firedragon
Veteran Member
I believe you have not understood the OP.
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Return of Jesus
- Thread starter firedragon
- Start date
I believe you have not understood the OP.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Is there proof in the text that Jesus the son of Mary will return? Because, as you well know, Baha'is are claiming that Jesus, himself, is not the one that will return, but the "Christ", which they say is their prophet. They disregard any NT reference about the Second Coming that actually mentions the name, Jesus.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
I'm sorry but that doesn't mean anything. "Jesus is a knowledge of the hour" that have to be an interpretation.
It says ALL of them will believe in him BEFORE his death.
We know that many disbelived in him before his "death".
You are absolutely not clear concerning those verses.
Also what do you think of this verse ? :
3.185 Every soul will taste death, and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. (...)
Do you believe that Jesus died ? If yes you contradicted the verse :
4.517 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" (...
He wasn't killed but all soul must taste death. what's your opinion on that ?
5.75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food.
Jesus was the Messiah yes but he was also a messenger among other messengers and like the others died before him he will also die.
Thank you that is an excellent point of exegetical data for hypothesis:
43:60-61 And if We please, We could make among you angels to be successors in the land. And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.
This clearly states a time identification factor this is before the Judgement Day Fire - which is a sign to mankind, so it has to be seen.
4:159: And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
This states it will be Christ who is a witness before the Judgement Day Fire.
If we cross reference this with the Bible, it says the exact same thing: Christ comes as Jonah, Noah, Lot (Before the Day of Destruction) in Luke 17:20-37 before the Judgement Day Fire.
Christ comes as the First resurrected being, before the rest are resurrected; like a Bud from the Fig Tree of Judah before Summer (Matthew 24:27-51) - This being (the Fig) from Hindu texts is called Skanda.
In my opinion.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
I understood that. And i would like to see which Quranic verses are depicting the return of the "al masihu isa ubnu maryama" or even a "al masihu bi rooh" or the christ in spirit.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No it doesn't.
Thats just too much inference. Way way too much. And you have completely ignored the first part of that single, small verse brother. It says "Immin ahlil kithab", some of them only believed "la yuminanna". It does not say all of them will believe in him before his death. No way. Its not only too much inference, you are plain wrong. I am not being rude brother, i am just saying its plain wrong.
It says few of the ahlil kithab would have believed him before his death. But on the day of resurrection he would be a witness against them (the ahlil kithab). It means a lot of them rejected him while he was alive and he will be a witness against them.
It does not say all of them will believe in him before his death. No way.
Other verses about him being a messenger and that he will also die is inference or absolute extrapolation of cosmic levels.
Equating him in that verse to other prophets or messengers would in contrast naturally mean that Jesus will also die the same way. It does not mean he is special, he will not die but will be taken in spirit and will return as a messianic figure in the future and end times of mankind. Rather, he will die as any other messenger died. If he is a messennger like other messengers before him who died like the verse says, he is also the same.
This is the verse you quoted. 5.75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food.
Thats way too much extrapolation. No, its worse than extrapolation. Its actually claiming the exact opposite this verse.
But thanks for showing me what you think is evidence to the return of Jesus.
Peace.
Allah resurrects him as a humanbeing to speak with mankind before the Day of Judgement, else how can he be a sign of 'knowledge of the hour'?
The ideas of him being human, has nothing to do with Allah being able to manifest his Word - sending the Messiah back as a warning to mankind.
In my opinion.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No. You turned it around. It says "Yawmal Kiyamathi" or "On the judgment day", not "Kabla yawmal kiyamathi".
So thats made up.
So brother, that statement is completely bogus. Its not true.
You quoted 43:60 and 61.
43:60 And if We willed, We could have made some of you angels to be successors on the earth.
43:61 And he was a lesson/ilm/knowledge for the Hour. So have no doubt about it. And follow Me; this is a straight path.
43:62 And let not the devil repel you; he is to you a clear enemy.
43:63 And when Jesus came with the proofs, he said: “I have come to you with the wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. So be aware of God and obey me.”
Read in context. Jesus "Came" with proofs. "He said" i have come to you....... Its talking about when Jesus was there.
Its quoting Jesus saying things when he was here.
1. "Before" the judgment day idea of yours is false, bogus, misquoting.
2. Other verses are quoting Jesus when he was here.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Allah resurrects him as a humanbeing to speak with mankind before the Day of Judgement, else how can he be a sign of 'knowledge of the hour'?
The ideas of him being human, has nothing to do with Allah being able to manifest his Word - sending the Messiah back as a warning to mankind.
In my opinion.
Invalid bro because you are giving a khutba. Not "Clear-cut evidence from the Quran".
Wow, thank you, hadn't noticed all the additional contexts:
In verse 43:70 it is referring to the Day of Judgement, and those who are allowed into the Messianic Age i.e. Paradise, the rest are sent to the Lake of Fire (43:74) on the Painful Day (43:65).
43:63 is that Christ comes with clear proofs (a new special name, and signs from the world's religious texts), yet people will not listen to his correction of theology (43:63-64), and so Judgement Day still happens.
43:66 is paraphrasing the Day of Judgement comes on the whole world unexpectedly in 21:39-40, etc.
Those who have accepted the Messiah as King (Malik) in 43:77, will be here in the Age to Come.
In my opinion.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Wow, thank you, hadn't noticed all the additional contexts:
In verse 43:70 it is referring to the Day of Judgement, and those who are allowed into the Messianic Age i.e. Paradise, the rest are sent to the Lake of Fire (43:74) on the Painful Day (43:65).
43:63 is that Christ comes with clear proofs (a new special name, and signs from the world's religious texts), yet people will not listen to his correction of theology (43:63-64), and so Judgement Day still happens.
43:66 is paraphrasing the Day of Judgement comes on the whole world unexpectedly in 21:39-40, etc.
Those who have accepted the Messiah as King (Malik) in 43:77, will be here in the Age to Come.
In my opinion.
Its a lie. It doesnt say "christ comes"
43:63 And when Jesus came with the proofs, he said: “I have come to you with the wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. So be aware of God and obey me.”
Do you understand? Jeem, Alif with madwajib and ain. Jaa. Its "Came". Not comes. And it says "Kaala", that means "said". Not "Will say when he comes back".
1. None of that gives any kind of clear evidence to the request of the OP.
2. You misquoted verses, again brother. You turned things so badly. Came became when he comes, etc etc.
Cheers.
43:63 is about Judgement Day, where there were things that people differed over Christ's first coming (43:59), yet in his second (43:61), he will fix the things in which they differed about...
Yet people are all divided by religious labels (43:65), so they argue that is not my religious texts, and don't listen to his corrections.
This is all about the topic, and even other Muslims across the web cite this.... I'm just relating it in more precise detail.
Because we don't understand contexts, finding the first aspect we think is wrong about the Quran, doesn't prove our own understanding superior.
Please use evidence; rather than statements like "liar, misquoting, invalid'.
As if this was a maths exam, I've given workings in precise details for 43:59-74'ish...
The whole paragraph is about people not listening to God's messengers, as it references Moses and Pharaoh before it.
In my opinion.
firedragon
Veteran Member
43:63 is about Judgement Day, where there were things that people differed over Christ's first coming (43:59), yet in his second (43:61), he will fix the things in which they differed about...
Yet people are all divided by religious labels (43:65), so they argue that is not my religious texts, and don't listen to his corrections.
This is all about the topic, and even other Muslims across the web cite this.... I'm just relating it in more precise detail.
Because we don't understand contexts, finding the first aspect we think is wrong about the Quran, doesn't prove our own understanding superior.
Please use evidence; rather than statements like "liar, misquoting, invalid'.
As if this was a maths exam, I've given workings in precise details for 43:59-74'ish...
The whole paragraph is about people not listening to God's messengers, as it references Moses and Pharaoh before it.
In my opinion.
Since i have given you details earlier, you can go back and check where you have made those twisting of simple basic grammar.
Thanks a lot for your response. Have a super day akhi.
Peace.
You haven't given details that are logical, it seems you're confused by basics in the text, and then argue everyone else is a liar.
Try reading other prophetic texts, many prophets speak in a past tense of things that are to happen; it is a confirmation of events they've seen as having happened.
The criteria set out by the text of 43:59-77 actually defines it is before the Judgement Day Fire, and Christ warning the world before the wicked are sent to Hell, and the Godly who accept the King as Messiah remain after in Paradise.
What is crazy on the part of many is the same thing is recorded in Zoroastrian, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Hebraic texts, etc, and the Quran confirms this is what shall happen...
The Bringer of Truth comes before the Judgement Day Fire, and then there is a New Earth after.
In my opinion.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No it doesnt.
43:56 We thus made them a thing of the past, and an example for the others.
43:57 And when the son of Mary was put forth as an example, your people turned away from it.
43:58 And they said: “Our gods are better or is he?” They only put this forth to argue with you. Indeed, they are a quarrelsome people.
43:59 He was no more than a servant whom We graced, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.
43:60 And if We willed, We could have made some of you angels to be successors on the earth.
43:61 And he was a lesson for the Hour. So have no doubt about it. And follow Me; this is a straight path.
43:62 And let not the devil repel you; he is to you a clear enemy.
43:63 And when Jesus came with the proofs, he said: “I have come to you with the wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. So be aware of God and obey me.”
43:64 “God is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. This is a straight path.”
43:65 The Confederates disputed among themselves. So, woe to those who have been wicked from the retribution of a painful Day.
43:66 Do they only wait for the Hour to come to them suddenly, while they do not perceive?
43:67 Friends on that Day will become enemies of one another, except for the righteous.
43:68 “O My servants, you will have no fear on this Day, nor will you grieve.”
43:69 They are the ones who believed in Our revelations, and had submitted.
43:70 “Enter Paradise, together with your spouses, in happiness.”
43:71 They will be served with golden trays and cups, and they will find everything the self desires and the eyes wish for, and you will abide therein.
43:72 And this is Paradise that you have inherited, in return for your works.
43:73 In it you will have all kinds of fruits, from which you eat.
Nowhere does it say Jesus is coming back. In fact, verse 56 (above right there) says its an example of the past.
The reason there are matters they 'differ over', is because of the first coming (43:56-59), the contexts applied as we have already been showing from 43:60-77, talks clearly about just before the Day of Judgement.
The reason for the confusion is not taking on board 43:56-60 is a section about Yeshua being rejected in the past, 'and' then shall return at Judgement Day (43:60-77), even though he comes with clear proofs, he is rejected.
Comparatively your misunderstanding over grammar in a few aspects, compared to 75%+ of the individual points aligning with End Times prophecy globally, isn't being logical sorry.
In my opinion.
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Pastek
Sunni muslim
This is only your own interpretation that "wa in min" ahl el kitab ila (..) is "a lot of them".
So you know more than the different translators of the Quran ?
I don't understand can you be more clear ?
I asked you if you believe that Jesus died and if not what you think about the verse saying that every soul must taste death.
That was a simple question.
It's better for the debate to at least explain us you point of view concerning Jesus : he died, he didn't ?
Pastek
Sunni muslim
Those who have accepted the Messiah as King (Malik) in 43:77, will be here in the Age to Come.
In my opinion.
Malik is the name of an angel !
The angel of Hell. It's him who is talking to people not Jesus.
Jesus is never called "King" in islamic texts.
Maalik - Wikipedia
A King & Angel in Hebrew sound like 'Malak'.
H4427
מלך
mâlak
maw-lak'
A primitive root; to reign; inceptively to ascend the throne; causatively to induct into royalty; hence (by implication) to take counsel: - consult, X indeed, be (make, set a, set up) king, be (make) queen, (begin to, make to) reign (-ing), rule, X surely.
H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
The Quran 43:77 said the same as Yeshua said, those who do not accept the Messiah as King, get removed from reality at Judgement Day (Luke 19:27).
In my opinion.
firedragon
Veteran Member
So how do you interpret Wa
Beother. Whether he died or he didny is a completely different discussion and it will derail the topic.
And to respond to your accusation about only my interpretation, rather than appealing to authority, provide your evidence brother, and not a single possibility of that saying "all will believe in jesus before he dies". Also, even then, this is inference of the highest nature. Not clear cut proof. You understand?
None of this yet show jesus is coming back.