sooda
Veteran Member
Why link the tribulation to the second coming if you can't even define the second coming?
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So What Happened To All The Changes, Tribulations, And Woe Jesus Had Promised?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Why link the tribulation to the second coming if you can't even define the second coming?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sorry I do not understand your question? Matthew 24 is in relation to the signs that must be fulfilled before the 2nd coming and the end of the world. The second coming is defined all through the new testament scriptures.
sooda
Veteran Member
Matthew 24 is a bit confusing because Jesus is speaking about the period of the persecution by Antiochus .. He tells the disciples when you see the abomination of desolation (again) flee to the mountains.
Shad
Veteran Member
I am not making that argument. I am just telling you what to expect.
Skwim
Veteran Member
And as I've point out, this never happened, along with Jesu's return. Which prompt my original question, So, what happened?
Agreed.
.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
You did not point anying out. You only took a scripture out of context and provided a false interpretation to it because you did not consider context which is shown in v3, which was JESUS directly answering the question asked by the disciples, "When will be the time of your coming and the end of all things" but you do not believe. All the signs have not been fulfilled so nothing happened or nothing happens until all the signs are fulfilled. Everything happens after all the signs are fulfilled in the generation that sees their fulfillment (all signs) v33, but no one knows the day or the hour v36.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Post 31, "The generation mentioned ↓ came and went, and without the tribulations or Jesus returning."
Have a good day.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Not really. Your confused as to what generation is being discussed. It is the generation that sees all the signs come to pass. JESUS is answering the question asked of the disciples in MATTHEW 24:3 when is the sign of your coming and the end of all things? Even though now most of the signs today have been fulfilled, there has been no generation that has been around that has witnessed the fulfillment of all the signs in relation to the time of the end prior to the second coming which is what the disciples were asking about in MATTHEW 24:3. This has already been addressed in post # 33 linked and post # 35. For me I believe our time is running out as most of the signs today have been fulfilled just as predicted. I believe, if your using your claims in this OP as your excuse not to beleive God than you do not really have one.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There will be no second coming of the same man Jesus. Jesus never promised to return, not once in the entire NT.
The second coming refers to the return of the Spirit of Christ, not to the physical body of Jesus dropping down from heaven on the clouds. That false belief came about from misinterpreting scripture.
The reason you do not see Jesus is not because the prophecies have not been fulfilled. They have all been fulfilled. The reason you do not see Jesus is because Jesus never planned to return to earth.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.
Then in the next chapter you have these verses:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
The Lord used a multitude of spiritual references especially in The parables is it possible that the generation he was speaking of was the spiritual generation?
sooda
Veteran Member
Already happened. The Temple was destroyed.. Israel was defeated by many armies marching against it.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
These are your words that are not God's Word. Then there is God's Word that is not your words from both the old and new testament scriptures that say...
EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM IN THE CLOUDS AT THE SECOND COMING…
Psalms 97:2 CLOUDS AND DARKNESS ARE ROUND ABOUT HIM: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
Psalms 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: WHO MAKETH THE CLOUDS HIS CHARIOT: WHO WALKETH UPON THE WINGS OF THE WIND:
Jeremiah 4:13 Behold, HE SHALL COME UP AS CLOUDS, AND HIS CHARIOTS SHALL BE AS A WHIRLWIND: HIS HORSES ARE SWIFTER THAN EAGLES. WOE UNTO US! FOR WE ARE SPOILED.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, BEHOLD, ONE LIKE THE SON OF MAN CAME WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, AND CAME TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS, and they brought him near before him.
Yep the old testament scripture tell of the second coming...
Matthew 16:27 For THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER WITH HIS ANGELS; AND THEN HE SHALL REWARD EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.
Matthew 24:30-31 And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. [31] And HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.
Mark 13:26-27 And THEN SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY. [27] And THEN SHALL HE SEND HIS ANGELS AND SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven.
Acts 1:9-11 [9], And when he had spoken these things, WHILE THEY BEHELD, HE WAS TAKEN UP; AND A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM OUT OF THEIR SIGHT. [10], And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11], Which also said, YOU MEN OF GALILEE, WHY STAND YOU GAZING UP INTO HEAVEN? THIS SAME JESUS, WHICH IS TAKEN UP FROM YOU INTO HEAVEN, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YOU HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 [6], Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7], And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, [8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: [9], Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER
2 Thessalonians 2:8, And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING
Revelation 22:12 And, BEHOLD, I COME QUICKLY; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
1 Thessalonians 2 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Yep seems according to the scriptures, every eye will see him of those who are still alive.
Seems like God's Word disagrees with your words that are not Gods.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Indeed but you are not reading the scriptures. The other signs have not been fulfilled. So the disciples cannot be the final generation.
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sooda
Veteran Member
Its a spiritual return.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Not really....
Matthew 24:4-8 [4], And Jesus answered and said to them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5], For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. [6], And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that you be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7], For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [8], All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Matthew 24:14, And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.
Nope, never happened in that generation as did many of the other signs of the end listed in Matthew 24..
JESUS work being finished is in context to his work being finished in the earth as our sacrifice for sin. It is not talking about his work that is to be done in heaven as our great high priest in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands. *HEBREWS 7; HEBREWS 8; HEBREWS 9; HEBREWS 10.
None of those scriptures say that JESUS never planned to return. All the bible says that he is planning to return. You confused. Please see the previous post.. *Matthew 16:27; Matthew 24:30-31; Mark 13:26-27; Acts 1:9-11; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 22:12; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
You may need to revisit your bible.
Of course JESUS kingdom is not of this world it is the kingdom of Heaven and righteousness and not of sin. This world will be destroyed at the second coming. You do err not knowing the scriptueres or the power of God.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Not according to the scriptures you ignored in the post you are quoting from. *Matthew 16:27; Matthew 24:30-31; Mark 13:26-27; Acts 1:9-11; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 22:12; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Every eye shall see him...
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nowhere in ANY of those verses does it say that the same man Jesus is going to return.
They shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds does not refer to Jesus.
and, BEHOLD, ONE LIKE THE SON OF MAN CAME WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, AND CAME TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS,
Jesus never promised to return, not once.
Seems like you disagree with Jesus or Jesus lied.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Christians believe the same physical body of Jesus returning because that is the Church teaching, but that is never going to happen. Physical bodies do not ascend into the clouds and they do not live in heaven because heaven is a purely spiritual world. The soul of Jesus is in heaven in a spiritual body and there He will stay, at the right hand of God.
Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciple saw a body go up.
It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being who had the Christ Spirit. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, the soul of Jesus that has always existed descended from heaven, by the will of God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree.
sooda
Veteran Member
I agree.
Lots of Christians, particularly in America, are influenced by the Scofield heresy without even knowing it.
Isn't Daniel 9 about Cyrus the Great?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't know.