Is progressive revelation believable?

amorphous_constellation · Dec 9, 2019

od19g6 said:
We believe that with the coming of each Manifestation is every age new and creative energies are released into the world, even though the world as a whole is not aware of it.

ok, well your post clears it up sufficiently.

So these energies of spirituality in tandem with materialism seem like they are progressively unlocked more and more, throughout the ages. But why should the revelation be so slow? Why should have another 1000 years for new ideas to finally be unlocked

dybmh · Dec 9, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Okay, please do that. Then at least I would know what you mean by objective data.

OK.

I can do that.

I sent you a PM, I think that it might be best to proceed there. And then, if you wish, you can report back to this thread and tell the audience whether or not I have provided ample ( potentially buckets ) of objective data to support my claim. Basically I'll keep bringing evidence till you say "enough".

If any in the audience want a sneak peak at my first strongest piece of objective evidence.

I have only one word.

Kaddish.

If y'all don't know what I'm talking about, then you have no business claiming anything about Judaism.

Question: @Trailblazer, do you think Baha'ullah knew/knows about Kaddish? I doubt it highly.

od19g6 · Dec 9, 2019

'Man's understanding of the universe and his relationship to it is progressive, therefore the Gods and religions created by man are also progressive'.

The thing is man did not create religion. In every age one stainless soul is called / choosen to teach the religion of God.

'Ancient man who had a more primitive understanding of the universe developed primitive concepts of God. As man's understanding of the universe increases the beliefs he creates will change to keep pace. Eventually I suspect there will be no separation between God and the universe. Between science and religion'.

Actually in every age divine revelation is taught according to the capacity of man in the time and place it is revealed in. Think of it as a big school where the grades are from kindergarten to college. The curriculum is given according to the grade it is assigned to.

There will always be a separation of God and the universe. God created the universe

Science will always be a separation of science and religion. Abdu'l-baha, the son and successor of Baha'u'llah says:

'Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism'.

Trailblazer · Dec 9, 2019

dybmh said:
Again. this makes perfect sense. And that's why I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone when they cite their scripture which criticizes Jewish people and Jewish practices. It doesn't matter if it's Islam, Christianity, Atheism, or Baha'i.

It totally takes the pressure off. It's not the person making the claim "Judaism claims to be racially superior". It's Baha'ullah who is Anti-Jewish. And that's a lot less emotionally loaded.

So basically as long as people quote the Baha'i text

I do not know of any Baha’i scripture that criticizes Jewish people or Jewish practices.

Baha’u’llah was not Anti-Jewish.

dybmh said:
Just because a Jewish person does not believe in the Genesis Exodus Story does not mean that "God is not Central in Judaism"

I fully agree with that. Those beliefs are not important or necessary for belief in God.

dybmh said:
All I have to do, is pull out a prayer book That the reform Movement uses now. I think many use Siddur Sim Shalom... but it doesn't matter. I basically know the service by heart. Basically... large portions of it at least.

This prayer book, these prayers I'm talking about... they are recited weekly, often multiple times a week by Jewish people. It is representative of what Reform Judaism "The Religion" perceives as central to it's theology. Now....

Let's be fair. Just because it's in the prayer book, doesn't mean that people believe it. I get that.

The same thing could be said about any believer. Anyone can say prayers. Belief in God is a very personal thing.

dybmh said:
I can bring you books, prayers, practices, anything you desire to prove that God is Central in Judaism.

You are preaching to the choir. You do not have to prove that to me. Sure, there are liberal Jews who do not believe in God or are agnostic. I know a Jewish woman from a forum who is agnostic, but most Jews I know are very reverent towards God and their lives revolve around God.

Trailblazer · Dec 9, 2019

dybmh said:
Thank you for saying this.

Very very much.

I would never say it if I did not mean it...
I am as honest as the day is long in Alaska in summer.

Aupmanyav · Dec 9, 2019

od19g6 said:
It's more proofs than that, namely like the Manifestations life and teachings.

Bahaullah only talked and wrote, and condemned others for being covenant breakers if they differed with him. Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela did more than that, did not condemn even their adversaries. Dont you think they were better manifestations of Allah? What the . are you talking about his life and teachings?

Trailblazer · Dec 9, 2019

dybmh said:
OK.

I can do that.

I sent you a PM, I think that it might be best to proceed there. And then, if you wish, you can report back to this thread and tell the audience whether or not I have provided ample ( potentially buckets ) of objective data to support my claim. Basically I'll keep bringing evidence till you say "enough".

If any in the audience want a sneak peak at my first strongest piece of objective evidence.

Okay, I will be looking.

dybmh said:
I have only one word.

Kaddish.

If y'all don't know what I'm talking about, then you have no business claiming anything about Judaism.

Question: @Trailblazer, do you think Baha'ullah knew/knows about Kaddish? I doubt it highly.

Imo, nobody has any business claiming anything about a religion they do not belong to or practice. Some people think they know more about a religion than the followers, and I know how that feels because it happens to me with people who think they know more about the Baha'i Faith than I know. I have a friend who keeps insisting that the Baha'i Faith is a sect of Islam and I just don't know it.

As for what Baha'u'llah knew, there is no way to know everything He knew, because He did not reveal everything He knew to us, and for good reason...

“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.

How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.

Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176

dybmh · Dec 9, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I do not know of any Baha’i scripture that criticizes Jewish people or Jewish practices.

A claim that Judaism is believes itself to "racially superior" was quoted recently. I think it is one of your posts.

but if not... it's in the other thread that I started in the Baha'i dir.

I could be wrong... I'm going from memory. But this was yesterday... and it stuck out like a sore thumb to me.

Maybe I was scrolling too fast... maybe I'm over-worked and exhausted, I don't know. If you want me to go find it. I will do so. And I will heartily apologize if I am wrong.

But I remember 2 anti-Jewish comments in in the past 24 hours posted here on RF attributed to Baha'ullah or one of the other manifestations... ( I think, I'm not 100% sure of the correct terminology )

The thing is, I am guessing, if I start really diving into this. I will find beaucoup anti-Jewish statements in Baha'i texts.

Trailblazer · Dec 9, 2019

dybmh said:
A claim that Judaism is believes itself to "racially superior" was quoted recently. I think it is one of your posts.

but if not... it's in the other thread that I started in the Baha'i dir.

I could be wrong... I'm going from memory. But this was yesterday... and it stuck out like a sore thumb to me.

Maybe I was scrolling too fast... maybe I'm over-worked and exhausted, I don't know. If you want me to go find it. I will do so. And I will heartily apologize if I am wrong.

But I remember 2 anti-Jewish comments in in the past 24 hours posted here on RF attributed to Baha'ullah or one of the other manifestations... ( I think, I'm not 100% sure of the correct terminology )

The thing is, I am guessing, if I start really diving into this. I will find beaucoup anti-Jewish statements in Baha'i texts.

To be honest, I rarely have time to read posts that are not posted directly to me, or on a thread I am posting on, and I rarely read on threads I am not posting on because I do not have time. Rarely, only on weekends, I get caught up on posts and then I look on other threads but I never even look outside the Religious Debates forum.

The only thing I am aware of that Baha'u'llah said about the Jews was in reference to them rejecting Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Himself. That is a rather long passage I told you I would not post on this forum.
Baha'u'llah was referring to the Jewish leaders during those times, not the Jewish people. Baha'u'llah came down hard on the religious leaders of all the older religions for rejecting Him. I blame the religious leaders for leading people astray, not the followers. The leaders were in power and they were responsible.

CG Didymus · Dec 9, 2019

od19g6 said:
The only fundamental difference with Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad is the social teachings of their revelation in which it was the time and place that is was revealed in.

I may have missed it, but I didn't see your response to my questions.

CG Didymus said:
What were the social teachings of Jesus that were changed by Muhammad?

od19g6 said:
The spiritual teachings are eternal. But the social teachings change from age to age.

And this is what I asked about this one.

CG Didymus said:
In just the major religions, what are the eternal spiritual teachings that each of the religions teaches? And, in each one, what were the social teachings that the next religion in the progression changed?

od19g6 said:
Not if that Prophet comes with proofs of His mission.

And related to those... What were the "proofs" in the New Testament that Jesus was who he claimed to be? Three or four should do.

dybmh · Dec 9, 2019

shunyadragon said:
Out of context

That's not clarifying...

that's denial.

dybmh · Dec 9, 2019

shunyadragon said:
Do you believe the God of Abraham is exclusively the God of Judaism?

No.

But I do believe that God of Abraham is who is described in The Torah. And that is who I am talking about when I say that God is Central in Judaism.

If you are talking about this same God ( the God of Abraham ) when you say, "God is not Central in Judaism" then you have steep hill to climb and very little evidence to work with.

I kinda know how scant your knowledge is at this point. So I can anticipate very little except for geo-political arguments, your subjective opinion about the Jewish people you have met in your life or read about in books magazines, etc.. and Baha'ullah...

The easiest solution... is just to apologize:

Here's how it would sound... OK.. if you're good with it... just thumb-up this post and I will move on. No harm, no foul, it was all just a misunderstanding...

OK? Here it goes:

Dear Dybmh:

I was wrong to make assumptions about Judaism. I know very little about the theology and practices of Jewish people. But it just seems like they are headed in wrong direction based on what I know about it. But clearly, you have a lot more knowledge and experience about it than me. If you are saying that God is Central in Judaism... you probably can back it up with a lot more evidence now, then I will ever have in my entire mortal life. Also, I recognize now, that this whole time I have been judging Judaism ( the religion ) based on how I see people practicing the religion. And I can see that that was faulty logic. I'm sorry for that and for misrepresenting your religion.

Further...

I really appreciate that you are willing to share your knowledge and resources with me, because, all too often Jewish people who are knowledgeable do not seem to be open to sharing detailed information outside of their faith. And for that, I thank you.

dybmh · Dec 9, 2019

Trailblazer said:
The same thing could be said about any believer. Anyone can say prayers. Belief in God is a very personal thing.

And that ^^ is why Kaddish is a perfect example.

But really... it doesn't matter. Because I'm talking theory and theology... you're still talking about what's happening in the hearts and minds of Jewish people while they are praying.

It really is apples and oranges. But Kaddish... especially the Mourners Kaddish... I don't know... I think it's real when people say it. And I have been to quite a few funerals, and I seen literally thousands of people say it. Over the course of 15 years... and even as a kid when we would visit religious family members... cousins.. my Dad's brother's family...

I have participated with them while they are saying it. It is very hard to believe that in those moments God is not included in their prayer, consciously.

And they could be the most irreligious Jewish person on the planet... but while they are saying the Mourners Kaddish... if someone has died... yeah... that's serious.

dybmh · Dec 9, 2019

Trailblazer said:
To be honest, I rarely have time to read posts that are not posted directly to me,

Oh.

I thought that you knew about it, because, it seemed like you were kind of ( forgive me ) coming to @shunyadragon's rescue. I thought you were aware of what he said.

It is no matter. I think our conversation is much more fruitful than what is being offered by this other gentlemen referenced above...

Trailblazer · Dec 9, 2019

dybmh said:
Because I'm talking theory and theology... you're still talking about what's happening in the hearts and minds of Jewish people while they are praying.

I am still kind of confused as to what you mean by theory and theology. That is too vague, it needs a context.

od19g6 · Dec 9, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
But why should the revelation be so slow? Why should have another 1000 years for new ideas to finally be unlocked

You know that's a good question.

It's just how it was ordained, sometimes it takes awhile for humanity as a whole to become more mature and progress to the next level. And around about every 1000 years and new Manifestation comes into the world.

The same question could be said about the growth and maturity of the human being. Why do we have to take 18 years to become grown [or a little younger depends where you live at], why can't it just take 5 years to grow up?

Another analogy you can say about things being ordained is let's say the concept of the u.s. presidency. The rules say that each president the comes into office usually have a 4 year term before the next president comes in. Maybe you can ask why can't presidents only have 2 years?

You see, my point is that sometimes that's just how things is ordained.

Trailblazer · Dec 9, 2019

dybmh said:
Oh.

I thought that you knew about it, because, it seemed like you were kind of ( forgive me ) coming to @shunyadragon's rescue. I thought you were aware of what he said.

I saw "some" of what he said on this thread, that's all. I do not think I can have an opinion unless I keep up on the thread and even then I do not like coming in between other people since I think we all need to deal directly with each other and try to work things out. But if we can't we can't, and I have learned to just move on. It took years but I have learned when to call it quits with some people. If they are convinced they are right let them believe that, it does not affect me because I know they are wrong. This is about my religion, a religion they really know nothing about, so let them arrogantly assume they know more than me, a Baha'i of 49 years. They only make fools out of themselves but lucky for them there is nobody to see them on my forum right now because it is a virtual ghost town.

dybmh · Dec 9, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I am still kind of confused as to what you mean by theory and theology. That is too vague, it needs a context.

Ok sure. Here's an example. I could probably come up with others...

Judaism teaches that God is Omnipotent and is the creator of Heaven and Earth in 7 days or at least 7 stages. Note that I said "Judaism" teaches. Not Jewish people "believe"...

That is theory and theology. When I speak about Judaism, it is not accurate at all... 0% accurate, to say that God did not create Heaven and Earth. That's not Judaism.

However... most American Jewish people do not believe that God is the creator of heaven and earth in 7 stages literally. They generally accept the prevailing scientific consensus. Maybe, I don't know, 50% of those people attribute the scientific consensus as being somehow ordained by God. But a lot of Jewish people do not.

That's the difference between theory and theology ( aka Judaism the religion ) and what people believe.

Here's an analogy.

In theory weight watchers is about losing weight. it doesn't matter if none of the members of weight watchers actually loses weight. Weight Watchers is about losing weight. That's the theory.

It's the same with Judaism...

In theory, and theologically God is Central in Judaism. Even if no one believes it... it's still central in Judaism. Because the theory and theology don't change based on how many people believe it.

That is why it is theory and theology... not practice. That's the difference.

Does that help to explain it?

dybmh · Dec 9, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I saw "some" of what he said on this thread, that's all. I do not think I can have an opinion unless I keep up on the thread and even then I do not like coming in between other people since I think we all need to deal directly with each other and try to work things out. But if we can't we can't, and I have learned to just move on. It took years but I have learned when to call it quits with some people. If they are convinced they are right let them believe that, it does not affect me because I know they are wrong. This is about my religion, a religion they really know nothing about, so let them arrogantly assume they know more than me, a Baha'i of 49 years. They only make fools out of themselves but lucky for them there is nobody to see them on my forum right now because it is a virtual ghost town.

Super good advice. I hope to get to there someday.

Aupmanyav · Dec 10, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Baha'u'llah came down hard on the religious leaders of all the older religions for rejecting Him. I blame the religious leaders for leading people astray, not the followers. The leaders were in power and they were responsible.

What mighty ego! A mouse trying to frighten a pack of lions. What an over-reach! And you say Bahais respect all other religions! Why do you lie? Very funny. Bahais seem to be very funny people, all tangled up in knots.

Is progressive revelation believable?

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