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Creationists -- Please answer David Attenborough for me...
- Thread starter Evangelicalhumanist
- Start date
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
Please allow me to conjecture life's genetic coding might have been invented by extraterrestrial intelligence who seeded life on Earth where significant enough gene pool changes occur within species changing over the course of many generations resulting in organisms having genetic traits different enough from their distant ancestors; so that there'd be no possible sexual reproduction occurring between somebody who were to have distant ancestral genetic traits with anybody living in the current population. There are natural mechanisms that make evolution work by way of favorable genetic traits due to mutations more likely getting passed along to the next generation, natural selection, genetic drifting, or gene flow.
Directed panspermia and evolution are not mutually exclusive of each other.
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Attenborough uses the worm, i use childhood leukemia for essentially the same argument. There are so many more inconsistencies with the god done it with hod magic claim that the only way creationists can possibly stick like glue to bronze age superstition is by ignoring the facts and that is deliberate ignorance.
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
Parasitic worms causing blindness or cancer killing children are both pretty hideous phenomenon, which happen for natural reasons beyond the control of present day human medical technology.
Yes but we are talking of god magic, would an omni everything and compassionate god inflict such horrors on his prize creation?
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
Besides parasitic infections causing blindness, there are evidently parasitic infections adversely affecting a person's state of mental health.
Toxoplasmosis Parasite May Trigger Schizophrenia And Bipolar Disorders
Is Toxoplasma gondii a Trigger of Bipolar Disorder?
Del Grande C1, Galli L2, Schiavi E3, Dell'Osso L4, Bruschi F
Pathogens. 2017 Jan 10;6(1). pii: E3. doi: 10.3390/pathogens6010003.
US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health
Is Toxoplasma gondii a Trigger of Bipolar Disorder? - PubMed - NCBI
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Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
Based on malicious events happening beyond anybody's control, a highly benevolent, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient super natural being does not apparently exist.
I agree with almost every word you said, i would have skipped the word "apparently"
First of all, Attenborough begins with a false premise....the Genesis account doesn’t say that God created every species. God created “kinds,” which apparently corresponds to the family taxon level. I say apparently, because the text isn’t specific.
(For example: There were no dachshunds. Or Alaskan Malamutes.)
If you read Isaiah 11 6-9, and meditate on it (like noticing the future tense it’s written in), you’ll see that lifeforms, as we have currently, are not displaying behaviors and living according to God’s original purpose. It all changed — including Jehovah removing His blessing — when His son Adam chose rebellion, and raised the issue of sovereignty. Genesis 3.
Once this issue is settled, then Isaiah 11; Ephesians 1:10; Revelation 21:3-4; Psalms 37 9-11, 29; & other Scriptures, will be fulfilled under Jesus’ rulership.
(For example: There were no dachshunds. Or Alaskan Malamutes.)
If you read Isaiah 11 6-9, and meditate on it (like noticing the future tense it’s written in), you’ll see that lifeforms, as we have currently, are not displaying behaviors and living according to God’s original purpose. It all changed — including Jehovah removing His blessing — when His son Adam chose rebellion, and raised the issue of sovereignty. Genesis 3.
Once this issue is settled, then Isaiah 11; Ephesians 1:10; Revelation 21:3-4; Psalms 37 9-11, 29; & other Scriptures, will be fulfilled under Jesus’ rulership.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Right, right....
So eyeball eating worms exist because a mythical human ancestor that never actually existed, ate a magic fruit in a magic garden. Therefor, it's perfectly ok and ethical for eyeball eating worms to exist 6000 years after the mythical event.
Let's just forget/ignore for a second that an omnipotent, all-knowing god would know in advance that some creature he created would eventually evolve in an eyeball eating worm.
Gotta protect the faith, right.
Magic is your word, not mine.
After Eden, things have developed gradually, without Jehovah ‘s guidance.
Hey, this is a great planet, designed for our life to flourish. But for several thousand years, it hasn’t experienced Jehovah’s full protection.
Do you understand how Genesis 3 gives us the reason for Jehovah’s absence — for the most part — from human affairs? Except from those who want His rule, His Kingdom, to “come.” Matthew 6:9-10.
Your understanding of Jehovah’s omnipotence, is different from mine. You never read about Jonah and the Assyrian Ninevites?
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
The remains of Australian aborigines have evidently been in Australia for over a thousand consecutive generations Aboriginal Australians - Wikipedia that does indeed debunk the Biblical claim there were only 77 generations between the time of Jesus Christ's generation and Adam whom the Bible claims was the "first man". Reference: (Luke 3:23-38) and Eve whom the Bible claims as the mother of all the living. (Genesis 3:20)
The Bible is wrong when in fact there were many generations of people prior to the 76th generation before Christ that allegedly was spawned by Adam and Eve.
"In a 2011 genetic study by Ramussen et al., researchers took a DNA sample from an early 20th century lock of an Aboriginal person's hair with low European admixture. They found that the ancestors of the Aboriginal population split off from the Eurasian population between 62,000 and 75,000 BP, whereas the European and Asian populations split only 25,000 to 38,000 years BP, indicating an extended period of Aboriginal genetic isolation. These Aboriginal ancestors migrated into South Asia and then into Australia, where they stayed, with the result that, outside of Africa, the Aboriginal peoples have occupied the same territory continuously longer than any other human populations. These findings suggest that modern Aboriginal peoples are the direct descendants of migrants who left Africa up to 75,000 years ago. This finding is compatible with earlier archaeological finds of human remains near Lake Mungo that date to approximately 40,000 years ago."
Reference: Rasmussen, Morten; Guo, Xiaosen; et al. (7 October 2011). "An Aboriginal Australia Genome Reveals Separate Human Dispersals into Asia"(PDF). Science. American Association for the Advancement of Science. 334(6052): 94–98. doi:10.1126/science.1211177. PMC 3991479. PMID21940856. Retrieved 22 November 2016.
Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of much less than ca. 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than probably ca. 10,000 individuals.
Reference: (Li, Heng and Durbin, Richard ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences" Nature International Weekly Journal of Science 28 July 2001 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v47...10231.html
If there were the most severe population bottle-necking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest among each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.
DNA segments (Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. "However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest".
Reference: ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?" 5 April 2001 http://biologos.org/blog/does-genetics-p...mal-couple
Coalescent theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphism and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. "The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of ca, 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years."
Reference: ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke, Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M. ) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium" Genome Research 17 April 2007 Ancestral Population Genomics: The Coalescent Hidden Markov Model Approach
Indeed, there is ample genetic evidence that the Biblical Adam and Eve never existed.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You don't have to say the word to refer to it though.
Are you saying your God doomed all mankind and all other living things because a dude ate a common apple from a common tree in a common garden?
You mean... his "magic".
I understand how it's a story in a book, with no grounding in reality at all and how your superstitious interpretation of it is in direct contradiction with just about all evidence from the natural sciences.
I've read the bible a long time ago and have no interest in reading it again.
.....lets dig a little deeper.....
The worm that David Attenborough alluded to is "Onchocerca" and is the cause of River Blindness. It is probably an adapted species as he suggests, which infects only the eyes of humans and some primates.
For those of us who are believers in an Intelligent Creator, it seems obvious that this lifeform is not a direct creation of God. Not every creature is, so Mr Attenborough is mistaken there, as are many YEC's. No intelligent designer creates things that destroy his own handiwork. In his original creation setting, no creature was intended to harm another....and there was no fear of man.
The only creatures who ate flesh were the carrion birds, animals and insects...nature's clean-up crew.
How and why do creatures adapt?...a change in environment is often the trigger. When humans were evicted from their paradise home, their environment changed dramatically. Humans themselves became victims of genetic changes as a result of the penalty imposed for their defection. Both may have contributed to the way creatures adapted for their own survival.
In that setting, many species may have been created simply as an adaptive response to changed conditions. Humans chose this route and its consequences.....God did not interfere.
Couple that with the fact that poor countries like Africa and Latin-America, (whose standards of living were not conducive to health and well-being,) were the most affected areas and there we have another reason for widespread infection. Some cultural practices can also be to blame, as we saw in the spread of Ebola.
Malnourishment lowers immunity and low standards of hygiene would also be a contributing factor to the spread of many diseases.
The fact is, that when measures are taken to eliminate the black fly and interfere with its breeding cycle were implemented in South America, many nations have eradicated the problem. Africa, as the continent of the poorest people on earth, are still targets of this disease because they cannot afford the measures to help control the spread of it.
So don't blame God for these problems...blame humans for providing the conditions that keep these diseases from being controlled.
Wealthy pharma companies could help to provide the medicine necessary at no cost...because they can afford to....but they won't.
Wealthy nations could help supply better nourishment for the poor in these nations...but they don't do enough. They actually waste what would feed all those people.
How much governmental spending is also wasted on military weapons and politicians' political campaigns and lifestyles?
Sponsorship programs where a child is given the means to gain an education and to live a better life, do not filter down to all the deserving children affected by poverty and disease. Aid agencies are overwhelmed by the problems.
Humans have caused these problems way more than God ever did. They caused the changed environments that caused these creatures to adapt for their own survival.
The Creator has stepped back to show humans how inept they really are without him. But soon he promises to step in and repair the damage, to eradicate sickness and suffering and eliminate from existence all who think man's ways are superior.
Put the blame where it really lies......that is how I would answer David Attenborough.....
From the “nature.com” link:
“The history of human population size is important for understanding human evolution. Various studies1,2,3,4,5 have found evidence for a founder event (bottleneck) in East Asian and European populations, associated with the human dispersal out-of-Africa event around 60 thousand years (kyr) ago. However, these studies have had to assume simplified demographic models with few parameters, and they do not provide a precise date for the start and stop times of the bottleneck. Here, with fewer assumptions on population size changes, we present a more detailed history of human population sizes between approximately ten thousand and a million years ago, using the pairwise sequentially Markovian coalescent model applied to the complete diploid genome sequences of a Chinese male (YH)6, a Korean male (SJK)7, three European individuals (J. C. Venter8, NA12891 and NA12878 (ref. 9)) and two Yoruba males (NA18507 (ref. 10) and NA19239). We infer that European and Chinese populations had very similar population-size histories before 10–20 kyr ago. Both populations experienced a severe bottleneck 10–60 kyr ago, whereas African populations experienced a milder bottleneck from which they recovered earlier. All three populations have an elevated effective population size between 60 and 250 kyr ago, possibly due to population substructure11. We also infer that the differentiation of genetically modern humans may have started as early as 100–120 kyr ago12, but considerable genetic exchanges may still have occurred until 20–40 kyr ago.”
So, they start off with an a priori view that humans evolved, and base their inferences, i.e., guesses, to fit it.
How does MtEve fit into this?
And how did these populations then migrate?
Interesting how closely-related populations become estranged from each other, rather quickly! (African tribes, and Native Americans, are solid evidence of this.) Although I believe that there is a lot of truth in these cultures’ myths, I know much is based on faulty assumptions....these “1000’s of generations” are simply folklore.
I'm going to address this single quote in your long post, in the hopes that other members will contribute thoughts of their own.
Do you see what you said? "Humans chose this route and its consequences...God did not interfere."
This is the quintessence of ignorance about what evolution is and how it works. There is no "choice" involved -- even on the part of God, to interfere or not.
God defenders and Trump defenders appear to be of the same ilk: dodge, deflect, ignore -- do anything but acknowledge the obvious reality.
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
The below map well-demonstrates the paths and timelines of human migrations and mitochondrial haplogroups.
These alleged routes could very well be accurate, it seems so. But I believe the assumed timelines are way off.The below map well-demonstrates the paths and timelines of human migrations and mitochondrial haplogroups.
Look how little time it took for Europeans to conquer and inhabit the North American continent, less than 600 years!
Australia, even more quickly.
Genetics is a field in its infancy....there’s much more to learn.
Here’s a thought related to genetics. There’s been much genetic material found in cells of organisms, labeled “junk DNA”, because it appeared this material has no use...a product of changes caused by evolution.
Some biologists who promote ID, though, predicted that it isn’t useless, or excess “junk”. These predictions are proving accurate, that they are serving some purpose in regulatory processes, switching on or off certain genes, once a goal is achieved!
No doubt, more needs to be learned.
IMO, as more complexity is discovered, deferring to undirected, naturalistic causes in creating new body plans, will lose its hold on reasoning scientists. Axe, Behe, Meyer, Minnich and others have already shed these assumptions.
