Is progressive revelation believable?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

As we can not meet Baha'u'llah now, we have to rely upon those that met him, we have the recorded history of his life and person.

The records show that from birth they are known not to be like other children. There is not teacher that can teach them. Their power of attraction is inherent. Those stories are available for the Bab and Baha'u'llah - This some for Baha'u'llah - Birth and Childhood of Baha'u'llah - Some for the Bab - Stories about the Bab – Reflections on the Bahai Writings

In April 1890 Professor Edward Granville Browne of Cambridge University (Who was not a Baha'i) met Bahá’u’lláh in four successive interviews. Professor Browne wrote of his first meeting: "The face of Him on Whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one's very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow.… No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain." Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 38-40

The written word speaks for itself. It has the power to transform and it is what mankind needs in the age it is given. Thus if one names a challenge the world faces in this day, an answer will be found in the Writings of Baha'u'llah. This passage explains that concept;

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live".

Thus that is what we can look at and consider, we can decide for our own self if any of that has any merit.

Regards Tony

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Thanks.

This is what I was trying to explain to Left Coast.

dybmh said:

That ^^ is Judaism. That's what a religion is, dude. It's a sympathetic apologetic silver lined rose colored understanding of the text, history, and customs.

Do you expect me to believe that any Baha'i does not have an "idealized" view of their own religion? Get real.

You want to side-step the fact that you are ignorant of Judaism... Noted. Dude. Just stop replying and stop embarrassing yourself, OK?

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Failure to respond to my posts.

shunyadragon said:

Failure to respond to my posts.

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BS.

I did.

But, now we have a larger problem. Before I respond to anything... you need to convince me that my words will be valued and not completely discarded.

I have a ton of knowledge and experience in this area that you don't have. Admit that first, restate your position, restate your evidence ( briefly if you wish ). Then I will do my best to regroup and restrain my frustration at the apparent arrogance in your previous posts.

@shunyadragon ,

Which siddur ( prayer book ) does the Reform Movement use? How many times is God mentioned in that prayer book? do you know?

Have you ever been to a Reform synagogue? If so how many times? What about baby namings? Bar - Bat Mitzvahs? All these things happen in Reform Judaism... have you ever attended any of these important life cycle events which are the "Focus" and are "Central" to Reform Judaism?

Have you?

Do you know the ritual that is performed? Do you know the words that are said? Anything? Anything at all.

What about a memorial service? Reform Judaism does a ton of those? Have you ever been to one? I have... A lot.

Guess what's common about all those things which are "Central" to Reform Judaism... God!

It's deeply woven into the fabric of these "Life Cycle" events.

OK...

Do you want more?

Have you bothered to look up the tenants of Reform Judaism? I mean... they're the least observant and one of the largest Movements in Judaism? hmmmmm? Have you...

Do you want to bet that God is on the list?

Here ya go... educate yourself....

What is Reform Judaism?

God is central.. .You can't see it... who cares about your opinion at this point...

dybmh said:

@shunyadragon ,

Which siddur ( prayer book ) does the Reform Movement use? How many times is God mentioned in that prayer book? do you know?

Have you ever been to a Reform synagogue? If so how many times? What about baby namings? Bar - Bat Mitzvahs? All these things happen in Reform Judaism... have you ever attended any of these important life cycle events which are the "Focus" and are "Central" to Reform Judaism?

Have you?

Do you know the ritual that is performed? Do you know the words that are said? Anything? Anything at all.

What about a memorial service? Reform Judaism does a ton of those? Have you ever been to one? I have... A lot.

Guess what's common about all those things which are "Central" to Reform Judaism... God!

It's deeply woven into the fabric of these "Life Cycle" events.

OK...

Do you want more?

Have you bothered to look up the tenants of Reform Judaism? I mean... they're the least observant and one of the largest Movements in Judaism? hmmmmm? Have you...

Do you want to bet that God is on the list?

Here ya go... educate yourself....

What is Reform Judaism?

God is central.. .You can't see it... who cares about your opinion at this point...

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Still failed to respond to my point concerning Progressive Revelation and Judaism.

I do not believe you have responded to the problem of Judaism being a highly tribal cultural narrow perspective of God and Revelation without consideration of a universal perspective of the relationship between God and humanity.

shunyadragon said:

Still failed to respond to my point concerning Progressive Revelation and Judaism,

I do not believe you have responded to the problem of Judaism being a highly tribal cultural narrow perspective of God and Revelation without consideration of a universal perspective of the relationship between God and humanity.

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I think it was just too many words in my reply Shunya... I did. I admit that tribalism is a problem. But God is still central. That's my position.

If what you want is for me to admit that the Jewish version of God is exclusive and that it doesn't meet the other religious points of view half way even though they reach out towards Judaism in the spirit of fellowship love and peace... I admit it.

Is it a problem. Yes. I agree it's a problem. Is it the main problem... is it the root cause of global unrest? No. I blame money and greed and an addiction to victim-hood. But that's not Judaism. That's where we disagree on a global basis.

My objection is to the claim that God is not Central in Judaism. And that is the claim you made based on woefully limited data. I am actually surprised that your own scientific critical thinking skills weren't employed in this conversation between you and me.

How do you know? That's critical thinking 101. How do you know about Judaism? How do you know God is not Central? I'll tell you right now... on re-examination... you will have to admit at least to yourself that you were not speaking from a position of strength about God's role in Judaism. Anything other than that is deluded.

dybmh said:

That sounds fun, I think I would have liked GIS.

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It's been fun, but I am getting close to retiring, or at least I should.

CG Didymus said:

And who has done such a thorough research as to know for sure that their choice of a religion is right? People learn more. They find reasons to doubt their new religion. Or, they find that in trying to put it into practice, it doesn't really work for them, and they go on searching.

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That is life and the journey we take in Faith.

Baha'u'llah offered we can come to certainty, but that is and always be a path of self discovery and will always be painful.

While in the Black Pit with a 100lb chain around the neck, Baha'u'llah knew that a day would come when many would embrace His Name and spread the cause, imagine that was happening before it happened, God knows all that is.

"One night, in a dream these exalted words were heard on every side: “Verily, We shall render Thee victorious by Thyself and by Thy Pen. Grieve Thou not for that which hath befallen Thee, neither be Thou afraid, for Thou art in safety. Erelong will God raise up the treasures of the earth—men who will aid Thee through Thyself and through Thy Name, wherewith God hath revived the hearts of such as have recognized Him.”

That was he certainty of Baha'u'llah, that of the Self of God amongst us, all power of life and death and He allowed mankind to walk all over him and instructed the Baha'i to live the same;

"They should conduct themselves in such manner that the earth upon which they tread may never be allowed to address to them such words as these: “I am to be preferred above you."

What builds this certainty? Baha'u'llah offerd, "For witness, how patient I am in bearing the burden which the husbandman layeth upon me. I am the instrument that continually imparteth unto all beings the blessings with which He Who is the Source of all grace hath entrusted me. Notwithstanding the honor conferred upon me, and the unnumbered evidences of my wealth—a wealth that supplieth the needs of all creation—behold the measure of my humility, witness with what absolute submissiveness I allow myself to be trodden beneath the feet of men….”

RegardsTony

dybmh said:

That ^^ is Judaism. That's what a religion is, dude. It's a sympathetic apologetic silver lined rose colored understanding of the text, history, and customs.

Do you expect me to believe that any Baha'i does not have an "idealized" view of their own religion? Get real.

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Of course we have an idealized view of Baha'i and of course religion is a sympathetic apologetic silver lined rose colored understanding of the text, history, and customs.

From my point of view which is logical, God either spoke again through Baha'u'lalh or God did not do that. It all hinges upon that question. If God did speak through Baha'u'llah, then the older religions are wrong for rejecting Him. Their scriptures are still valid because they came from God, but they have rejected God if Baha'u'llah represented God.

If Baha'u'llah did not represent God, then He is a false prophet, either a con-man or a deluded man. That should be the only question in the forefront of peoples' minds, but it isn't because almost all religious people will never consider any religion other than their own. So Baha'u'llah could be who He claimed to be, the Messiah and the return of Christ, and they would never know because they are so sure He isn't, without even investigating His claim.

It has been my experience on this forum that only agnostics and atheists have seriously considered the claims of Baha'u'llah. The reason is so obvious.

dybmh said:

You want to side-step the fact that you are ignorant of Judaism... Noted. Dude. Just stop replying and stop embarrassing yourself, OK?

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Can you fill me in on what you think Judaism is, if it is not as @shunyadragon said, a highly tribal cultural narrow perspective of God and Revelation without consideration of a universal perspective of the relationship between God and humanity? How is Judaism universal? They believe that the Messiah is only for Jews and they believe the Messiah is going to restore the Torah which is the only valid religious scripture, and they believe that when the Messiah comes that everyone will know that Judaism is the one true religion.

In short, Jews believe they are the one true religion. How can that possibly be true unless every other religion is false?

Vinayaka said:

What can you lose?

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My life or my wife?

shunyadragon said:

I do not believe you have responded to the problem of Judaism being a highly tribal cultural narrow perspective of God and Revelation without consideration of a universal perspective of the relationship between God and humanity.

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I wonder how one can read Genesis in the Torah - the creation myth of Adam and Eve, Noah's flood and the Noahide laws, Abraham as the 'father' of many nations with more descendants than the stars in the sky - and form the opinion that Judaism has nothing to say about humanity as a whole.

Pre-exilic Judaism was certainly very tribal (modern scholars have discerned it was also, contrary to common beliefs, henotheistic rather than strictly monotheistic), being the national cult of a small and very persecuted ethnarchy, subdued by large empires like the Assyrians and Babylonians. However, it also had universalist undercurrents - for instance the oracles of the Prophet Micah in the late 8th century BCE, in which Yahweh's temple becomes the symbol of universal peace and conciliation between nations, who "beat their swords into plough-shares" and abandon war (a concept alien to the then contemporary Near East):



Post-exilic Judaism - the form of the ancient Jewish religion that emerged from the return of the exiles from the Babylonian Captivity in the sixth century BCE, and which scholars call 'Second Temple Judaism' - is a far more sophisticated creed, with the universalistic undercurrent becoming stronger.

If Judaism were just 'narrow' in the way you describe, then it is inconceivable that Christianity - the most universalistic cult of antiquity other than Stoicism - could have emerged from it as a sect within Second Temple Judaism.

In fact, the post-exilic faith re-fashioned its tribal god (perhaps under Zoroastrian influence) as the Creator of the cosmos with a plan for all nations in the Messianic Age.

Christianity itself emerged from the universalistic 'camp' within Second Temple Judaism, as a particularly radical (aberrant) manifestation of it.

Terry Sampson said:

My life or my wife?

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If you lose yer life you lose yer wife, no?

Maybe just go to Niagara Falls and for a ride on the Maid of the Mist. Take your wife.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

That is life and the journey we take in Faith.

Baha'u'llah offered we can come to certainty, but that is and always be a path of self discovery and will always be painful.

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Although the path to self discovery is always painful, coming to certainty about Baha'u'llah is not always painful.

Coming to certainty might be difficult for some people, maybe even most people, but not for all people. I know a Baha'i who read one page of Baha'u'llah's Writings and became a Baha'i that day. That was over 50 years ago and he never questioned it since. I know another Baha'i who studied it for over six years before he became a Baha'i, but he has never wavered in his belief since that time.

I think those who drop out of the Baha'i Faith never really knew what they were getting into so when they started to realize that they had to adhere to what Baha'u'llah wrote and to the Covenant they decided to drop out since they thought they knew better than the central figures of the Faith.

I knew that the Baha'i Faith was the truth within two weeks of hearing about it and I became a Baha'i, and that was 49 years ago. Sure I have had issues with God, but I never questioned that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. There is just too much evidence and there is no way it could all be refuted. That is how I look at it. I do not believe it because I want to believe it, because I do not even like religion, I never have. I believe it because I know it is the Truth from God and I would be a complete fool to reject it since that is akin to rejecting God.

This is not because of my personal salvation as much as it is about the salvation of the whole world. I turned a blind eye to the needs of humanity for most of my life, but seven years ago I realized I could not continue living for myself. It would have been much easier to keep living the way I was living, and a lot more fun, but I cannot go back now. I have to admit that I often wish I could turn the clock back, because I have to have a lot of faith in God to believe I will ever be able to dig my way out of the hole I am now in as the result of dedicating all my time to the Cause.

@Trailblazer ,

Thank you so much for taking the time reply.

I'm going to pick out a few pieces of what you wrote, hopefully, to clear up the misunderstanding. I don't think we ( you, me, @shunyadragon ) actually disagree that much. I do think that he was misrepresenting Judaism... from ignorance.

The claim @shunyadragon made is so different what you said. Not only that, but what you are describing makes perfect sense to me... if I look at it from your perspective. I simply wouldn't describe that as progressive. I would describe it as replacement. And that's fine with me. I'll proceed to respond to your post.

Trailblazer said:

From my point of view which is logical, God either spoke again through Baha'u'lalh or God did not do that. It all hinges upon that question. If God did speak through Baha'u'llah, then the older religions are wrong for rejecting Him. Their scriptures are still valid because they came from God, but they have rejected God if Baha'u'llah represented God.

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I can't argue with a single thing you said here. I'm fine with it. Honestly. I just wouldn't call this progressive. Maybe it's progress, but it's progress in the form of wiping the slate clean.

Trailblazer said:

If Baha'u'llah did not represent God, then He is a false prophet, either a con-man or a deluded man. That should be the only question in the forefront of peoples' minds, but it isn't because almost all religious people will never consider any religion other than their own. So Baha'u'llah could be who He claimed to be, the Messiah and the return of Christ, and they would never know because they are so sure He isn't, without even investigating His claim.

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I would never try to convince anyone ever that they're prophet is false for them. never. That's not my style, I find it repugnant, TBH.

Trailblazer said:

It has been my experience on this forum that only agnostics and atheists have seriously considered the claims of Baha'u'llah. The reason is so obvious.

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For me, I just haven't gotten there yet. I feel like I have good working knowledge of the tenets of Baha'i... but I don't have many specifics. Especially quotes from Baha'ullah. When I read the quotes that are here on RF, They just aren't appealing to me. But it's not like I love reading the text of the Torah all by itself. It's the commentary and the spiritual payload which is delivered to me from the text while I;m reading it... if I can remember the commentary as I'm reading it. Other wise I review the commentary at the same time as I am studying the Torah. But I don't read it. Just reading it would not be enjoyable for me. I also have a hard time reading "old English". And it seems like a lot of the Baha'i source tests are translated into old english, that's hard for me. I just don't focus on it very well, and it makes it difficult for me to recall what I have read.

Those are the 2 reasons I'm not "into" the Baha'i text as much as I ma about the others. It's hard to read, and the words don't land and take root in my brain-places , so to speak. But is has nothing to the with the content of the message... unless the message is, Baha'u'llah is porgressivley builidng on the revelation on Mt Sinai. That just doesn't work for me... and I object to it. I think it makes much more sense the way you wrote it. Baha'u'llah replaced the Torah. That makes logical sense to me, too. ( I'm not Baha'i so I don't believe it... but i recognize the logic and beauty in it. )

Trailblazer said:

Can you fill me in on what you think Judaism is, if it is not as @shunyadragon said, a highly tribal cultural narrow perspective of God and Revelation without consideration of a universal perspective of the relationship between God and humanity?

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Well as I said above... this is not the claim he made that I object to. It's very simple. Judaism.. all the major Movements in the religion... Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Ultra-Orthodox... they all focus on God. It is very very simple to show and prove beyond the shadow of a doubt. And as of yet, @shunyadragon has not rolled back his assertion, nor has he apologized for the arrogant disregard for my knowledge and experience about Judaism. I would never, ever try to tell any Baha'i about their religion. Could there be anything more arrogant?

Trailblazer said:

How is Judaism universal?

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It's not.

if anyone says it is... question their motives and knowledge base. Something is amiss if someone believes that Judaism is universal. That's a misrepresentation of Gaussian proportions.

Trailblazer said:

They believe that the Messiah is only for Jews

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They do?

Trailblazer said:

they believe the Messiah is going to restore the Torah which is the only valid religious scripture,

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Correction: The Moshiach is for Jews... I don't see why other people can't have their own Messiah/Messengers/Prophets/Manifestations. It seems perfectly logical to me. Judaism stands alone and is not included in the chain of progressive revelation. That's what makes sense to me, if I accept the Baha'i approach as true... the only adjustment I would make... ( forgive me , I'm not trying to be rude ) is to take Judaism off the table and not to include it as part of the Baha'i faith. That's all. It's the easiest solution. Then all that stuff in the Torah is still true valid and pure.

Is there anything in the Baha'i texts which would prohibit this approach? Does Baha'u'llah ever speak about the Torah directly? If so, what does he say?

Trailblazer said:

nd they believe that when the Messiah comes that everyone will know that Judaism is the one true religion.

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I have never heard this, nor have I seen it reflected in Torah, Tanach, Midrash, or Commentary. I'm not an expert. I don't have all that memorized... but... that would be a big deal. And i think I would know.

Do you know where this idea originated.. is there anything you can provide so that I can chase down this idea? Any hints would be really helpful, if not for this discussion, simply for my own peace of mind.

Trailblazer said:

In short, Jews believe they are the one true religion. How can that possibly be true unless every other religion is false?

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I don't believe that at all. None of my friends do either as far as I know. When I'm talking deep with my other spiritual Jewish friends... we don't talk about other religions at all. No one seems to comment about whether or not they are true false or otherwise. They are other. That means they are ignored, not criticized.

Further, I could probably bring evidence from Jewish sources to make at least a weak argument that there is no "true" religion in Judaism. There is only God and creation and the commandments that were given to the Jews. That's it.

Maybe this is helpful... the word Kosher... all it means is "fit for use by a Jewish person". That's all. No other judgments are being made based on this designation. it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate in purity and holiness for everyone... not at all. And again, if you don't believe me, I can try to put together some evidence to back up what I'm saying. But i would start a new thread on it in the future.

Vouthon said:

I wonder how one can read Genesis in the Torah - the creation myth of Adam and Eve, Noah's flood and the Noahide laws, Abraham as the 'father' of many nations with more descendants than the stars in the sky - and form the opinion that Judaism has nothing to say about humanity as a whole.

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It is easy to eliminate the Torah from the universal perspective, because it is evolved from the perspective of Sumerian, Babylonian, Canaanite, Ugarit and Hebrew mythology and traditions. This has absolutely nothing to say in reference to the religious traditions and mythologies of other religions and cultures of the world that extend far beyond the Abrahamic traditions in time and space. In fact the Torah is a relatively recent compilation datable no earlier then ~900 BCE.

Christianity itself emerged from the universalistic 'camp' within Second Temple Judaism, as a particularly radical manifestation of it.

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This is a claim of Christianity, and other diverse religions and cultures of the world, but in reality it is not universal in context of all the religions and cultures of the world and only relates to the evolved traditions and languagesof the Hebrew origins and Roman/Western Europe.

dybmh said:

What is Reform Judaism?

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That all sounds very good but the same problem persists.
Jews still believe they have the one true religion from God and they do not recognize any religions that came after theirs. Not only have they rejected Baha'u'llah, but they have also rejected Jesus and Muhammad.

Religion is not only about the way people live, it is also about what people believe. Being all-inclusive and tolerant of people who are different from them does not mean they do not believe they superior. Clearly they believe they are superior because they believe they are God's "chosen people" so that all-inclusiveness is just a ruse.

Vinayaka said:

If you lose yer life you lose yer wife, no?

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If I lose my life, my wife did it.
If I lose my wife, I have only RF to keep me company until I leave this mortal plane. I'd rather not lose my wife.

Trailblazer said:

Jews still believe they have the one true religion from God

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I'm sorry... no one I know believes this. Is there anything I can do or say to change your mind?

Trailblazer said:

they do not recognize any religions that came after theirs.

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It's not like that. It's very complicated. I don't know if I will do it any justice trying to explain it.. but I'll try. I only hope that you'll believe me... that's all.

In theory a Jewish person is supposed to go from Strength to Strength. That means a consistent flow from one commandment to the other with essentially no gaps in between. I think what you are observing and identifying as "not recognized" is nothing more than Jewish priorities. And those priorities are to spend 100% of their time immersed in Torah and Commandments. Immersed. 100%. That is what the Torah says from a literal fundamentalist point of view.

But that's not how most people practice Judaism. I need to point that out. Only the ultra Orthodox ( as far as I know ) attempt to continuously go from commandment to commandment with no interruptions.

So what I'm describing is theolgy and theory, but it's rarely put into practice.

It's the same this with "not recognizing" any other religion. It doesn't mean it's false. it means... ( forgive me ) its a waste of time for a Torah Observant Jew. It's not false... it's just not a priority. And with 613 commandments, holidays, Torah to learn, charity to give... etc... it's very busy hectic life for a Torah Observant Jew... except for Shabbos...

So it's not a negative judgement that Jews don't "recognize"... it's just practical. That's how I see it at least. And I'm quite sure that many, if not most Jewish people agree.

Trailblazer said:

Being all-inclusive and tolerant of people who are different from them does not mean they do not believe they superior.

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What you're describing here is an attitude that is becoming extinct via attrition. The young people do not behave this way. OK. It's happening naturally at least in America. It is. But I don't blame you for this observation. it makes me sad.. but that doesn't make it false.

All I can say is that in Judaism does not describe Jews as superior. If they behave that way, I propose its a transgression of a commandment. And is not sanctioned by The Torah. I think I know a few places in the Torah where this ( the idea the Judaism is superior ) may be coming from, but I'll let you ask for more detail if it's helpful.

Trailblazer said:

Clearly they believe they are superior because they believe they are God's "chosen people"

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I have always hated that label. Hated it with a passion.

Chosen for what? To be isolated and given a million different chores to do in order to serve the All-mighty?

Trailblazer said:

so that all-inclusiveness is just a ruse.

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Why do you think that Judaism is all inclusive? Did someone tell you this at some point? Is it coming from Torah, Tanach, or Scripture? Is it my behavior that somehow makes you think that my inclusive approach is reflective of Judaism. It's a way to approach Judaism. But technically... I'm sorry to report,Judaism is not inclusive. Not at all.

So if you can believe me that Judaism isn't inclusive, does that help? Because without this inclusive label, then at least it's not a bait and switch?

od19g6 said:

Oh and just to let you know, you used a lower case "m" for Manifestation...

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The truly meek and humble do not use a capital "M" for "Manifestation" when referring to themselves. If you were meek and humble yourself, you'd know that.

od19g6 said:

4. Where are your followers / believers so that we can actually see the fruits that you bear?

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Many were called, few were chosen. At the moment, I have only Rival and Sun Stone following me. Everybody else wanted money.

od19g6 said:

3. Where is the biography of your life and teachings that we can read, so that we can see did you walk the walk as well as talk the talk?

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The best biographies are written AFTER a person leaves this mortal plane. When you see my name listed among the dead on www.findagrave.com, look for a biography about me in Amazon.com Books, but don't be surprised if you don't find one: I am the 37th tzaddik in this generation, heretofore unknown to the other 36.
For the record, I was born on August 3rd, 1948. Numerologists will tell you that 8 (August) + 3 = 11: the number indicating "Illumination". I work well with others and have a good mind and analytical ability. I often inspire by example, rely on persuasion rather than force, am very aware and sensitive (often emotional). And I tend to be idealistic, more of a dreamer than a doer, and creative.
Numerologists will also point out that 1948 adds up to 1 + 9 + 4 +8 = 22, the number of a "Master Builder". I am capable of handling large scale undertakings and leading in new directions; and my approach to problem-solving is typically unorthodox. Also, I desire to work for the good of all.

dybmh said:

Not only that, but what you are describing makes perfect sense to me... if I look at it from your perspective. I simply wouldn't describe that as progressive. I would describe it as replacement.

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In a sense you are right, it is a replacement because according to Baha’i beliefs every NEW revelation from God abrogates the previous revelation. But I also see it as progressive in the sense that humanity progresses over time so it needs a religion that suits the times we live in.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

dybmh said:

I can't argue with a single thing you said here. I'm fine with it. Honestly. I just wouldn't call this progressive. Maybe it's progress, but it's progress in the form of wiping the slate clean.

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In a sense it does wipe the slate clean every tie God sends a new Messenger. Religion is renewed in every age because the former religions have fulfilled their purposes.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

dybmh said:

I would never try to convince anyone ever that they're prophet is false for them. never. That's not my style, I find it repugnant, TBH.

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I also consider that repugnant and I would never try to convince anyone that their Prophet is false. I would also never try to convince anyone that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be, even though people ask me to convince them. I just point out the only two logical possibilities. If people are interested in pursuing the Baha’i Faith that has to be their own choice. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except Himself.

dybmh said:

For me, I just haven't gotten there yet. I feel like I have good working knowledge of the tenets of Baha'i... but I don't have many specifics. Especially quotes from Baha'ullah. When I read the quotes that are here on RF, They just aren't appealing to me. But it's not like I love reading the text of the Torah all by itself. It's the commentary and the spiritual payload which is delivered to me from the text while I’m reading it... if I can remember the commentary as I'm reading it. Other wise I review the commentary at the same time as I am studying the Torah. But I don't read it. Just reading it would not be enjoyable for me. I also have a hard time reading "old English". And it seems like a lot of the Baha'i source tests are translated into old english, that's hard for me. I just don't focus on it very well, and it makes it difficult for me to recall what I have read.

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I can understand that. Admittedly, I am not very familiar with the Torah or the Bible since my first religion was Baha’i and I have not had much interest in religion, even my own, for most of the years I have been a Baha’i, a long story.

But regarding what I do read in the Torah and the Bible I find most is very difficult for me to understand. No doubt that is because I have no religious background other than Baha’i.

I also had difficulty understanding what Baha’u’llah wrote when I first became a Baha’i, so I read the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, as they are the official interpreters of Baha’u’llah’s Writings. About five years ago I made a sincere effort to understand what Baha’u’llah wrote so I read one of the main books entitled Gleanings over and over again. Now since I quote from it so much in explaining things to others, I have a good grasp of it.

dybmh said:

But is has nothing to the with the content of the message... unless the message is, Baha'u'llah is progressively building on the revelation on Mt Sinai. That just doesn't work for me... and I object to it.

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What do you mean by “progressively building on the revelation on Mt Sinai?” I have no idea what you mean so I cannot respond.

dybmh said:

I think it makes much more sense the way you wrote it. Baha'u'llah replaced the Torah. That makes logical sense to me, too. ( I'm not Baha'i so I don't believe it... but i recognize the logic and beauty in it. )

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That is not exactly true either. Baha’u’llah did not replace the Torah. That is really difficult to explain so I will quote what Shoghi Effendi wrote:

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100

It is the Dispensations of the past that are abrogated, not the religions, because a divinely revealed religion can never be abrogated.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth

(Continued on next post)