Six Muslim men sentenced to jail, fine for going to waterfall instead of Friday prayers

Samantha Rinne · Dec 2, 2019

exchemist said:
Under its constitution, Malaysia has a dual legal system, both a general, secular legal system (modelled on that of the former British colonial power) and Sharia law. The latter is applicable only to muslims and is restricted in its powers. It seems it is this that these men have fallen foul of.

More here: Law of Malaysia - Wikipedia

What is perhaps alarming is that this may be a sign of more puritanical enforcement of rules that apparently were not applied strictly in the past.

You say that but in order for this to be enforced, the government either has to track the religious affiliation of ALL of its citizens (which heads into fascism terrority with everyone spied on) or it has to treat non-Muslims under Sharia law, forcing them to also submit to it.

I'll let you decide which is worse.

loverofhumanity · Dec 3, 2019

LuisDantas said:
I don't think so. Surah 2:256 is unsustainable when it attempts to reconcile itself with the Qur'an as a whole. Or even with its own surrounding verses.

There is a reason why it is always that specific Surah that is brought up. It is quite the oddity from a Quranic perspective, and meant to be invoked then promptly forgotten.

And it shows.

The Quran was revealed to Muhammad to the warring and murderous tribes of Arabia and brought about peace and unity to these tribes creating of them a great nation. (who were barbarous and followed traditions such as female infanticide)

The Quran i believe indisputably promotes in many, many passages freedom of religion. Sura 2:256 is only one of them. The verse below applies more to atheists and pagan worshipers as well in my view.

Sura 109:1-6

Say: O unbelievers!
I do not serve that which you serve,
Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Sura 2:62

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

The Quran in many verses clearly promotes tolerance towards other Faiths and non believers but shariah law, which is man made often acts against the spirit of coexistence the Quran promotes.

We Baha’is follow the Quran and fully uphold it as a Book from God yet we don’t have such incidents happen because primarily these arrests and such are based on man made laws not Quranic laws.

exchemist · Dec 3, 2019

Vinayaka said:
For traveling, it's rated really safe. I have friends who just spent 6 weeks there. We plan to go within a year or two. Inexpensive as heck too. Not sure how they know ho is Muslim and who isn't though. I'd like to know that. Maybe they will just accept me saying I'm not.

I think if you have a passport from a country that is predominantly non-muslim, that will be sufficient. Also, this seems to be a unique incident, worthy of news reporting. Sharia courts in Malaysia do not appear, from what I read, to be a well-organised national network, enforcing uniform standards.

LuisDantas · Dec 3, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
The Quran was revealed to Muhammad to the warring and murderous tribes of Arabia and brought about peace and unity to these tribes creating of them a great nation. (who were barbarous and followed traditions such as female infanticide)

The Quran i believe indisputably promotes in many, many passages freedom of religion. Sura 2:256 is only one of them. The verse below applies more to atheists and pagan worshipers as well in my view.

Sura 109:1-6

Say: O unbelievers!
I do not serve that which you serve,
Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Sura 2:62

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

The Quran in many verses clearly promotes tolerance towards other Faiths and non believers but shariah law, which is man made often acts against the spirit of coexistence the Quran promotes.

We Baha’is follow the Quran and fully uphold it as a Book from God yet we don’t have such incidents happen because primarily these arrests and such are based on man made laws not Quranic laws.

I try to put myself in your place and perhaps understand how you can say such things.

I fail. Utterly.

It just doesn't work.

FearGod · Dec 3, 2019

LuisDantas said:
I try to put myself in your place and perhaps understand how you can say such things.

I fail. Utterly.

It just doesn't work.

Do you know a verse in the quran which says punish those who
don't pray on Fridays?

loverofhumanity · Dec 3, 2019

LuisDantas said:
I try to put myself in your place and perhaps understand how you can say such things.

I fail. Utterly.

It just doesn't work.

Ok. We Baha’is 100% believe in the Quran so why aren’t we becoming terrorists? Please note that Baha’is have no clergy.

exchemist · Dec 3, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
Ok. We Baha’is 100% believe in the Quran so why aren’t we becoming terrorists? Please note that Baha’is have no clergy.

People believed in Islam for a thousand years without becoming terrorists.

Look elsewhere.

loverofhumanity · Dec 3, 2019

exchemist said:
People believed in Islam for a thousand years without becoming terrorists.

Look elsewhere.

I have some RC friends and they are very tolerant people. They are a big joy in my life. They send me Christmas music and masses over the internet and all kinds of very enlightening things.

My understanding is that everything good comes from God and everything evil from ourselves.

exchemist · Dec 3, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
I have some RC friends and they are very tolerant people. They are a big joy in my life. They send me Christmas music and masses over the internet and all kinds of very enlightening things.

My understanding is that everything good comes from God and everything evil from ourselves.

Well that's nice. I'm all for a bit of toleration. In fact it was my years living in the Persian Gulf - and my encounter with Buddhism in Thailand - that made realise the absurdity of any one religious denomination claiming to be right and everyone else wrong.

But my point is that Islam does not intrinsically lead to terrorism, the hysterical views of far-right Americans and parts of the Israeli Lobby notwithstanding. A glance at history shows that.

There is a pernicious phenomenon about at the moment, called "political islam". This is a c.20th creation, originating I understand in Egypt and taken up and developed in Pakistan, then exported along with the Pakistani diaspora.

There is also Wahhabism, the extreme sect favoured in Saudi Arabia for more than a century, which has been actively exported by means of the oil money of the Kingdom.

Neither of these phenomena is intrinsic to the religion and, from what I have read, both are considered by many to be perversions of it.

loverofhumanity · Dec 3, 2019

exchemist said:
Well that's nice. I'm all for a bit of toleration. In fact it was my years living in the Persian Gulf - and my encounter with Buddhism in Thailand - that made realise the absurdity of any one religious denomination claiming to be right and everyone else wrong.

But my point is that Islam does not intrinsically lead to terrorism, the hysterical views of far-right Americans and parts of the Israeli Lobby notwithstanding. A glance at history shows that.

There is a pernicious phenomenon about at the moment, called "political islam". This is a c.20th creation, originating I understand in Egypt and taken up and developed in Pakistan, then exported along with the Pakistani diaspora.

There is also Wahhabism, the extreme sect favoured in Saudi Arabia for more than a century, which has been actively exported by means of the oil money of the Kingdom.

Neither of these phenomena is intrinsic to the religion and, from what I have read, both are considered by many to be perversions of it.

Very commendable such a welcoming attitude. Actually about a month ago I was getting depressed because just trying to be friends with people they said they couldn’t associate with me because I was a different Faith. Anyway we had an event and so I contacted the multi cultural group in our area to invite them and met some incredible RC people. I couldn’t believe they were so unbiased and didn’t reject me. I went to mass with them because I believe God is in all churches and in our hearts too. I’ll be going to Christmas Eve mass with them too. By the way A blessed Advent to you!

Anyway these people are just incredible. So, so devoted and loving.They brought indian milk sweets yesterday and came to repair a broken blender today. I think it’s just too easy to be misled by a media clipping or a news report and then generalising. Now I noticed you are RC and also have such a beautiful attitude and immediately felt very happy to meet you. God bless and have a wonderful Christmas.

Aupmanyav · Dec 3, 2019

FearGod said:
Do you know a verse in the quran which says punish those who don't pray on Fridays?

Quran says worship times a day (not just on Friday), and even when you are not worshiping always keep Allah in your mind, let not the thought of Allah slip from your mind even for second.

Aupmanyav · Dec 3, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
Ok. We Baha’is 100% believe in the Quran so why aren’t we becoming terrorists? Please note that Baha’is have no clergy.

You are too few to matter anywhere. And you do not believe in Quran. It was not "written" by Mohammad. So, it falls short by that consideration. Otherwise also, it is out-dated by the message of Bahaullah who was a manifestation of Allah and the sender of prophets. Is that not true.

exchemist said:
People believed in Islam for a thousand years without becoming terrorists.

Before that, they were marauding armies.

exchemist · Dec 3, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
Very commendable such a welcoming attitude. Actually about a month ago I was getting depressed because just trying to be friends with people they said they couldn’t associate with me because I was a different Faith. Anyway we had an event and so I contacted the multi cultural group in our area to invite them and met some incredible RC people. I couldn’t believe they were so unbiased and didn’t reject me. I went to mass with them because I believe God is in all churches and in our hearts too. I’ll be going to Christmas Eve mass with them too. By the way A blessed Advent to you!

Anyway these people are just incredible. So, so devoted and loving.They brought indian milk sweets yesterday and came to repair a broken blender today. I think it’s just too easy to be misled by a media clipping or a news report and then generalising. Now I noticed you are RC and also have such a beautiful attitude and immediately felt very happy to meet you. God bless and have a wonderful Christmas.

I'm not really setting out to be welcoming, just a realist.

Having travelled the world and seen these religions result in similar effects (personal spiritual calm, care of the needy, reservoirs of learning and tradition in their culture), it just seems vanishingly unlikely that any one group of believers, in one part of the world, can claim a monopoly on religious truth.

As for RCs being welcoming, I hope they are, but they have no monopoly on that either!

BilliardsBall · Dec 3, 2019

danieldemol said:
‘KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 1 — In what is possibly the first case in the country, six male Muslims, including three teenagers, were sentenced to a month in jail and fined over RM2,000 for skipping out on Friday prayers last August 23.’

Read more here: Six Muslim men sentenced to jail, fine for going to waterfall instead of Friday prayers | Malay Mail

Man, we could use laws like that here.

loverofhumanity · Dec 3, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
You are too few to matter anywhere. And you do not believe in Quran. It was not "written" by Mohammad. So, it falls short by that consideration. Otherwise also, it is out-dated by the message of Bahaullah who was a manifestation of Allah and the sender of prophets. Is that not true.
Before that, they were marauding armies.

The social laws differ according to the age but the virtues and spiritual truths I believe are eternal and common to all the major religions.

Baroodi · Dec 3, 2019

danieldemol said:
‘KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 1 — In what is possibly the first case in the country, six male Muslims, including three teenagers, were sentenced to a month in jail and fined over RM2,000 for skipping out on Friday prayers last August 23.’

Read more here: Six Muslim men sentenced to jail, fine for going to waterfall instead of Friday prayers | Malay Mail

strange unwise behavior from local authorities, any group 4 and above can do Friday prayer where ever they are in a Jungle, mountain, sea etc ... if it is all safe and appropriate

Samantha Rinne · Dec 3, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
Ok. We Baha’is 100% believe in the Quran so why aren’t we becoming terrorists? Please note that Baha’is have no clergy.

I think you hit the nail on the head, actually.

Spirituality is the future of religion. We need teachers (to guide people in self-study) not imams or bishops or rabbis. When people can decide for themselves what to believe, there will be a great deal less abuse going on.

loverofhumanity · Dec 3, 2019

Samantha Rinne said:
I think you hit the nail on the head, actually.

Spirituality is the future of religion. We need teachers (to guide people in self-study) not imams or bishops or rabbis. When people can decide for themselves what to believe, there will be a great deal less abuse going on.

Hi Samantha. Yes if we independently study the Holy Books for ourselves we will find that they all teach to love and be at peace with all people. If we follow only these Books alone we will find ourselves united and as one family all over the world.

danieldemol · Dec 4, 2019

Baroodi said:
strange unwise behavior from local authorities, any group 4 and above can do Friday prayer where ever they are in a Jungle, mountain, sea etc ... if it is all safe and appropriate

They should also be able to *not* do Friday prayer wherever they are if they don’t feel like it.
But agreed that it is unwise of the local authorities.

Subduction Zone · Dec 4, 2019

ChristineM said:
So you have never hung out with your male friends?

Nothing wrong with cheek kissing of a friend or family nember in greeting. It is America that is weird for not embracing this gesture of friendship.

What!! That is just a slip of the tongue from full blown homosexuality. We can't have that!

Six Muslim men sentenced to jail, fine for going to waterfall instead of Friday prayers

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