If thou shalt not covet, isn't 'thou shalt not steal' a redundant commandment

Harel13 said:

I'm putting God first, yet here I am walking with strings coming out of my undershirt...yet you say I wouldn't be doing any of the other commandments? God also has positive commandments, bro. Should I quit doing those too?

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If you put God first you listen to all his other commands

I have no problem with overlap

whirlingmerc said:

If you put God first you listen to all his other commands

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And therefore, you're also walking around with strings coming out of your undershirt? Good for you.

If a person was poor and hungry to the point of death and he stole some food to live would that be coveting?

ideogenous_mover said:

Ok, but surely there's a claim there that at some point, the depth of their desire precludes their ability to covet before they act

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Theft to support loved ones is entirely a different issue than longing after the actual life of another.

Coveting is not simply a prelude to theft, it's a pervasive feeling of being unable to be satisfied with your own life. I was transgender (now genderfluid), and I am doing nothing to steal from women. But I almost mangled my own body because I wasn't happy with my gender.

To covet has actually nothing to do with theft, and everything to do with the sort of "Keeping up with the Jones" mentality, the state of never being content. Without stealing from others, coveting can lead one to hurt others through perceived "privilege". I use that word, because I hear minorities spew crap about "white privilege" when uhhh actually, as a white person I never had any special interest groups look after me. If I was poor, and went to some poverty center, I could expect to be told that I wasn't disadvantaged enough. If I applied for a job, because they saw a male, I was expected to want to be in administrative positions or highly physical ones. I have enough of my own resentment for the people who coveted after me, while seeming to have easier lives. To covet is not so much about what someone has as it is about what someone is. You covet your neighbor because they have a nice *** or wife or whatever, but you covet more because they are that person, in that position, that they seem to have these things.

Essentially, theft is simple robbery, while coveting more likely leads to stuff like a twin committing identity fraud. Or outright murder.

Samantha Rinne said:

Coveting is not simply a prelude to theft, it's a pervasive feeling of being unable to be satisfied with your own life. I was transgender (now genderfluid), and I am doing nothing to steal from women. But I almost mangled my own body because I wasn't happy with my gender.

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Dissatisfaction certainly would be an attribute that would go into coveting, as would desire as well. Desire I think, is often associated with things that another might have, but if it is but an attribute that is freely generated, then it seems defensible as a form of desire free of coveting. Therefore, you didn't take anything from them under the aegis that they cannot own a concept, that can be freely generated

Samantha Rinne said:

Theft to support loved ones is entirely a different issue than longing after the actual life of another.

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Samantha Rinne said:

To covet is not so much about what someone has as it is about what someone is.

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Though at what point does the desire/longing/covetousness transform into the kind of survival desperation that would obviate a sinning kind of desire in the technical sense?

To covet could refer things had by others that one wishes to gain from them specifically, that you cannot generate without most likely stealing. Though I suppose it could also refer to attributes about them which you could never steal or generate

I suppose this is why I like the explanation provided earlier in the thread by Tumah, where coveting cannot be completed as a sin until actual gain occurs. Looking for covetousness in a person's mind sets the bar too high, though I think that there are new testament verses that proclaim things like 'you must tear you eye out if it causes the mind to desire,' which seem to explicitly target one's thoughts

ideogenous_mover said:

Inspired from a Christopher Hitchens thing I had on a little while ago, though he didn't ask this question. But basically as he put it, coveting is something you do in your mind, and he interpreted it as a commandment about mind control. The physical act of stealing, it occurs to me, can really only follow the 'act' of coveting, though it be a mental one. Therefore, declaring that one cannot steal is logically redundant since you cannot covet. It might as well also have had a command that you cannot think about lying

Coveting also is probably something that the human subconscious brings to the table, therefore it's probably impossible for our meager primate minds to avoid occasionally doing it, like as in the Jungian dream world where the ego's 'shadow' is, for example. Also, how do you not covet success at least a little bit in a western capitalist society? Divine mental laws are surely impossible to follow

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When I converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the missionaries told me it was being jealous enough to commit a crime.

Tumah said:

Well, it's not an inherent meaning in the word. In Deut. 7:25, the prohibition is to not desire the idols of the Canaanites and take them. The Talmud/Midrash learns from there that "desiring" needs to have a "taking" in order to be transgressed (presumably because otherwise one would have already transgressed the prohibition of "desiring" before one had taken the idol, making the "taking" superfluous).

On a slightly related note, the prohibition against stealing in the Ten Commandments, is actually understood to be about kidnapping and not stealing (which is a prohibition in Lev. 19:11).

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This, then, demonstrates the point of Jesus' teachings which are specifically to address one's internal state of mind and not be merely concerned with what others see. This requirement of "taking" is too permissive of sin.

ideogenous_mover said:

Though at what point does the desire/longing/covetousness transform into the kind of survival desperation that would obviate a sinning kind of desire in the technical sense?

To covet could refer things had by others that one wishes to gain from them specifically, that you cannot generate without most likely stealing. Though I suppose it could also refer to attributes about them which you could never steal or generate

I suppose this is why I like the explanation provided earlier in the thread by Tumah, where coveting cannot be completed as a sin until actual gain occurs. Looking for covetousness in a person's mind sets the bar too high, though I think that there are new testament verses that proclaim things like 'you must tear you eye out if it causes the mind to desire,' which seem to explicitly target one's thoughts

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I dont see it as "too high". I also dont see sinning as the end of the world. Everyone sins... it's what you do about it that determines if you are going to gradually rise above it.

What the Bible doesnt explain is how to address those desires that one has without wanting to have them.

The answer is simple but the solution often elusive: unwanted desires are natural instinctual (and, therefore, God-given) desires that do not have an acceptable means to be satisfied. Understanding what that unmet need is and finding a way to satisfactorily satisfy it is the hard part. One has to look at one's motivations, experiences and feelings in a way that often leaves them feeling weak and vulnerable which mostly we try to avoid.

At some point in our lives we have all learned a "thou shalt" or a "thou shall not" that is at odds with our natural bodily or psychological health. It is that "dragon" which must be "slayed or escaped" that will allow the person to stop sinning in their heart and mind.

If you tend to your private mind then you find that you achieve the true spiritual power in your life. Joyce Meyers has a phrase "the battlefield of the mind" which I find very apt. I also think that this is what Jesus means by the Kingdom of Heaven.

sealchan said:

This, then, demonstrates the point of Jesus' teachings which are specifically to address one's internal state of mind and not be merely concerned with what others see. This requirement of "taking" is too permissive of sin.

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At the very least, you've demonstrated the ignorance that the NT relies on to propagate.
A court can't punish someone for something that can't be seen.

sealchan said:

The answer is simple but the solution often elusive: unwanted desires are natural instinctual (and, therefore, God-given) desires that do not have an acceptable means to be satisfied. Understanding what that unmet need is and finding a way to satisfactorily satisfy it is the hard part. One has to look at one's motivations, experiences and feelings in a way that often leaves them feeling weak and vulnerable which mostly we try to avoid.

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I think on the one hand, the biblical god seems to satisfy the desires of some characters, but it seems like there are other times where he doesn't and maybe desire becomes an issue. Traditions developed somewhere in there that were about self denial, as is seen with the jewish essenes and the christians. The new testament started to clamp down on an individual's mental life, mainly. The traditions of monk-hood and fasting come to the fore, seeming to be more about cultivating inhibitions rather than finding a way to feel sated

Any thoughts on my op question.. how do you steal without first coveting on some level?

sealchan said:

At some point in our lives we have all learned a "thou shalt" or a "thou shall not" that is at odds with our natural bodily or psychological health. It is that "dragon" which must be "slayed or escaped" that will allow the person to stop sinning in their heart and mind.

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What is the dragon? There's something I'm not getting there

Tumah said:

At the very least, you've demonstrated the ignorance that the NT relies on to propagate.
A court can't punish someone for something that can't be seen.

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We would all be a lot better off if our internal courtrooms dealt justice. Knowing how to do that will get us all a lot closer to heaven.

sealchan said:

We would all be a lot better off if our internal courtrooms dealt justice. Knowing how to do that will get us all a lot closer to heaven.

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Yeah, I'll let G-d know that sealchan disagrees with His system.

Tumah said:

Yeah, I'll let G-d know that sealchan disagrees with His system.

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So you dont think that people should be capable of resolving their own propensity to sin by understanding their own psyche and discovering ways to become a more self-aware, compassionate and responsible person with God's help?

ideogenous_mover said:

I think on the one hand, the biblical god seems to satisfy the desires of some characters, but it seems like there are other times where he doesn't and maybe desire becomes an issue. Traditions developed somewhere in there that were about self denial, as is seen with the jewish essenes and the christians. The new testament started to clamp down on an individual's mental life, mainly. The traditions of monk-hood and fasting come to the fore, seeming to be more about cultivating inhibitions rather than finding a way to feel sated

Any thoughts on my op question.. how do you steal without first coveting on some level?

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I am certain that I have asked this very same question and came to the very same conclusion. But given my experience of reading something written so long ago I trust that there is some story behind this apparent redundancy that provides a meaningful context to it. It's the sort of thing one wonders about after discovering it and it seems such an obvious thing, how could it persist without someone pointing it out or correcting it before it became canon?

What is the dragon? There's something I'm not getting there

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I've been watching a video about Joseph Campbell's heroes journey framework for story and myth. The metaphorical dragon is simply whatsoever voice within you that won't let go of an undeniable rule or truth that stands in the way of a person's richer experience of the possibilities in one's life.

For me the important sub text for this whole conversation and for reading the Bible is "what do we do with these absolute rules when no one seems ultimately capable of following them?" Reading Genesis which is a sort of prequel to Moses and the containment of the Ten Commandments, you have to wonder about how God could play so many tricks and kill so many people and then turn around and tell Moses "do not kill", "do not lie"...

Somehow these rules are like signposts to help us get to where God wants us to go, but it does not seem possible that we will ever get there. I think that the authors of the Torah understood this paradox and that is why the Torah is this great epic story full of moral ambiguity AND it is this cut and dry list of rules about what you shall ritually do to remain "good" and what you should not do if you dont want to he bad.

The discipline of following the rules is one guide, but life in God's creation is always much more dynamic than passing a math test is where you can just apply the rules and get the right answer. It's amazing to me now that I get this, but so many people treat the Bible as if it were a mathematics textbook where all of life's problems were a matter of finding the right axioms to apply and one can solve any problem. The problem is that the Bible doesn't have all the answers. As in math, the textbook only presents answers to the problems it shows and it rarely asks a question that it cant readily answer. It seems wise so long as you remain within its scope.

Ironically, however, the Bible also tells stories which show how God works against rules and traditions as God sees fit with little or no justification by any system of rules. I have to think the authors knew this given how literarily (artfully) clever the stories of Genesis are.

sealchan said:

So you dont think that people should be capable of resolving their own propensity to sin by understanding their own psyche and discovering ways to become a more self-aware, compassionate and responsible person with God's help?

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What I think is, first of all, what G-d says is correct. After that we can think of ways to facilitate the fulfillment of G-d's Will. When you start deciding that your ideas are better than G-d's, well, I guess you end up becoming Christian.

Tumah said:

What I think is, first of all, what G-d says is correct. After that we can think of ways to facilitate the fulfillment of G-d's Will. When you start deciding that your ideas are better than G-d's, well, I guess you end up becoming Christian.

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That sounds like something a Christian, who believes "not me, but God" would say.

I believe God wants us to be like Abraham who obeyed but who also questioned.

I will say to you what I would say to those Christian's, God is great and we are small compared to Him, but your thoughts, your feelings are important too. God wants you to get it heart and soul and not simply parrot or ape His word. And that means you absolutely must question that Word. Otherwise who is there to be made clean or saved from sin?

God tried to counsel Cain to consider his state of mind and correct it or it would lead him into trouble. Yet the Bible does not show God providing the necessary insight to Cain to actually accomplish that inner transformation. Why?

Alone said:

If a person was poor and hungry to the point of death and he stole some food to live would that be coveting?

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Indeed.

Should we stand by and watch "sin" take shape inspired by our God given need? Or are we our "brother's keeper"?

sealchan said:

Indeed.

Should we stand by and watch "sin" take shape inspired by our God given need? Or are we our "brother's keeper"?

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sealchan said:

Indeed.

Should we stand by and watch "sin" take shape inspired by our God given need? Or are we our "brother's keeper"?

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Well..... I would have to say that if we saw someone about to die from hunger we should feed them.

sealchan said:

For me the important sub text for this whole conversation and for reading the Bible is "what do we do with these absolute rules when no one seems ultimately capable of following them?" Reading Genesis which is a sort of prequel to Moses and the containment of the Ten Commandments, you have to wonder about how God could play so many tricks and kill so many people and then turn around and tell Moses "do not kill", "do not lie"...

Somehow these rules are like signposts to help us get to where God wants us to go, but it does not seem possible that we will ever get there. I think that the authors of the Torah understood this paradox and that is why the Torah is this great epic story full of moral ambiguity AND it is this cut and dry list of rules about what you shall ritually do to remain "good" and what you should not do if you dont want to he bad.

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Yeah, I dunno. For me personally, and no offense to all the bible followers of whatever religion, I find the whole thing pretty dry overall. I read it cover to cover once. There aren't a whole lot of metaphors in the bible that interest me, it kind of sucks the magic out of everything. For me, religion needs magic, but the bible ends up outlawing all of that. Most physical things in the world get reduced to not having much of a story, god didn't create the things you see for them to be worshiped or wondered at. Other spiritual tales might have long passages about what clouds are, or seas, or trees and rainbows, but not so with the bible. In place of that, you get a thousand pages about the people or cities under god's purview as a metaphorical lover he is angry with, which becomes distasteful. Law creation and infractions against god simply accrete to a fever pitch, somewhere in there.

I'd much rather post about pagan myth, but that's not going generate nearly as much interest or debate. Most people are going to want to talk about the bible, and so I do what I can with that