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Evidences given for a young-earth

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Frankly it looks as if at best you have had a severe attack of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Dawkin's work. You did yourself no favors by referring to your previous failures in interpreting Genesis and trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole.

Once again, why not quote and link the places where Dawkins used the arguments that you claim that he did? I have never seen anyone else make those claims. In fact here is a recent article on the book and the only negative comment they have is:

"Dawkins showed some draft chapters to Tom Maschler of Jonathan Cape, who strongly urged that the title be changed to 'The Immortal Gene'. Today, Dawkins regrets not taking the advice. It might have short-circuited the endless arguments, so beloved of his critics and so redolent of the intentional stance (in which we tend to impute mental abilities to unconscious things, from thunderstorms to plants), about whether selfishness need be conscious. It might even have avoided the common misconception that Dawkins was advocating individual selfishness."


In retrospect: The Selfish Gene

Your mischaracterization of his arguments looked like you were making exactly that error.

Dawkins was claiming, indirectly, that the meaning of life was about procreation.
And that means what I said earlier about killing kids not your own and screwing
around so that other men can raise your kids. That's the sum of it for us humans.
Genes not only rule, the universe formed for their propagation, obviously.

I read the God Delusion when it came out. Nothing in the book I found to be
original. I suspect Dawkins did a bit of Googling and made some money on his
name.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Dawkins was claiming, indirectly, that the meaning of life was about procreation.
And that means what I said earlier about killing kids not your own and screwing
around so that other men can raise your kids. That's the sum of it for us humans.
Genes not only rule, the universe formed for their propagation, obviously.

I read the God Delusion when it came out. Nothing in the book I found to be
original. I suspect Dawkins did a bit of Googling and made some money on his
name.
That is your claim, it is worthless without supporting evidence. From what I have seen it is incredibly wrong.

Remember your failure with Genesis. You have a tendency to try to make things say what you want them to say.

And I now sincerely doubt all of your claims. The Selfish Gene was published in 1976. Guess what did not exist in 1976.

Not only that it was Dawkins' first work. He could not have made any money on his name before that. You are presently shooting yourself in the foot.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
That is your claim, it is worthless without supporting evidence. From what I have seen it is incredibly wrong.

Remember your failure with Genesis. You have a tendency to try to make things say what you want them to say.

And I now sincerely doubt all of your claims. The Selfish Gene was published in 1976. Guess what did not exist in 1976.

Not only that it was Dawkins' first work. He could not have made any money on his name before that. You are presently shooting yourself in the foot.

I am not referring to the Selfish Gene, I am referring to the God Delusion.
Which is to say, a biologist writes a book about God. It's like Miley Cyrus
giving her fashionable views on transgenderism.
In fact, the points I put out about the sequence of events in Genesis 1
were not mentioned in Dawkins book. Being a thorough scientific atheist
I would have thought he would have tackled this chapter, if only to put it
to rest. Issues of historicity in the bible, prophecy, dating etc.. He touched
none of it - and he's aiming at Christians and Jews !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I am not referring to the Selfish Gene, I am referring to the God Delusion.
Which is to say, a biologist writes a book about God. It's like Miley Cyrus
giving her fashionable views on transgenderism.
In fact, the points I put out about the sequence of events in Genesis 1
were not mentioned in Dawkins book. Being a thorough scientific atheist
I would have thought he would have tackled this chapter, if only to put it
to rest. Issues of historicity in the bible, prophecy, dating etc.. He touched
none of it - and he's aiming at Christians and Jews !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, my mistake.

Still you should be able to quote from it. When you were talking about his view of evolution it was so wrong that I thought that you were referring to the Selfish Gene.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Oh my! Caught in a falsehood. Naughty naughty.

Um... we are talking about two things here.
And getting wires crossed.
Selfish Gene is about the evolution of genes. It's quite
insightful.
The God Delusion is a copy and paste attack upon
people's religious sentiments. I have heard better
arguments than the ones he picks.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It's merely as example - had it not been for a chance meteorite
hitting earth in a precise spot and angle YOU would not be here.
You owe your presence to that? And how many more chance
events can you thank?

And how does that make my life meaningless?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
And how does that make my life meaningless?

If you are here by accident then your life doesn't have innate meaning.
Your life is like the random shuffling of letters in alphabet soup - you
might think the soup is speaking to you, should you prefer, otherwise
everything is just accident.
Inventing meaning for yourself just underscores there's no meaning
"out there."

Either God made us, in which case there's purpose, or the universe
stumbled into existence and soon - vanish again without meaning.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
If you are here by accident then your life doesn't have innate meaning.

And why is this the case? And why must meaning be innate to be meaningful?

Your life is like the random shuffling of letters in alphabet soup - you
might think the soup is speaking to you, should you prefer, otherwise
everything is just accident.

And why do you think it must be 'random'? Do you see the opposite of planned to be random?

Inventing meaning for yourself just underscores there's no meaning
"out there."

OK, so why does meaning have to be 'out there' to be meaningful?

Either God made us, in which case there's purpose, or the universe
stumbled into existence and soon - vanish again without meaning.

I see. For you, it seems that the only way for something to have meaning is for it to be planned and be eternal. I'm not sure why you think that. It seems a very restrictive concept of 'meaningful' to me. To the contrary, it seems that a great many highly meaningful things are unplanned and fleeting.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
And why is this the case? And why must meaning be innate to be meaningful?
And why do you think it must be 'random'? Do you see the opposite of planned to be random?
OK, so why does meaning have to be 'out there' to be meaningful?
I see. For you, it seems that the only way for something to have meaning is for it to be planned and be eternal. I'm not sure why you think that. It seems a very restrictive concept of 'meaningful' to me. To the contrary, it seems that a great many highly meaningful things are unplanned and fleeting.

I can see and respect your POV. And here we get into Existentialism and the 'death of God.'
And I am not a philosopher.
Wiki. "In the view of the existentialist, the individual's starting point is characterized by what has been called
"the existential angst" (or variably, existential attitude, dread, etc.), or a sense of disorientation, confusion, or
dread in the face of an apparently meaningless or absurd world."

As I see it, if everyone has to go invent a meaning to life then there wasn't a meaning to start with.
A bit like if there's a thousand cures for a disease (ie the flu) that's a sign there's NO cure for it.
And in Nietzsche's "death of God" he recognized the traditional meaning for life was dead.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I can see and respect your POV. And here we get into Existentialism and the 'death of God.'
And I am not a philosopher.
Wiki. "In the view of the existentialist, the individual's starting point is characterized by what has been called
"the existential angst" (or variably, existential attitude, dread, etc.), or a sense of disorientation, confusion, or
dread in the face of an apparently meaningless or absurd world."

As I see it, if everyone has to go invent a meaning to life then there wasn't a meaning to start with.
A bit like if there's a thousand cures for a disease (ie the flu) that's a sign there's NO cure for it.
And in Nietzsche's "death of God" he recognized the traditional meaning for life was dead.

And I'm not sure why the existence of a deity would change anything. So, suppose God created everything and has some sort of goal. So what? Does that mean that God's goal for me should be *my* goal for me? Why would that be the case? What if God's goal is something I find abhorrent?

And what tells me is that, in any case, we are the ones making up our own meaning. We get to determine what is and is not meaningful *for us*. And to expect meaning to be something 'inherent' in anything is to expect the impossible. Meaning is something *we* give to things. In a sense, we are what gives the universe meaning, not the other way around.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
And I'm not sure why the existence of a deity would change anything. So, suppose God created everything and has some sort of goal. So what? Does that mean that God's goal for me should be *my* goal for me? Why would that be the case? What if God's goal is something I find abhorrent?

And what tells me is that, in any case, we are the ones making up our own meaning. We get to determine what is and is not meaningful *for us*. And to expect meaning to be something 'inherent' in anything is to expect the impossible. Meaning is something *we* give to things. In a sense, we are what gives the universe meaning, not the other way around.

Like most things argued, this isn't mine verses your point of view.
Rather there's a number of views and we select the one that best
reflects our world view.

But I do see societal issues with the loss of an innate, universal
meaning. For one we can't agree on much anymore. And it could
increase the alcohol and suicide rate, too. Just say'n - we can't all
be Nietzsche's super-being who figures it all out for ourselves and
lives by it.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
And it could
increase the alcohol and suicide rate, too.
FT.19.03.05_drinkingReligiosity_consumption420px2.png



Protestants are bigger drunks than atheists.

Shocking.

Of course, since these are self-reported answers, I would be suspicious of the religious claiming not to drink - in my experience, they tend to over-state or under-state things in order to shine a positive light on their religion.
 
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