Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Context does matter..as long as it's use correctly..
But you haven't use anything correctly.
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The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
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Context does matter..as long as it's use correctly..
But you haven't use anything correctly.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
My question to you is...do you know what spiritual discernment is..
Upon reading the Bible..what you read in black and white or red white is called
the letter of the word..
The spirit of the word is totally different.
The spirit of the word is not something written down..
It's taking what is written down and seeing to understand what the Spirit of God is saying in the spiritual realm..
As Jesus Christ said in John 6:63---"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
The words that Jesus Christ speaks are spirit... therefore it takes spiritual discernment to understand what the spirit of God is saying in the spiritual realm.
Note that Jesus Christ also said in
Revelation 2:7--"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God"
Do you have the ear to hear what the Spirit of God is saying in the spiritual realm?
Jesus Christ said in Revelation 3:13---"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches"
Do you understand what the Spirit of God is saying?
Notice disciple Paul said in
1 Corinthians 2:14---"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"
Do you understand what spiritual discernment is?
This will take Spiritual discernment to understand that in the book of
Mark 13, Jesus Christ foretold what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is
And when it will happen
And who are the ones that can commit it.
It's all there in Mark 13.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
This has already been covered before, and all that you are doing is intentionally conflating two different things. Here's from a source not affiliated with any denomination:
The Lord's Day in Christianity is generally Sunday, the principal day of communal worship. It is observed by most Christians as the weekly memorial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is said in the canonical Gospels to have been witnessed alive from the dead early on the first day of the week. The phrase appears in Rev. 1:10...
Christians held corporate worship on Sunday in the 1st century. An early example of Christians meeting together on a Sunday for the purpose of "breaking bread" and preaching is cited in the New Testament book of Acts (Acts 20:7). 2nd-century writers such as Justin Martyr attest to the widespread practice of Sunday worship (First Apology, chapter 67), and by 361 AD it had become a mandated weekly occurrence...
Around 170 AD, Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote to the Roman Church, "Today we have kept the Lord's holy day (kyriake hagia hemera), on which we have read your letter." In the latter half of the 2nd century, the apocryphal Acts of Peter identify Dies Domini (Latin for "Lord's Day") as "the next day after the Sabbath," i.e., Sunday. From the same period of time, the Acts of Paul present St. Paul praying "on the Sabbath as the Lord's Day (kyriake) drew near." However, the Lord's day is identified with the Sabbath in the Acts of John as "on the seventh day, it being the Lord's day, he said to them: now it is time for me also to partake of food."... -- Lord's Day - Wikipedia
Also, what you ignore is the fact that Jesus gave the power of discernment and possible changes that could be made to his Apostles, and they in turn passed this on to their appointees.
Finally, your position is very hypocritical since the Shabbat observance with Jews only applies to Jews and is part of the 613 Commandments, all of which are found in Torah: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) Thus, all you are doing is picking & choosing which Commandments that you and others in the SDA want to follow.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Your response...
Your have been shown the context you have left out in the very post you are responding to and have been shown from the scriptures how you are trying to make the scriptures say something that they are not saying.
You have been also asked you the question...
Do the scriptures in Revelation 1:9 say "THE DAY OF THE LORD"? Or do they say "THE LORDS DAY"?
If Revelation 1:9 says John was in the Spirit on "THE LORDS DAY", why do you not believe God's Word and why are you trying to make the scripture say soemthing that it is not saying?
Your response is to ignore God's Word and the questions asked to help you and to try and make it say things it is not saying.
Yep can't see anything when you choose to close your eyes and ears I guess.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Yet here you still are trying to make the scriptures say things they are not saying? God's Spirit does not try to change the meaning of God's Word it works through the Word not outside of it. God's Spirit is the Spirit of the truth of God's Word of God and God's Word is truth *John 6:63; John 17:17.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Actually no it has not been covered. The OP is asking for scripture and you have provided nothing except man made teachings and traditions from the Roman Catholic Church that break the commandments of God. If you have no scripture why for your tradition who are you following; God or man? JESUS says all those who knowingly follow man made teachings and traditions over the Word of God are not following God. Who do you believe God or man? I know who I believe.
Let's look at the evidence both biblically and historically...
Jesus kept and followed the Sabbath which was his custom and taught us how to truly keep the Sabbath holy according to God's 4th commandment *Luke 4:16; Matthew 12:1-12; Mark 2:27-28. JESUS even warned his disciples in the future after his death and resurrection that they would still be keeping the Sabbath *Matthew 24:20 before the destruction of Jerusalem. After the death and resurrection of JESUS the Apostles continued keeping the Sabbath according to God's LAW which was also the custom of Paul the Apostle *Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4
Now even after the death of JESUS and all the Apostles the disciples of JESUS have kept Gods 4th commandment unbroken to this very present day....
Sabbath Observance - The first Century A.D.
JOSEPHUS
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.
PHILO
Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99
So we have incontrovertible proof that the observance of sunday was NOT practiced by the apostolic church of the first century. Although the poison of apostasy had already begun, it did not reach the ascendancy until the passage of a few more centuries.
The next installment will show the historical record of the early christians observing the true seventh day Sabbath in the second century A.D.
Sabbath Observance - The Second Century A.D.
EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).
EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14
EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.
EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).
EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77
Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. It illustrates the apostasy that Paul the Apostle foretold of when he spoke about a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
You know already my friend that I have historical references showing God has had a people all through time to this present day that have kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath unbroken as I have shared these with you in another thread and happy to re-post them here. Your response was to simply ignore them.
Seems like there are two groups forming. Those who believe and follow God's Word and those who follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. Who's side will you be on?
God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him. Those who do not are not God's Sheep.
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Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Well you just proved my case as written
in 1 Corinthians 2:14---"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"
Like I said..Jesus Christ foretold in the book of Mark 13, what the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.
And when it will happen
And who are the ones that can commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
How can you prove your case when you have never made one to begin with and by simply ignoring the posts and scriptures that show why you are in error? Perhaps your words are for yourself. I was not the one trying to make Revelation 1:10 say things it was not saying. I was also not the one trying to claim that "THE LORDS DAY" as some teach is Sunday for which there is no scripture. You either have God's Word for your faith or you do not. It seems you do not.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
As for Revelation 1:10.. as for John was in the spirit on the Lord's day.
At that moment and time..John was not of flesh and blood..but in the Spiritual realm.
And John was showed by Jesus Christ himself the things that were to happen just before the return of Jesus Christ and after the return of Jesus Christ.
The Lord's day being the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Talk about not answering. I gave you how Jesus Christ foretold in the book of
Mark 13...what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is
And when it will happen
And who the people are who can commit it.
It's all there in Mark 13 just as Jesus Christ gave Prophecy the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Revelation 1:10 says that JOHN was in the Spirit on "THE LORDS DAY" not the "DAY OF THE LORD" he was in the presence of JESUS in the Heavenly Sanctuary. This is the context of Revelation 1:10-18. Context matters and you ignore it the same as you ignore my question to you what does the scripture say; "THE LORDS DAY" or "THE DAY OF THE LORD"? This only shows that your trying to make the scriptures say things they are not saying.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
This has repeatedly been explained to you, and yet you just repeat the same ole same ole. Now you have also shown your religious bigotry with the above, which is appalling in this day and age. At least the denomination that I belong to doesn't stoop to that low, although admittedly they used to.
It is people using your disingenuous tactics that have caused so much damage to people and numerous societies over the centuries, and yet you can't even see beyond the end of your nose the possible ramifications of what you are doing. It's such religious bigotry that you use that was the main cause of what happened on 9-11, the Holocaust, many terrorist bombings, etc. It's the "my way or the highway" approach that is so narrow-minded and intolerant of other ideas, thus expecting everyone to conform to what you so blindly believe.
And serious exchange of ideas, which at least most here at RF do, involves trying to understand other opinions and approaches even of we may disagree with them, and yet you are clearly not willing to do that.
Pathetic-- truly pathetic.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
What? It is true you have tried to explain away Gods' Word that is about it. The OP is asking for scripture and you have provided nothing except man made teachings and traditions from the Roman Catholic Church that break the commandments of God. If you have no scripture why for your tradition who are you following; God or man? JESUS says all those who knowingly follow man made teachings and traditions over the Word of God are not following God. Who do you believe God or man? I know who I believe.
As posted earlier.. Why make empty claims that are not true? It is not bigotry to share God's Word. If someone does not agree with it than it is between that person and God. I do not judge them. I have only shared Gods' Word with you and some others, but you do not believe it. So your argument is with God not me. There is no such thing as replacement theology. It is simply a term invented by men by those who do not believe the scriptures pointing to the coming of the Messiah revealed in JESUS and the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise of JEREMIAH 31:31-34 to all those who believe and follow God's Word.
I believe that the scriptures teach God has his people in every church who are living up to all the light (knowledge) that God has revealed to them. The scriptures teach that as we grow in God's grace, in times of ignorance, when we do not know any better God does not hold us accountable for sin *JAMES 4:17, but when God gives us a knowledge of His truth through his Word he expects us to believe and follow it *ACTS 17:30-31. At this time (when God gives us a knowledge of the truth and we reject it) we willfully sin after we have been given a knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of judgment to come *HEBEREWS 10:26-27 because those who willfilly deny God's Word, reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39.
Your claims of bigotry and judgment are simply your empty words that have no truth in them because your not able to respond to the scriptures shared in love as a help to you. According to the scriptures, God's people are those who believe and follow God's Word (present tense) and have not wilfully rejected His Word when He sends them a knowledge of his truth. If we do not believe and follow Gods' Word then we are not God's people but simply unbelievers.
God's Word tells us not to judge according to outward appearance but to judge righteous judgment *JOHN 7:24. None of us are righteous *ROMANS 3:10. Only Gods Word is righteous *ROMANS 3:21-22; JOHN 1:1-4; 14; ISAIAH 45:19; PSALMS 119:123; PSALMS 119:172; PSALMS 119:137; PSALMS 119:144. I do not judge you or anyone here according to outward appearance *ROMANS 2:1-13. It is the Word of God that has been shared with you but you do not believe it. It is the Word of God that is our righteous judgment that we are to judge by because it is the Word of God that will be our very judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.
Now if I only share the Word of God with you, who is your Judge me or the scriptures you claim to believe? If you say you believe the scriptures what is it that has been written here that is not God's Word and if it is God's Word, why do you not believe it?
If you take a step back, you will only see I have been sharing God's Word with you but you do not believe it.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Let's get back on topic.....
Q. WHAT DAY IS THE "LORD'S DAY" ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?
A. MATTHEW 12:8 [8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Which day is the Lord's Day? THE SABBATH DAY (MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28)
God's WORD says that the SABBATH DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY!
There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)
Can you show from the scriptures alone that Sunday is "THE LORDS DAY" if not why not? If we cannot are we following man made teachings that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9?
May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word.
Q. WHAT DAY IS THE "LORD'S DAY" ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?
A. MATTHEW 12:8 [8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Which day is the Lord's Day? THE SABBATH DAY (MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28)
God's WORD says that the SABBATH DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY!
There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)
Can you show from the scriptures alone that Sunday is "THE LORDS DAY" if not why not? If we cannot are we following man made teachings that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9?
May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
There are many topics for discussion. I currently have 4x open which is enough for me for the time being. Do you have anything to add to this OP? Why do you worship God on Sunday instead of the day that God has commanded his people to keep Holy through His Word? Do you believe and follow God's Word or like many others the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9?
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I already responded to this thread. Unlike you, I see no need to repeat myself dozens of times. I generally explain what I believe and why and then just allow the Holy Ghost to do what He does best -- i.e. confirm to those who want to know the truth whether what I've said is right or not. I just don't think it serves much purpose to continue to harp on something to the point where everybody is just sick to death of hearing it. If you haven't convinced people that you're right and they're wrong by your third attempt, I don't know why you think your sixty-fifth attempt is going to produce any different results.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
I see, so in your view it is better to follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God over the Word of God? Jesus says those who knowingly follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 15:3-9. Does this not concern you? According to the scriptures it should *HEBREWS 10:26-39.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
See, there you go again.
My guess is that you're going to continue to repeat the same exact verses for a few hundred more posts and then finally give up and leave RF.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
There is no NT scripture that identifies Saturday as the Lords day.
There is no NT scripture that commands a believer to keep the saturday sabbath.
Nine of the ten commandments are reiterated multiple times in the NT, the sabbath commandment is never mentioned.
The writings of the early Christians make it clear that Christians abandoned the Jewish custom of worship on the Sabbath (seventh day) and instead held the first day, which they called the Lord's Day, to be the sacred day of worship. One of the simplest explanations on the subject comes from Tertullian, around 200 AD:
But why is it, you ask, that we gather on the Lord's Day to celebrate our solemnities? Because that was the way the Apostles also did.
-- De Fuga in Persecutione, XIV: 11
This was not an innovation of the second century AD, as a full century earlier, (101 AD,) we find Ignatius saying:
Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day on which our life was sprung by him and his death.
-- Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 9
And just in case there is any confusion as to the identity of the Lord's Day, we can turn to Justin Martyr. (140 AD)
And on the day which is called Sunday there is an assembly in the same place of all who live in cities or in country districts; and the records of the apostles, or the writings of the prophets, are read as long as we have time.
...
Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the day on which God, when he changed the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.
-- Apologies 1:67
And again from Justin Martyr, we see that Christians did not keep the Jewish holy days:
We neither accord with the Jews in their peculiarities in regard to food nor in their sacred days.
-- Apologies Sec. 21
You are worried about folks following the traditions of men, and indirectly judge their souls on that basis.
If I were you, I would be very careful about that.
Lets look at the Seventh Day Adventists, the Seventh Day Baptists, and the Worldwide Church of God and their teaching that Christians must keep the sabbath.
There is much written in the NT about the freedom of the Gospel, the freedom of the New Covenant. It means a number of things, including the freedom to worship on any one day, or all days as you choose.
Well then, if your Church teaches that the New Covenant Church
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Must keep the sabbath, yet the NT does not say that, aren't YOU teaching the commandments of men ?
Your Church came to this position by the impetus of your alleged prophet, Ellen Gould White, not by the New Testament, the revelation of the New Covenant. A cynic would say that she had her prophecy regarding the sabbath when a wealthy retired sea captain, Joseph Bates, a sabbath keeper, was considering joining the early group that would become the SDA Church. Perhaps Ellen thought that keeping the sabbath was worth the money he would bring to the group ?
No matter, There is no New Testament commandment to keep the sabbath. The Lords day, sunday, was kept by the early Church, and this is what John was referring to.
If you, and all the other members of the SDA church, including my family members, feel you must keep the saturday sabbath, by all means, you must. You are free to do so because of the freedom of the Gospel, just as I am free not to keep the sabbath, or any day. I am free to keep all days if I choose.
You are not free to judge me or anyone else by YOUR conscience.
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