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Free will?
- Thread starter Alone
- Start date
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
To obey Matthew 5:48, do the perfect response to an enemy (typically in real life in person) of loving them (!).
That's it. You don't have to be God (be perfect like God).... You have to do the perfect action of loving.
...but you will often need His help! (And Christ gave us a prayer about that in chapter 6....)
Please ask more 'what does this verse mean' if you like, since some older Christians that have read through many times have gradually realized and learned many things of value in these ways.
InChrist
Free4ever
Then place your faith in Christ and believe. Eternal life is a gift. Simply and thankfully receive.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Do you mean one (repeated) specially problematic sin or just any sin?
I'm asking this because it is written "the righteous falls seven times and rises again."
All sin or any sin.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Unless the muslims are right.
Then it's off to the quranic lake of fire with all the other infidels
or if the hindu's are right. Then you'll just be reborn as a cockroach or a malaria bug or something.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
I think we are here to turn to light and fight/turn away from sin. All sin. With the help/cooperation (synergeia) of divine grace of course.
To be just declared sinless because of Jesus without any transformation (metanoia) makes no sense to me. But some things are to be accepted. The first to forgive and be patient with is self. Humility is a grounded view of self. We have limitations. To forgive 7x7x7x and to love our enemies includes ourselves. This doesn't mean we should indulge sin. That's why the righteous one "rises again".
You referred to the passage about perfection. I understand it as an invitation to make a step to the next level of love and righteousness. To outgrow ego and to move toward unconditional love and following God's will in the heart (not guided by the stiff letter but by the Spirit/inspiration of the moment).
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Let me share some wisdom of the desert fathers:
It was said of an old man that for fifty years he had neither eaten bread nor drunk wine readily. He even said, 'I have destroyed fornication, avarice and vain-glory in myself.' Learning that he had said this, Abba Abraham came and said to him, 'Did you really say that?' He answered, 'Yes.' Then Abba Abraham said to him, 'If you were to find a woman lying on your mat when you entered your cell would you think that it is not a woman?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I should struggle against my thoughts so as not to touch her.' Then Abba Abraham said, 'Then you have not destroyed the passion, but it still lives in you although it is controlled. Again, if you are walking along and you see some gold amongst the stones and shells, can your spirit regard them all as of equal value?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I would struggle against my thoughts, so as not to take the gold.' The old man said to him, 'See, avarice still lives in you, though it is controlled.' Abba Abraham continued, 'Suppose you learn that of two brothers one loves you while the other hates you, and speaks evil of you; if they come to see you, will you receive them both with the same love?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I should struggle against my thoughts so as to be as kind towards the one who hates me as towards the one who loves me.' Abba Abraham said to him, 'So then, the passions continue to live; it is simply that they are controlled by the saints.'
It was said of an old man that for fifty years he had neither eaten bread nor drunk wine readily. He even said, 'I have destroyed fornication, avarice and vain-glory in myself.' Learning that he had said this, Abba Abraham came and said to him, 'Did you really say that?' He answered, 'Yes.' Then Abba Abraham said to him, 'If you were to find a woman lying on your mat when you entered your cell would you think that it is not a woman?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I should struggle against my thoughts so as not to touch her.' Then Abba Abraham said, 'Then you have not destroyed the passion, but it still lives in you although it is controlled. Again, if you are walking along and you see some gold amongst the stones and shells, can your spirit regard them all as of equal value?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I would struggle against my thoughts, so as not to take the gold.' The old man said to him, 'See, avarice still lives in you, though it is controlled.' Abba Abraham continued, 'Suppose you learn that of two brothers one loves you while the other hates you, and speaks evil of you; if they come to see you, will you receive them both with the same love?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I should struggle against my thoughts so as to be as kind towards the one who hates me as towards the one who loves me.' Abba Abraham said to him, 'So then, the passions continue to live; it is simply that they are controlled by the saints.'
Is there some kind of guide, that would help a person to learn how to control these passions?
Here's a suggestion that may help you. Go read the bible again from cover to cover. This time though, don't read it as if it's a religious text. Don't read it even as a self help or guide book. Instead, read it as a novel. Wait until you're finished, then if you want, you can go back and evaluate it, but again, do it as if it's a novel.
One other thing you can do is don't base your choices on the idea of going to heaven or hell after you die. To me, I see this as one of the biggest problem and/or conflict that people who believe in an afterlife and/or theists, especially Christians. This is why many Christians believe that atheism can only lead to nihilism and cannot grasp the thought of atheism doesn't necessarily lead to nihilism. They only see that that's how they are. This only show that they don't believe in their (moral)values. Think of it this way. You believe that you should not commit murder. It's not because you believe that it's wrong, but because you don't want to go to hell. Compare that to actually believe that murder is wrong. So whenever you no longer believe a god and/or hell exist, you don't go around murdering people.
Real life example that I have encountered from people. Some people have opened and hold the door for me. Immediately after I walked through the door, they respond by saying with an attitude, "You're welcome." To me, it means that they did it only for the reward of someone saying, "Thank you."
Think about this. What is the significant value of not commiting murder? Is it because it's wrong, or because god commanded it?
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Christians don't base our choices for moral good on fear of going to hell.
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love." (1 Jn 4:18)
“Love seeks no cause beyond itself and no fruit; it is its own fruit, its own enjoyment. I love because I love; I love in order that I may love.” (St. Bernard)
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
First guide is our conscience. You seem to have a sensitive conscience. First you have to be aware of something and accept it. Then you can change. The word sin comes from "to miss the target". Many don't even recognize they are enslaved. Do what you will is slavery (false freedom). Love and do what you will is real freedom.
Every day we have situations that offer different responses (thoughts, words and deeds). Take respons-ibility. The most simple logical guide would be: do more what is virtuous and avoid what is vicious. Besides that there is also special training (ascetic practice) and help (prayer, spiritual reading, spiritual assistance, company of spiritual people... ).
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Going to heaven, yes. Still reward based. What is said in the bible is not what every Christians believe and/or understand. And just to be clear, I wasn't talking about all Christians.