• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is progressive revelation believable?

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I was familiar with the fact that there were, during the Western Schism, two popes: the Antipope John XXIII and the rightful Pope Gregory VI. But I was not aware of the two pope tale that I think you're referring to until Ecco Felino posted


which scared the bejeezus out of me.

That's new to me, although I knew Rudyard Kipling's tale of "The Man Who Would Be King" which isn't the same thing you're talking about. The two-pope, two-king theories encourage the current conspiracy theory held by Trump supporters regarding "the Deep State". That stuff is beyond my pay grade. I'm currently just a really low-grade dirt pile moving through Space and Time. That, of course, could change at any time.

If indeed I ever was selected, I assure you that I was not secretly selected through any dark protocols here on earth, nor was I selected because of any merit that I myself have earned. My self-styled label as "the 37th tzaddik" was my way of introducing the notion that I have been the beneficiary of the faith of others, whose shoes I was not worthy to kneel and remove. I myself am not one of the Lamed Vav but I have met some, and I am here to declare that they exist in every generation, ... and to give the Baha'i a hard time.
:) Sorry, I didn't mean to scare you. What an interesting video. :p I wonder why Jeb Bush (The Vatican's choice) didn't make it instead of Trump? Anyway.
I had no idea that the Jesuits invented communism either. That is just...brain food isn't? I think I may save this video for when I need cheering up. I appreciate your pointing this out. This is guy is very believable, too. He's amazing and has a great suit. He knows what he's talking about.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
What I am focusing on right now is the difference between the intended message ( One God ) with what I am reading in this thread. I feel like this intention is pure and true. Because of this, my challenge is to better understand what has been said.
I don’t doubt the sincerity of belief of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Baha’is who may well hold contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs about the nature of reality. The first approach in any Interfaith dialogue is to simply hear what the other has to say without criticising or judging. That can be much harder than it first seems.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
  1. :) Sorry, I didn't mean to scare you.
  2. What an interesting video. :p
  3. I wonder why Jeb Bush (The Vatican's choice) didn't make it instead of Trump?
  4. I had no idea that the Jesuits invented communism either. That is just...brain food isn't?
  5. I think I may save this video for when I need cheering up.
  6. I appreciate your pointing this out.
  7. This is guy is very believable, too. He's amazing and has a great suit. He knows what he's talking about.
RE:
  1. YOU didn't scare me. Ecco's video did. You just reminded me of it and my being scared itless.
  2. Indeed it was.
  3. Now there's a mystery that merits investigation, IMO.
  4. Nor did I, ... if they did. The only Jesuits that I've met, and I've met a good many of them, seemed like trustworthy Christians.
  5. Well, that's an interesting alternative response to the video.
  6. You're welcome. Glad I could cheer you up.
  7. Leo sure seemed convincing. What troubled me was that the American, "Infowars Alex Jones", was with Leo on his guided tour.
  8. P.S. For even more thrills, be sure to go to Leo's Channel: LeoLyonZagamiChannel
 
Last edited:

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.

Edit: I've noticed that some people is addressing the "truth is not absolute but relative" statement that I made. So let me put it this way: some truths are not absolute and some truths are relative. It depends what truths are being talked about.
I do believe that God continues to call Prophets today and that revelation continues, but I do not believe that Islam or the Ba'hai faiths have divine origins.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I don’t doubt the sincerity of belief of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Baha’is who may well hold contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs about the nature of reality. The first approach in any Interfaith dialogue is to simply hear what the other has to say without criticising or judging. That can be much harder than it first seems.
At risk of re-opening debate, I would like to respectfully say:

There is a simple solution to the difference of opinion between @shunyadragon and myself regarding whether or not God is central in Judaism.

He says "No, God is not central in Judaism."

I say "Yes, God is central in Judaism"

Ya know... He and I both have distinctly different academic knowledge on the subject. I do not dispute his knowledge about God from a Baha'i perspective in spite of his reticence to acknowledge my knowledge about Jewish Theology and Practice.

The simple answer is: We're both correct. The only difference is:

His God is not the God of Abraham.

Thoughts?

@shunyadragon, thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
the apostles of Christ were clear in consciously abrogating Mosaic law.

Well said, I concur with that assessment. I agree - we are discussing weighty matters, but I'm enjoying the very civil and friendly, yet thorough, discussion. You're such a gentlemanly and courteous debate partner! (BTW HAPPY BIRTHDAY! :beercheers:)

My understanding, based upon Baha'i texts I've read from the central figures of the Faith (i.e. Baha'u'llah in the Iqan, Abdu'l-Bahá in SAQ, Shoghi Effendi), is that they largely understood the Christian religion to be 'solely spiritual' as opposed to the temporal / civil religious law that the Torah, Qur'an/Hadith and Aqdas have, respectively, promulgated for the religions of Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

There is actually a letter (circa 1899) by Abdu'l-Baha which is very relevant to this topic. Its entitled: "On the House of Justice and Baha’i Jurisprudence” and an official translation of it was approved for incorporation in a document of the Universal House of Justice dated April 18th 2001:


Takfir, declaration of unbelief


An authorized translation of the excerpt which is central to your concern is presented below, together with the succeeding passages:

Ye have asked concerning the wisdom of referring certain important laws to the House of Justice. Before all else, this divine cycle is purely heavenly and spiritual, and concerned with the matters of the soul. [...] The Christian dispensation was in like manner solely spiritual. Thus, in the entire New Testament, there appeareth naught but the prohibition of divorce and the allusion to the abrogation of the Sabbath. Even as He saith, 'the Son of man came not to judge the world but to save the world'. [...] For the head cornerstone of the religion of God consisteth in refining the characters, reforming the manners, and improving the attributes of men [...]

All other ordinances are subservient to faith, certitude, confidence, and understanding. This blessed cycle being however the greatest of all divine cycles, it embraceth all spiritual and temporal matters, and is endowed with the utmost power and sovereignty. Therefore, those matters of major importance which constitute the foundation of the Law of God are explicitly recorded in the Text, but subsidiary laws are left to the House of Justice. [...]

The Supreme House of Justice will take decisions and establish laws through the inspiration and confirmation of the Holy Spirit [...]

Briefly, this is the wisdom of referring the laws of society to the House of Justice. In the religion of Islam, similarly, not every ordinance was explicitly revealed; nay not a tenth part of a tenth part was included in the Text; although all matters of major importance were specifically referred to, there were undoubtedly thousands of laws which were unspecified. These were devised by the divines of a later age according to the laws of Islamic jurisprudence [...] All these were enforced. Today this process of deduction is the right of the body of the House of Justice [...]
The statement of 'Abdu'l-Bahá that the Bahá'í Faith "embraceth all spiritual and temporal matters" is consonant with that of the House of Justice about the future Bahá'í World Commonwealth.


The scholar Juan Cole commented as follows in an article:


Letter of `Abdu'l-Baha on Baha'i Jurisprudence - Commentary


Abdu'l-Baha began by comparing the Baha'i faith to early Christianity in its focus on spirituality rather than law. He is aware, of course, that there are more than two religious laws in the Baha'i scriptures, unlike the New Testament. That is, a Baha'i shari`ah or code of revealed law does exist [...]

Moreover, these laws deal with personal status matters (marriage, inheritance, etc.) as well as with some matters of what we would call criminal law, In this, Baha'i law resembles that of the Qur'an.


So the upshot of this analysis is that Abdu'l-Baha apparently recognised that (in contrast to Judaism and Islam), Christianity was a religion of 'spirituality rather than law' which proposed no code of revealed law for the state or society. He opined that the Baha'i Faith was closer to Christianity in the spirit being dominant over the letter of the law (than Islam or Judaism) but that, unlike Christianity, the Baha'i Faith "embraceth temporal matters" as well as just spiritual and from that respect it is more like Islam, in that 'laws for society' are set out both in the Kitab-i-Aqdas by Baha'u'llah and can be legislated on by the Universal House of Justice in the future.

His remarks about Christianity cohere with the longstanding doctrine of orthodox Christianity (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) i.e.


"The law and the prophets were in effect until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is proclaimed" (Luke 16:16)​

"[Jesus] has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15-17)

"Now then, at the very beginning of your questions, you properly and laudably state that your king seeks the Christian law...One should know that the law of the Christians consists in faith and good works [...] This is the Christian law, and whoever keeps this law properly, shall be saved. [...]

Far be it from your minds that you, who have acknowledged so pious a God and Lord, now judge so harshly [...] For the blessed apostle Paul did not impose the death penalty on anyone [...]

We consider what you asked about pants (femoralia) to be irrelevant; for we do not wish the exterior style of your clothing to be changed, but rather the behavior of the inner man within you, nor do we desire to know what you are wearing but rather how you are progressing in faith and good works
" ((The Responses of Pope Nicholas I to the Questions of the Bulgars A.D. 866)


"The judicial precepts [of the Old Testament] did not bind for ever, but were annulled by the coming of Christ [...] In the ministry of the New Law, no punishment of death or of bodily maiming is appointed...As regards Peter, he did not put Ananias and Saphira to death...The Priests or Levites of the Old Testament were the ministers of the Old Law, which appointed corporal penalties." (St. Thomas Aquinas, SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The judicial precepts (Prima Secundae Partis, Q. 104), 1265–1274)

“ Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience to the Commandments which are called Moral ”
(Article VII of the Thirty Nine Articles of the Church of England (1571))

The moral law doth for ever bind all, the ceremonial laws are now abrogated under the New Testament; and the sundry judicial (or civil) laws of Israel expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now" (chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (1643-46))

"In history, systems of law have almost always been based on religion: decisions regarding what was to be lawful among men were taken with reference to the divinity. Unlike other great religions, Christianity has never proposed a revealed law to the State and to society, that is to say a juridical order derived from revelation. Instead, it has pointed to nature and reason as the true sources of law" (Pope Benedict XVI Visit to the Federal Parliament in the Reichstag Building (Berlin, 22 September 2011))

As you can see from preceding, St. Thomas Aquinas (medieval Catholic theologian) and the Protestant Reformers believed that the 'moral law' of the Old Covenant was eternal (inasmuch as adultery is still wrong, exploitation of the poor is still wrong, murder is still wrong etc.) because it derived from natural law but that the 'ceremonial' and 'ritualistic' laws and the 'judicial' punishments were annulled and declared void, with Jesus adding nothing new in this respect to replace them (i.e. no new revealed civil & criminal law for the state). In addition, they believed as St. Thomas noted that the New Testament was also greater than the Old in that it improved upon it morally, as St. Thomas writes in the Summa: "the New Law is compared to the Old as the perfect to the imperfect. And accordingly the New Law fulfils the Old by supplying that which was lacking in the Old Law."

Christians, in interpreting the Old Covenant, thus make the same distinction that Baha'is make between: "the two distinct aspects or functions" of religion:


"One the essential or fundamental, the other the material or accidental. The first aspect of the revealed religion of God is that which concerns the ethical development and spiritual progress of mankind, the awakening of potential human susceptibilities and the descent of divine bestowals. These ordinances are changeless, essential, eternal. The second function of the divine religion deals with material conditions, the laws of human intercourse and social regulation. These are subject to change [...]

For instance, in the day of Moses ten commandments in regard to murder were revealed by Him. These commandments were in accordance with the requirements of that day and time. Other laws embodying drastic punishments were enacted by Moses—an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth....But in the time of Jesus Christ this kind of law was not expedient; therefore, Christ abrogated and superseded the commands of Moses."

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.470)​


Christianity (and this is its distinction from Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith) is entirely concerned with the "essential or fundamental, the changeless and eternal". It has virtually nothing of the second function: "the material conditions, laws of human intercourse", the legal side of things. As Abdu'l-Baha notes: "the very heart of the religion of Christ consists in the greatest human virtues" (Some Answered Questions).

For as St. Paul wrote, Christians are: "ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Corinthians 3:4-6).

The Baha'i Faith appears to support this understanding of Christ's doctrine, which is distinct in focus from the Abrahamic dispensations before and after it in being "solely spiritual" without any temporal lawmaking for society.
 
Last edited:

sealchan

Well-Known Member
In all this I would think it would be important to read a little of Joseph Campbell and other anthropologists to see how religion evolves. And, as it evolves, some religions go extinct. While others adapt to change and morph into something else. But is it an Almighty God bringing this about? I would very much question how a one God had anything to do with some of the ancient religions. They very much seem like they were made up by the people and culture in those times and are not seen as being real, but are seen as being mythology.

Made up but in the context of a similar physical brain, mental psyche which has objective, abstract qualities that are expressed dynamically given the culture as in a complex, adaptive system.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I don’t doubt the sincerity of belief of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Baha’is who may well hold contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs about the nature of reality. The first approach in any Interfaith dialogue is to simply hear what the other has to say without criticising or judging. That can be much harder than it first seems.

Happy birthday dear friend!!
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
At risk of re-opening debate, I would like to respectfully say:

There is a simple solution to the difference of opinion between @shunyadragon and myself regarding whether or not God is central in Judaism.

He says "No, God is not central in Judaism."

I say "Yes, God is central in Judaism"

This an over simplification and misrepresents my view.

His God is not the God of Abraham.

Thoughts?

@shunyadragon, thoughts?

Interesting statement. Do you believe the God of Abraham is exclusively the God of Judaism?

I believe the God of Abraham is the God of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i Faith, and actually all the religions of the world called by different names. The God of Abraham is the God of Creation and all of humanity. This is the teaching of Progressive Revelation.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This an over simplification and misrepresents my view.
You said it, and it's a direct quote. We argued about it back and forth... so.. please feel free to clarify.

I would honestly appreciate it. It should not be surprising that my opinion of the Baha'i faith has been compromised because of what you said, and apparently what your prophet says about Judaism.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Interesting statement. Do you believe the God of Abraham is exclusively the God of Judaism.

I believe the God of Abraham is the God of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i Faith, and actually all the religions of the world called by different names. The God of Abraham is the God of Creation and all of humanity.
Of course you do. But guess what, that's not Judaism.

So, we're talking about a different God altogether. Your God is Baha'ullah. And if there is an attempt to equate the two... you have not provided any evidence outside of the **unsubstantiated** claims.

Besides... it's been shown that you don't even know what Judaism is. So really all you have are the words of your prophet.

And guess what? That's not very sciency. It's not evidence based. It's not different than creationists and flat earthers.

Your scripture says it, you believe it. That's why my evidence is not valued and your assessment of your own credibility has been so inflated. Your prophet said it; you believe it. Fine.

It seems to me, in this thread, You are operating as a believer. It's really fine now that I understand it.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive.

/QUOTE]
Progressiveness in that context, would be in stark contrast to stability and is more related to falsehood or untrusworthiness.

The word truth in the OT comes from the Heb 'emeth' it means firm, trustworthy, stable, faithful, loyal, true and established as fact.

"God is not a man, that he should lie,...hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and he will not make it good? (Nu 23:19)
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I have to say, for the record, nothing occurs in a vaccuum. If anyone at any time wants to criticize the actions of Jews... please do. That includes The Baha'ullah, @Trailblazer, @shunyadragon, @ Anyone.

Jews are people too. I have said it at least once, maybe more... the story told in the Tanach is of a flawed people who are holy in spite of their flaws.

That's my story; i'm sticking to it. And..

Most important. I can support that claim with oodles and oodles of evidence.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This an over simplification and misrepresents my view.
If you want to toss around "rule violations" casually... dude... You are misrepresenting an entire religion. But so does Baha'ullah... so... I guess it's part of your religious freedom, artist license... whatever.

You should just apologize and never make any comments about Judaism again. Ask respectful questions... sure.

IMO.
 
Last edited:

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in.

And what variable do you think that would hinge on. Technically, what would change 'ages' so that a signal would be given for new divine information to be presented? Isn't 'human progress' through the expansion of ideas and technology actually relative to time and divine wills? Or would all these things, which often appear as secular advents that are often resisted by religion, be the things that literally 'change ages' and signal a need for new divine information. You seem to trying to give a unified telos to two things that often have repelled each other throughout history.
 

od19g6

Member

Progressiveness in that context said:
How is it related to falsehood or
untrusworthiness?

[QUOTE="God is not a man, that he should lie,...hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and he will not make it good? (Nu 23:19)

God is not a man at all.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.

Edit: I've noticed that some people is addressing the "truth is not absolute but relative" statement that I made. So let me put it this way: some truths are not absolute and some truths are relative. It depends what truths are being talked about.

Man's understanding of the universe and his relationship to it is progressive, therefore the Gods and religions created by man are also progressive.

Ancient man who had a more primitive understanding of the universe developed primitive concepts of God. As man's understanding of the universe increases the beliefs he creates will change to keep pace. Eventually I suspect there will be no separation between God and the universe. Between science and religion.

The knowledge provided by science eventually becomes common and makes its way into our beliefs.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@adrian009

A consideration in light of my last post, which I ask in all sincerity (and out of a genuine desire to understand how Baha'is reconcile this matter):

The reason why God would - in the Baha'i schema of divine history - deign to spell out a religious law for the 'temporal' order in the Jewish dispensation and in the post-Christian dispensations of Islam and Baha'i but not for the epoch of Jesus, is a question that naturally arises in my mind at this juncture.

Why do you suppose this would be? Why the apparent 'rupture' with Christianity in the chain of revelational progress?

As I see it, one could viably construe Judaism as succeeding to Islam which then succeeds to the Baha'i revelation. You could make a decent argument for a 'seamless garment' or hemeneutic of continuity out of that 'chain'.

But Christianity is just....well, a bit "weird" in that equation and order. It doesn't seem to logically cohere with the others in terms of 'progress', as it dispenses with the 'letter' (revealed law for society) entirely; only for it to be reinstated in Islam (in a manner not that different from Judaism) and then in a more refined / enlightened form in Baha'i law.

You made a good point earlier Adrian, about seeing Judaism progressing to Christianity, and Islam progressing to the Baha'i Faith. There is some compelling synergy in that comparison - a 'parallel' evolution. And yet the Baha'i elucidations of this doctrine in the core texts seem to presuppose a "linear" framework, as opposed to parallelism between Baha'i/Christianity.

If Islam succeeds Christianity, the picture is much less plausibly 'linear' to me - as we have judgement and law in Judaism, tossed aside in Christianity only for it to be brought back again in Islam (in a form substantially similar in some respects to Judaism - i.e. kosher/halal, purity laws, sekila (punishment for stoning in Judaism), whipping and other hudud penal laws in Islam etc. with just some diminutions in severity here and there).

Why would God decide to do that with Christianity but not the later revelations?

For example, as St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope St. Nicholas I noted in my quotations above from the Middle Ages, how the New Testament abolished the Judaic penal law in Deuteronomy (i.e. as an example, stoning to death a rebellious son: "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city...Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear." (Deut. 21:18-21)).

But even though Jesus and Paul abolished the Mosaic capital punishments, they did not institute in its place a new divine law for society with new capital punishments i.e.


"In the ministry of the New Law, no punishment of death or of bodily maiming is appointed...As regards Peter, he did not put Ananias and Saphira to death...The Priests or Levites of the Old Testament were the ministers of the Old Law, which appointed corporal penalties."

(St. Thomas Aquinas, SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The judicial precepts (Prima Secundae Partis, Q. 104), 1265–1274)​


The Responses of Pope Nicholas I to the Questions of the Bulgars A.D. 866


"You claim that it is part of the custom of your country that guards always stand on the alert between your country and the boundaries of others; and if a slave or freeman [manages to] flee somehow through this watch, the guards are killed without hesitation because of this. Now then, you are asking us, what we think about this practice...

Far be it from your minds that you, who have acknowledged so pious a God and Lord, now judge so harshly
, especially since it is more fitting that, just as hitherto you put people to death with ease, so from now on you should lead those whom you can not to death but to life. For the blessed apostle Paul, who was initially an abusive persecutor and breathed threats and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord,[cf. Acts 9:1] later sought mercy and, converted by a divine revelation, did not impose the death penalty on anyone.

Just as Christ led you back from the eternal death in which you were gripped, to eternal life, so you yourself should attempt to save not only the innocent, but also the guilty from the end of death"


For this reason, Christian societies have had to create their own (entirely human-derived) penal systems - largely based off of Roman law, English Common Law, Norman law etc. and in the absence of any New Testament laws the penal systems of Christian countries have thus differed hugely throughout history, because there's nothing scriptural in relation to it - Christians just had to use their reason and conscience to determine what punishment should fit what crime (i.e. as Jesus himself counselled in the NT: ("Judge for yourselves what is right" Luke 12:57).

(continued....)
 
Top