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Is progressive revelation believable?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Plus we have to recognize this is the age of unity, that the whole human species is one family and the earth is our home.

I would pose to you the same question that Mahatma Gandhi enquired of an American Christian evangelist in 1926 (intent on giving him 'proofs' that Jesus was "the highest manifestation of the unseen" God):

Do you not think that religious unity is to be had not by a mechanical subscription to a common creed but by all respecting the creed of each? In my opinion, difference in creed there must be so long as there are different brains. But why does it matter if all these are hung upon the common thread of love and mutual esteem?

We don't need the different 'religions' to subscribe to a new revelation / prophet / holy book. In the end, that's just the same old quest for uniformity hiding under the mask of 'unity in diversity', without really making good on the 'diversity' side of the equation.

All we need to do is learn the art of tolerance and mutual respect, in spite of our doctrinal differences (which will never be entirely overcome).
 
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od19g6

Member
I'd say that you're probably a Baha'i. If you think that there's no difference between the Jesus Christ in the Qur'an and the Jesus Christ I believe in, you're going to be confused when I say there is a fundamental difference.

The only fundamental difference with Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad is the social teachings of their revelation in which it was the time and place that is was revealed in.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That's why Baha'u'llah explained why the religions seemed different, that all the major world scriptures are part of one book of God with different chapters of each time and age.
Precisely...

And that's the difference between syncretism and being a Baha'i :)

I wouldn't call it a bias towards Baha'u'llah... maybe it's an informed decision? I don't know what to call it. But I don't want to apply a negative valence to it.
 

od19g6

Member
There is a verse in the Gospels known as the Olivet discourse or the final Sermon of Jesus recorded before He was crucified.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30

Baha'u'llah discussed the verse in considerable detail in the Kitab-i-Iqan. It speaks to me about the traditions we have all come from that are like clouds or obscuring veils. These inherited traditions or clouds make it extremely difficult for us to see a new Messenger of God or indeed anything that departs from what we are accustomed to.

Interesting.

So what page is that in the Kitáb-i-íqán?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
It's because of both of the life and teachings of the Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God that you get the total prospective of proofs and evidences of their mission. They walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

This is where independent investigation of truths comes into play. Baha'u'llah says that in this time and age every individual is responsible to use his / her own mind.

Investigate Baha'u'llah's life and teachings.

What is the point of this thread if not to discuss this? I'm asking you what about his life demonstrates that he's the prophet of a deity.

As for his teachings, his teachings are claims. One of those claims is that he declared himself a prophet. I'm asking what the evidence is that that's correct. You can't point to his teachings as evidence for his teachings.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Deeje ,

My current approach/mindset is based on one word: "Countenance". It's a funny word. I'm not sure how often it's used... like ever.

But the idea is that G-d is facing the Jewish people ( G-d's countenance ) and gives the Torah directly to the Jewish people. However, G-d may at any moment offer His Countenance to others? right?

So that's how I've been putting the pieces back together in my own squash ( aka my brain-places ) after learning about world religions and discovering their many similarities. I try to focus on the one boat, Torah, which is offered from G-d directly to the Jewish people. This, I don't know, takes the edge off. I don't feel the need to reconcile all the world's religions. I don't need to figure out which one is correct. But I can still appreciate the beauty and the synergy of the World's religions, and also, ultimately, the beauty and synergy of Creation.

That way I can indulge in my love of learning about world religions and making new friends without feeling the stress of trying to figure out how all of them could possibly be from G-d All-mighty, the creator of ALL.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
that the whole human species is one family and the earth is our home.
And we need the Baha'u'llah to tell us that? Or we're supposed to believe that the Baha'ullah is the physical manifestation of a divine revelation just because he said that humans are one family and earth is our home? You're gonna have to give me something better than that to keep me interested. How about this: Was Baha'u'llah an Einsteinian Relativist or an Anti-relativist?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
then you will find that His life and His teachings are the proofs and evidences of what He is.

That's not proof, in and of itself, as most freethinking people would define it.

One can know some 'truths' with high degrees of certitude: for instance, I know the earth isn't flat and the heliocentric model of the solar system is correct whereas the geocentric is wrong; I know that no matter where I go in the universe, the law of gravity will still apply because it is universal. Same with the laws underlying quantum mechanics - indeterminacy, probability. These truths and others like them have been tested and backed up by bucket-loads of validating empirical evidence.

Religious / metaphysical ideas, however, don't operate in that way. They don't make testable predictions - indeed whether or not Baha'u'llah received a Revelation from the Maid of Heaven or Moses the voice of God in the Burning Bush is 'unfalsifiable' - it lies outside the domain of scientific enquiry, the kinds of things we can hypothesize and then make testable predictions about that are proved or disproved based upon experiment.

Religious claims aren't like that.

Every speculative philosophical and religious idea deriving from divine revelation falls into the category of, "it may be true, it may be out there - but we can't prove it", other than through personal experience say with prayer or mysticism, or the appeal of the merits of a certain grand meta-narrative / vision / value-system / argument to a given individual. But such means only provide proof for the individual - they cannot be used to compel others to believe in things that are inherently untestable.

God, for instance, is put forward by theists and deists as the reason for nature, the explanation of why things are the way they are (why we have something rather than nothing, to reference Leibniz); as such God is outside what the realm of science can viably investigate and test - because science has physical and principal limits contingent upon what we are physically able to observe, whether directly or indirectly (in terms of testable consequences).

This fact reminds us to be wary of reifying or absolutizing our own 'untestable / speculative' beliefs and ideals at the expense of those of others.

That humbling recognition provides a basis for a unity of tolerance and mutual respect - not one of conformity of all the "isms" to a new super-"ism" that is allegedly the zeitgeist of the age.

I think we all need to temper our beliefs with a moderate degree of agnosticism. I, for one, am a Catholic theist but I can't prove the truth of the purported revelation underlying my religion (the deposit of faith, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church) because it lies beyond the scope of scientific inquiry. We must live with that kind of "unknowing" and uncertainty - indeed we must embrace it and recognise that it means our views are not superior to anybody else's when it comes to ultimate truth (however rightly and ardently we believe our own religion to be "the truth"), such that we must respect and tolerate our differences.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Shoghi Effendi, the leader of the Baha'i Faith from 1921 to 1957 and authorised interpreter of the Baha'i writings made an important statement about the one and only thing that will ensure the eventual success of the Baha'i Faith and that is the extent to which Baha'is live the Baha'i life as reflected in their inmost thoughts:

Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’í Administration, Page 66

Shoghi Effendi also made it clear that all religious truth is relative.

The fundamental principle enunciated by Baha’u’llah, the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that Religious truth is not absolute but relative ....


No Faith is Final - Religious Claims to Absolute Truth
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
It's because of both of the life and teachings of the Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God that you get the total prospective of proofs and evidences of their mission.

Further to this idea of 'proof' (as stated above, I don't believe any religion including my own can actually be "proved" to be true inasmuch as religious claims are fundamentally untestable unlike scientific theories), the Spanish priest and theologian Francisco de Vitoria, of the Salamanca School, pointed out in 1532 that the Conquistadors had no right to expect the Amerindian natives to convert to Christianity just because Jesus's life and gospel were just so "self-evidently" true to the colonists (but not to the Amerindians who had their own time-honoured religious traditions and gods!):


De Indis De Jure Belli/Part 2 - Wikisource, the free online library


"The pagans in question are not bound, directly the Christian faith is announced to them, to believe it, in such a way that they commit mortal sin by not believing it, merely because it has been declared and announced to them that Christianity is the true religion and that Christ is the Saviour and Redeemer of the world, without any other proof or persuasion.

For if before hearing anything of the Christian religion [the pagans] were excused, they are put under no fresh obligation by a simple declaration and announcement of the gospel, for such announcement is no proof or incentive to belief… Nay…it would be rash and imprudent for any one to believe anything, especially in matters which concern salvation, unless he knows that this is asserted by a man worthy of credence…[therefore] matters of faith are seen and become evident by reason of their credibility. For a believer would not believe unless he saw the things were worthy of belief because of the evidence (On the Indians Lately Discovered Section 2 Chapter 10)

So I can't just say, "boy, just look at the life and teachings of this Jesus of Nazareth. He's so obviously the Son of God, like seriously how can you not see that?"

The reasons why individual people, for individual reasons based upon their own psychology and upbringing and life experiences and learning, are persuaded by the untestable metaphysical / speculative claims of different religions (or not), are are as varied as the number of people.

There is no one-size fits all "proof" for a particular creed over all the others that will convince everyone just because its self-evidently true, like the testable predictions of evolutionary theory or general relativity that are empirically evidenced. Ultimately, it all comes down to individual predilection and worldview.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you sure?

I'd say there were a few other differences too.

1/ Number of wives:
Muhammad 13
Christ 0
Muhammad's wives - Wikipedia

2/ Military engagement:
Muhammad fought over a a number of battles over a 10 year period.
Military career of Muhammad - Wikipedia
Christ fought in none

3/ Length of ministry:
Muhammad 22 years
Christ 3 years

4/ Achievements
Muhammad united a dispate group of tribes on the Arabian Peninsula. Christ has had a relatively modest number of followers and then He was crucified.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'd say there were a few other differences too.

1/ Number of wives:
Muhammad 13
Christ 0
Muhammad's wives - Wikipedia

2/ Military engagement:
Muhammad fought over a a number of battles over a 10 year period.
Military career of Muhammad - Wikipedia
Christ fought in none

3/ Length of ministry:
Muhammad 22 years
Christ 3 years

4/ Achievements
Muhammad united a dispate group of tribes on the Arabian Peninsula. Christ has had a relatively modest number of followers and then He was crucified.
I was thinking of 2 words: Sunnah and Shirk. Looks like you've got the Sunnah covered. But there's also the idea the praying thru Jesus to get to the Father... that's Shirk.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I was thinking of 2 words: Sunnah and Shirk. Looks like you've got the Sunnah covered. But there's also the idea the praying thru Jesus to get to the Father... that's Shirk.

Many Sufi Muslims of the Sunni persuasion and Shi'ite sects were mighty guilty of shirk then.

There are sizeable Shi'ite sects which believe: in a Trinity of Divine Emanations that incarnate cyclically, including Muhammad and Imam Ali, as well as reincarnation (Alawites); that the Yawm al-Qiyāmah (“the Day of Resurrection”) will not actually take place at the end of time in the afterlife but has already occurred within history, in the person of the Imam of the Time Hasan in 1164 A.D., which means that sharia law has been abrogated because "there will be no laws in Paradise" (Nizari Ismaili) and that the last Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, lives in occultation and will reappear as the promised Mahdi (Twelver Shi'ism).

Sunnism, despite being somewhat more uniform in terms of shariah law given the genesis of all classical schools in a set of early jurisprudential madhabs, is just as crazy in terms of theological dispute - if not more so, actually, given its decentralised governance model.

The Sufi movement with its explicit mysticism and veneration of the Wali (saints), was born in the Sunni world. Some Sufi schools (which are, again, incredibly diverse theologically) teach the extremely bizarre - by conventional literalist Islamic standards - doctrine of An-Nūr al-Muḥammadī, or the Muhammadan Light, which posits that Muhammad existed before creation itself and that creation is a manifestation of his primordial nur or light. Ibn Al-Arabi (1076–1148) and Fariddudin Attar (1145–1221) were prominent advocates, the later having wrote, "The origin of the soul is the absolute light, nothing else. That means it was the light of Muhammad, nothing else." Many modern literalist Sunnis would view this as shirk, or associating partners with God, but for many centuries a lot of Muslims believed this.

And many of these groups view one another as heretics.

In brief: "shirk" is what the respective Islamic sect makes of it.

Islam is a far more heterogeneous religion than most people are aware. Once you bypass the overly simplistic bifurcations, the diversity and theological chaos of the tradition becomes apparent.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I was thinking of 2 words: Sunnah and Shirk. Looks like you've got the Sunnah covered. But there's also the idea the praying thru Jesus to get to the Father... that's Shirk.

As I understand it the main theological differences between Islam and Christianity include:

1/ The Divinity of Christ
2/ The Sonship of Christ
3/ The Trinity
4/ The means and nature of Salvation
5/ The Resurrection
6/ The crucifixion of Christ

So that has implications as to how Christians and Muslims pray.

What are the Key Theological Differences between Islam and Christianity Regarding Concepts of God

The Baha'i Faith has some interesting similarities to Christianity despite its Islamic origins:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 108-113
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
As I understand it the main theological differences between Islam and Christianity include:

1/ The Divinity of Christ
2/ The Sonship of Christ
3/ The Trinity
4/ The means and nature of Salvation
5/ The Resurrection
6/ The crucifixion of Christ

So that has implications as to how Christians and Muslims pray.

Of the two major Islamic denominations, I'd personally say that Shi'ism has more immediate similarities in theology to my Catholic Christianity than Sunni Islam.

Ashura / Muharram, the commemoration of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn, would remind many observant Catholics of our own Good Friday / Lent (the crucifixion of Jesus), especially in terms of the mourning for the innocent wronged one side of things, and the idea of self-sacrifice.

Muharram is centred around rituals that commemorate the Shia community having been a persecuted "under-dog" minority, alongside Christians, Zoroastrians and Jews, within the Sunni Umayyad Caliphate and their leader, Imam Husayn, suffering martyrdom for refusing to recognise (in Shia eyes) the tyrannical and unconstitutional authority of the Sunni caliphs.

Thus in the Nahj al-Balagha, collected by Sharif Razi, a Shia scholar in the Tenth century, we find the following statements attributed to Imam Ali:


Letter 47

Let the eternal Reward and Blessings of Allah be the prompting factors for all that you say and do. Be an enemy of tyrants and oppressors and be a friend and helper of those who are oppressed and tyrannized.

Letter 17

We (Bani Hashim) still own the glory of prophethood (having the Holy Prophet (s) from amongst us). Prophethood which brought equality to mankind by lowering the position of mighty and despotic lords and raising the status of oppressed and humiliated persons.

I see this as somewhat reminiscent, at least in sentiment, of:


25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that among the nations, those who appear to be their kings lord it over them, and their 'great' men are tyrants over them. 26 But it shall not be this way among you, rather whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28)

"Who does not know that kings and dukes had their rulership from those who, not knowing God, strove from blind greed and intolerable presumption to dominate their equals, namely mankind, by pride, rapine, perfidy, murder, and crimes of all sorts, urged on by the ruler of the world, i.e., the devil?…"

(
Pope Gregory VII in 1081: 552; see also Poole 1920: 201, fn. 5)


Thus the 'social teachings' of Christianity and Shia Islam (while very different in many other respects) do bear some similarity, in terms of elements of social justice.

But one of the greatest differences - and it is an unbridgeable one, inasmuch as it is just a distinct outlook - has to do with the place of divine law. Islam teaches that Allah has revealed a shariah (in the Sunnah, Qur'an and Hadith), a divinely ordained law to govern human affairs.

Christian theology repudiates this idea.

St. Paul postulated that there was no longer any objective need for a divinely imposed law for governing society but rather that the true source of "the law" was to be sought in the individual human conscience and the corresponding idea that not everyone would interpret this "natural law" in exactly the same way, meaning that difference in custom, dietary habit, clothing and civil or criminal matters had to be tolerated and could be amended in accordance with human need:

Romans 2: 14-15


Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts


Romans 14:1-23

Welcome a man whose faith is weak, but not with the idea of arguing over his scruples. One man believes that he may eat anything, another man, without this strong conviction, eats only vegetables. The one who eats meat [that isn't kosher or is sacrificed to animals] should not despise the one who refrains, nor should the vegetarian condemn the meat-eater.

Again, one man thinks some days holier than others. Another man considers them all alike. Let every one be definite in his own convictions. If a man specially observes one particular day, he does so “to God”. The man who eats, eats “to God”, for he thanks God for the food. The man who fasts also does it “to God”, for he thanks God for the benefits of fasting. The faith you have, have as your own conviction before God.

Let us therefore stop turning critical eyes on one another. If we must be critical, let us be critical of our own conduct and see that we do nothing to make a brother stumble or fall.

We should be willing to be both vegetarians and teetotallers if by doing otherwise we should impede a brother’s progress in faith. Your personal convictions are a matter of faith between yourself and God, and you are happy if you have no qualms about what you allow yourself to eat. Yet if a man eats meat with an uneasy conscience about it, you may be sure he is wrong to do so. For his action does not spring from his faith, and when we act apart from our faith we sin.

This is an enormously important idea, because in tandem with Jesus's concept of "render to Caesar what is Caeser's and to God what is God's" and his abrogation of the ritual-cleanliness laws of kashrut and the criminal justice of the Old Testament (i.e. saving the life of the adulterous woman from being stoned to death in accordance with Deuteronomy), it moves away from the concept of prescriptive law as being of divine origin, in favour of a society in which public and private law become separate disciplines from theology, and are deemed to be fundamentally human in origin - a fallible and thus revocable human attempt to encode the intuitions of conscience for a given historical circumstance, as humankind increases in better understanding of natural law.

And that has big ramifications for the two religions.
 
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