, “How can a community perish when I am at the beginning of it, Jesus the son of Mary will be at the end of it and al-Mahdi will be in the middle of it. Dala’il al-Imamah, 234

The Apostle of Allah (S) said, “Good news for you. [He repeated it three times.] … How can the community of which I am the first perish? There are twelve persons after me who are felicitous and possess understanding and Christ Jesus the son of Mary is at the end of them. But between them, the children of confusion will perish. They are not from me and I am not from them.” Khisal, 2, 476

Abu al-Qasim al-Ta’i said, “I asked ‘Ali ibn Musa Al-Ridha’ about he who will fight from us. He said, “He who will fight with the companion of Jesus the son of Mary." Sahifah Al-Ridha’, 89

It is reported that Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a) said, “Jesus the son of Mary is the Spirit of Allah and His Word. He was thirty-three years old in the world. Then Allah raised him to heaven. He will descend to the earth and it is he who will kill the Antichrist (Dajjal.)” Tafsir Al-Qummi, 2, 271

Hudhayfah reported that the Prophet (S) said, “Al-Mahdi will turn his face to Jesus when he descends as if water were dropping from his hair, and will say to him, ‘Go ahead and say the prayer.’ Jesus will say, ‘The prayer has been set up only for you.’ So, Jesus will pray behind a man who is among my sons.” Sirat al-Mustaqim, 2, 257

It is reported that the Prophet (S) said, “Among my progeny is the Mahdi. When he emerges, Jesus the son of Mary will descend to help him, then Jesus will send him ahead and pray behind him.” Bihar, 14, 349

Khaythama reported that Abu Ja‘far said, “…O Khaythama! There will come a time for the people when they will not know who is Allah and His unity until Dajjal appears and Jesus the son of Mary, may peace and blessings be with both of them, descends from the sky, and Allah will kill Dajjal by his hands and a man that is from our House will pray with the people. Do you not know that Jesus will pray behind us, although he is a prophet? Beware that we are better than him.” Bihar, 24, 328, 46


If you are interested in about Ilmel Rijaal, you should ask people interested in that stuff.

To me, it's sufficient that these ahadith verify the clear meaning of Quran.

firedragon said:

Tie back to the Quran? Nothing of this can tie back to the so called "Quran". forget about the Quran in this thread. Purely focus on the ahadith. The return of the Jesus character as an endtimes figure that all Muslims know are all from ahadith. So i wish to discuss the topic in the light of hadith.

And brother, what you said about the "Thus if we find a strong and substantiated Ahadith, we also know the Quran supports it." is absolutely wrong in all kinds of ways. No. The Quran is the Furqan. Not the other way around.

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Everything in the Sunnah is in the Quran. The problem with Quran is that there is a intense sorcery that veils people from the wise and clear recitation. That is one reason we need the Sunnah, to help us break the locks and untie the knots and break lose what they try to hide in the Quran.

firedragon said:

Tie back to the Quran? Nothing of this can tie back to the so called "Quran". forget about the Quran in this thread. Purely focus on the ahadith. The return of the Jesus character as an endtimes figure that all Muslims know are all from ahadith. So i wish to discuss the topic in the light of hadith.

And brother, what you said about the "Thus if we find a strong and substantiated Ahadith, we also know the Quran supports it." is absolutely wrong in all kinds of ways. No. The Quran is the Furqan. Not the other way around.

Click to expand...

The Quran increases in guidance the more knowledge you get brother. The hadiths are necessary to unveil Quran, but Quran is also sufficient as guidance. This may seem contradictory, but Quran for example, doesn't teach you Arabic. People do. Therefore, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

The Quran was not revealed in isolation. The Sunnah complimented it and was a point so important, more then today, because, the Quran was revealed slowly and dynamically built.

firedragon said:

I would like to request from those who believe that Jesus will return in some form or the other based on Ahadith, could you quote Authentic, Sarih hadith from any of the books of ahadith?

My intention is to understand what ahadith are quoted as evidence to the topic. Clear-cut evidence, not inference. I would state my objections if the evidence is not clear, or if its not Sarih. Please do quote authentic ahadith only. This is a very wide area as some say there over a million ahadith and maybe even more. So please be kind and considerate to the topic and criteria only to make it an expedient and valuable takeout.

(I made my intention clear so that one would not make ad hominem about intentions when i respond)

Thank you very much.

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Hadiths are not the authoritative Word of God. The Quran is the only true authoritative text in Islam. In the Quran there are many references to the Day of Judgement and the Great Announcement and the Day of Resurrection which is none other than the arising of a new Manifestation of God.

These references are too numerous to cite and are authoritative.

How do you know Quran is true? If you true to bypass hadiths, you will not know Quran is true. You may believe just as every religious person believes in something, but you will never know it because you will be far removed from it's light and interpretation.

loverofhumanity said:

Hadiths are not the authoritative Word of God. The Quran is the only true authoritative text in Islam. In the Quran there are many references to the Day of Judgement and the Great Announcement and the Day of Resurrection which is none other than the arising of a new Manifestation of God.

These references are too numerous to cite and are authoritative.

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If the topic is "jesus second coming in bible", though I dont believe the bible has any authority, the topic is topic. Hope you understand.

Link said:

How do you know Quran is true? If you true to bypass hadiths, you will not know Quran is true. You may believe just as every religious person believes in something, but you will never know it because you will be far removed from it's light and interpretation.

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Of you wish to discuss whatever you mean by "how do you know Quran is true without hadith" please open a new topic. It's not relevant to this.

If the topic is about the bagwath gita, true or not is a different topic. What it says is a different topic. If you cant make the distinction, then you are making logical fallacies.

InvestigateTruth said:

In Islam, the only way a Hadith can be considered valid, is if it has a basis from the Quran. The reason is, Quran states there is everything in the Book. So, if you cannot find anywhere in the Quran that Jesus body comes down again, this idea is false as far as Islamic belief goes. Because if this idea was true from the site of Allah, then for sure Allah had mentioned it in the Quran, as He says nothing is missed from the Quran, whether in sky or on the earth, it is in the Quran.
But, on the other hand, the Hadithes that talks about return of Christ are too many, and are narrated by different chains. So, it is impossible to say, logically, neither Muhammad nore Shia Imams did not say That Christ returns.
But now, we just have to see, how come, this is not mentioned in the Quran? Perhaps, it is mentioned figuratively or it is hidden in a verse.
Then we see in the Quran, Allah says, He took Christ up to Himself. In another verse, Christ says He rises again. But, if Allah took Him up, how can He rise again on the Day of Resurrection?

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Mate. I dont wish to discuss the Quran being everything and ahadith being everythinng or not. Its perfectly irrelevant. Hope you understand.

And your statement "In Islam" is so vague and too vast. According to which fikh are you saying "In Islam, the only way a Hadith can be considered valid, is if it has a basis from the Quran". According to any fikh? Really? Bro. You are making logical statements and i agree. This topic is nothing to do with personal beliefs. I have no affinity to most of what i discuss but the topic wish to discuss is hadith and is explained clearly in the OP. And i must say that you are absolutely wrong. You are logical, i agree with you on your logical deduction, but according to science of hadith in the Sunni madhabs, thats not how it works.

I opened another thread for Quran and return of Jesus topic. Hope you understand.

Peace,

loverofhumanity said:

Hadiths are not the authoritative Word of God. The Quran is the only true authoritative text in Islam. In the Quran there are many references to the Day of Judgement and the Great Announcement and the Day of Resurrection which is none other than the arising of a new Manifestation of God.

These references are too numerous to cite and are authoritative.

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The topic is clear in the OP brother. Its not about the Quran, and its not about the yawmal Qiyamah.

Link said:

The Quran increases in guidance the more knowledge you get brother. The hadiths are necessary to unveil Quran, but Quran is also sufficient as guidance. This may seem contradictory, but Quran for example, doesn't teach you Arabic. People do. Therefore, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

The Quran was not revealed in isolation. The Sunnah complimented it and was a point so important, more then today, because, the Quran was revealed slowly and dynamically built.

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Bro please open a new thread if you wish to discuss Sunnah and why that is important etc etc etc.

Alright. Can i ask a different type of question? I mean in a different manner.

What are the ahadith pertaining to the topic coming from Abu Bakr, Ali, Umar, Uthman (Ral)?

firedragon said:

I would like to request from those who believe that Jesus will return in some form or the other based on Ahadith, could you quote Authentic, Sarih hadith from any of the books of ahadith?

My intention is to understand what ahadith are quoted as evidence to the topic. Clear-cut evidence, not inference. I would state my objections if the evidence is not clear, or if its not Sarih. Please do quote authentic ahadith only. This is a very wide area as some say there over a million ahadith and maybe even more. So please be kind and considerate to the topic and criteria only to make it an expedient and valuable takeout.

(I made my intention clear so that one would not make ad hominem about intentions when i respond)

Thank you very much.

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Jesus is a sinless prophet and Lord of Judgment Day, so obeying Him implies adherence to the torah and gospels!

BilliardsBall said:

Jesus is a sinless prophet and Lord of Judgment Day, so obeying Him implies adherence to the torah and gospels!

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I respect your faith brother. But thats not the topic i am addressing as you probably see.

If you are just looking for hadithes regarding return of Christ, here are two recorded in Bihar:

6- Ihtijaaj: It is narrated from Zaid bin Wahab Jahni from Hasan bin Ali bin
Abu Talib from his father (a.s.) that he said:
“In the last period of time, the Almighty Allah will raise a man among
the illiterate masses whom He will support by His angels and protect his
helpers, help him through His signs and he will conquer the whole world. All
would enter the fold of religion willingly or unwillingly. He would fill the
earth with justice, equity and proof. No disbeliever will remain without
accepting faith. During his rule, even the wild beasts would become tame.
And the earth will through up its vegetation. Blessings will descend from the
sky. The treasures buried in the earth will be exposed and he would rule the
world for forty years. Fortunate would be one who lives till that time and
hears his speech.”


Abu Huraira has narrated from the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.)
with regard to the descent of Isa (a.s.) that he said: During his time, except for
Islam, all the religious groups would become extinct. Dajjal would be killed,
and then Isa (a.s.) would remain alive for forty years. When he passes away,
the Muslims would offer his funeral prayers.



54- Muntakhabul Basair: Saad has narrated from Ibne Isa from Umar bin
Abdul Aziz from a man from Jamil bin Darraj from Mualla bin Khunais and Zaid
Shaham from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:

“The first one to do Rajat will be Imam Husain (a.s.) and he will rule for
forty years till his brows will sag upon his eyes.”

InvestigateTruth said:

If you are just looking for hadithes regarding return of Christ, here are two recorded in Bihar:

6- Ihtijaaj: It is narrated from Zaid bin Wahab Jahni from Hasan bin Ali bin
Abu Talib from his father (a.s.) that he said:
“In the last period of time, the Almighty Allah will raise a man among
the illiterate masses whom He will support by His angels and protect his
helpers, help him through His signs and he will conquer the whole world. All
would enter the fold of religion willingly or unwillingly. He would fill the
earth with justice, equity and proof. No disbeliever will remain without
accepting faith. During his rule, even the wild beasts would become tame.
And the earth will through up its vegetation. Blessings will descend from the
sky. The treasures buried in the earth will be exposed and he would rule the
world for forty years. Fortunate would be one who lives till that time and
hears his speech.”


Abu Huraira has narrated from the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.)
with regard to the descent of Isa (a.s.) that he said: During his time, except for
Islam, all the religious groups would become extinct. Dajjal would be killed,
and then Isa (a.s.) would remain alive for forty years. When he passes away,
the Muslims would offer his funeral prayers.



54- Muntakhabul Basair: Saad has narrated from Ibne Isa from Umar bin
Abdul Aziz from a man from Jamil bin Darraj from Mualla bin Khunais and Zaid
Shaham from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:

“The first one to do Rajat will be Imam Husain (a.s.) and he will rule for
forty years till his brows will sag upon his eyes.”

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Brother. I am looking for Clear and authentic ahadith.

I am sorry i made that distinction because there are millions of ahadith and i explained that in the OP. There are hadith that say there are 7 different earths that is swimming on top of a fish. There are hadith that say the earth is onn top of a cows head and when it shakes its head we get earthquakes.

So you can find ahadith to justify anything. A useless path.

You are quoting a book from a few centuries ago. There are older and more authentic ahadith you could easily quote. But you will see, that you are finding it difficult to even find in ahadith, the authenticity that is needed to be genuine in this subject.

firedragon said:

Brother. I am looking for Clear and authentic ahadith.

I am sorry i made that distinction because there are millions of ahadith and i explained that in the OP. There are hadith that say there are 7 different earths that is swimming on top of a fish. There are hadith that say the earth is onn top of a cows head and when it shakes its head we get earthquakes.

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What's funny is those ahadith you mention have "authentic chains" while the best and most eloquent and useful words in our literature have no chains or are of unknown narrators including Saheefa Sajjadiya.

Ilmel Rijaal is no way to determine the truth, it's a guessing game that produces frankly random and false results.

Link said:

What's funny is those ahadith you mention have "authentic chains" while the best and most eloquent and useful words in our literature have no chains or are of unknown narrators including Saheefa Sajjadiya.

Ilmel Rijaal is no way to determine the truth, it's a guessing game that produces frankly random and false results.

Click to expand...

I didnt ask for truth or anything of that matter. And ilmal rijal is just following what someone said is the chain hundreds of years after Muhammed is the chain or the men who narrated the story. If you want to debate the science of ahadith etc etc etc and all the topics you wish open threads for each.

I'm happy you found some humour beother.

Salaamun alaika.

I believe the only consideration I can show is that someone else believes in Hadiths. I don't.