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Atheists: Supposing God Appeared Before You...

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
For my part, it's my understanding that the gods (well, most of them) are not human and have very alien motivations and natures. I wouldn't expect them to "ask" for anything, much less worship. It would be very odd if they did. Would we expect Storm who passes by our home to ask us to worship it? Of course not, that's silly. Storm just does what Storm does, humans bedamned. :D

I see. Well surely, some really old pagans did offer things to sea to try and get a safe voyage, or sacrifice to the sky to try and get better weather. Or do you think it was more about avoiding what the seer / priest figure predicted as opposed to trying to appease such forces
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I would hope you are aware that your understanding of what "worship" entails and that practiced by actual theists probably do not match up that well. Because for the life of me, I can't figure out what is demeaning about expressions of gratitude, awe, and reverence.
.

Worship is the behavior that slaves show in "thanks" to their masters-- after their minds have been broken to the yoke. Stockholm Syndrome run amok.

So I think I understand it very, very well-- too well-- I was once a worshiper myself... I understand the damage it does to a person's Well Being.

Unearned devotion is inimical to good mental health. Reverence? What does that even mean?

And why? Because this being is so powerful? That's just worshiping power... Might Makes Right. Except that it doesn't.... Might Makes Right is an immoral concept, after all.

Or is it fear? You act with reverence because the being demands it-- and will smite you with curses or death if you don't?

Awe? Well.... again, that's admiration of Power, isn't it?

Gratitude? FOR WHAT? I have never-ever seen anything that gods supposedly did or do, to be grateful for.

Example: A woman's house is spared from a tornado, amidst an entire neighborhood of destruction. She's ... "grateful" and in "awe"... and 100% ignores the death and destruction of her neighbor's homes... that's actually kinda sick, in a sad way.

No-- I maintain my stance: Worship is Unbecoming of A Sentient-- it demeans the one being worshiped just as much as it demeans the worshiper.

I'm guessing you are imagining we do all sorts of silly things like running about naked in the streets in broad daylight flagellating ourselves with whips. Sorry to burst your bubble, but much like the Christians who claim Pagans like me flay and eat babies, that's not really how we work.

No-- I know quite a few self-professed Witches, actually. They have shared their practices and what-not.

The truth is? If I were given a choice between being around Pagans, and being around Christians?

I'd so pick Pagans each and every time-- they have, universally (so far as my experiences go) been quite lovely people. Fun. Kind. Caring, and so forth.

As for eating babies? Well.... I'm an atheist-- in all sincerity, I've been accused of that and much, much worse.... by GodRobots.

In fact, hardly a week goes by without one such accusation from a Genuine Christian™ ...

So, yeah... I get where you're coming from here. But I still maintain that 'worship' is unbecoming of a Sentient.

But. If that's your Schick? You're into Domination and Subservience? Go for it-- just be sure everyone is Of Age, and Nobody is Forced. (just don't ask me to participate-- not that anyone would-- most of these people are actually quite nice in that respect. Again-- in direct contrast to the pushy Genuine Christian™ types....)
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I see. Well surely, some really old pagans did offer things to sea to try and get a safe voyage, or sacrifice to the sky to try and get better weather. Or do you think it was more about avoiding what the seer / priest figure predicted as opposed to trying to appease such forces

I would bet it's a strong combination of both, but mostly it's the preacher who covets POWER over the people, that made these practices so widespread at one point.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Why would they need it? Probably merely as a matter of respect, since they want some recognition for what they can help us with, so that we don't forget them in our history when we set out and go interstellar. I don't really know if they'd be 'egotistical,' to be egotistical, that means you don't measure up to what you say you can do. If they bring the goods, then the ego can be bigger. They can do more and know more


You are painting human characteristics on a god and dictating the mind of a god. It is surprising to an atheist that despite all the calls that the mind of god is unknowable just how often this happens

Egotistical : excessively conceited or absorbed in oneself; self-centred
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
You obviously didn't even read many of the actual replies to this thread by atheists/agnostics. Barely any of them actually "define God" or tried to put him/her/it in a box like you seem to have found so "Amazing." I can point you to posts that specifically do exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. Here are a few:


And the above are actually the majority of serious replies to the OP (meaning things that weren't posted for a laugh or just for fun - not that there is anything wrong with that either) that were in before your post I quoted above.

So, can you provide to me the quotes that support your side of the story here? The posts that are from people trying to describe what God must be and do? There were a couple, to be sure that threw in a few ambiguous "high-level" ideas, but otherwise I'm not seeing it. I honestly see this post of yours as evidence that you are the type of person who HEAVILY sees what you want to see in things - evidence be damned, am I right?

Nope. Every single one of those statements is taken out of the context of the poster who then goes on to describe what s/he thinks God is. Or rather, isn't

Mostly, the texts all seem to follow the one who wrote "I don't think that anything could convince me."

My point is not to claim that there IS a god. I think so, but that's my problem, not yours

My point is that, from where I sit, the non-believers simply don't think that there is any possible evidence that would convince them of the existence of a deity. Shoot, if one DID show up and give proof of his/her/its existence, the response would be a huge moving of the goalposts. ;)

I really like the last quote you used: Any god worth its salt would know how to convince any given human of its existence.

Well, it takes two people to deal with proof, does it not? Doesn't matter how convincing and how incredibly obvious the 'proof' one person offers, if the other guy won't accept it.

Indeed, that statement only works if the idea of free will is completely removed from the equation. Since a great many of us believe that free will exists, then, er....one always has the option of rejecting evidence, no matter how convincing someone ELSE might see it.

In other words, it's not God's fault if the folks He is attempting to prove Himself to are too stubborn to accept that proof. I mean, really...we have flat earthers, young earth creationists, folks who won't allow vaccinations, etc.

Why not people who, if God Himself showed up, would refuse to believe anything?

Same attitude.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Nope. Every single one of those statements is taken out of the context of the poster who then goes on to describe what s/he thinks God is. Or rather, isn't

Mostly, the texts all seem to follow the one who wrote "I don't think that anything could convince me."

My point is not to claim that there IS a god. I think so, but that's my problem, not yours

My point is that, from where I sit, the non-believers simply don't think that there is any possible evidence that would convince them of the existence of a deity. Shoot, if one DID show up and give proof of his/her/its existence, the response would be a huge moving of the goalposts. ;)

I really like the last quote you used: Any god worth its salt would know how to convince any given human of its existence.

Well, it takes two people to deal with proof, does it not? Doesn't matter how convincing and how incredibly obvious the 'proof' one person offers, if the other guy won't accept it.

Indeed, that statement only works if the idea of free will is completely removed from the equation. Since a great many of us believe that free will exists, then, er....one always has the option of rejecting evidence, no matter how convincing someone ELSE might see it.

In other words, it's not God's fault if the folks He is attempting to prove Himself to are too stubborn to accept that proof. I mean, really...we have flat earthers, young earth creationists, folks who won't allow vaccinations, etc.

Why not people who, if God Himself showed up, would refuse to believe anything?

Same attitude.

The god you describe? Isn't much of a god, is it? It's at best a sub-par "god" who is so weak, so inept, that it could not overwhelm the most skeptical human's objections?

Is that about it?

And don't claim "free will" which is BS. Supposedly Angels in Heaven have both Free Will, AND they have absolute KNOWLEDGE of god.

No- the god you describe is either quite inept-- or is maliciously and deliberately being Obtuse--- denying most people what is Needed to be Convincing.

Because make no mistake: your god is a very minor god in the Giant Canvas Of Human Experience.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
And why? Because this being is so powerful? That's just worshiping power... Might Makes Right. Except that it doesn't.... Might Makes Right is an immoral concept, after all.

The beings might be powerful, but if they really do something good here for you and everyone else, then that power and might is good, since it is used for the good.

Gratitude? FOR WHAT? I have never-ever seen anything that gods supposedly did or do, to be grateful for.

Not even a nice sunset or a waterfall or a good meal you had?

Reverence? What does that even mean?

Basically respecting what you're grateful for
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I see. Well surely, some really old pagans did offer things to sea to try and get a safe voyage, or sacrifice to the sky to try and get better weather. Or do you think it was more about avoiding what the seer / priest figure predicted as opposed to trying to appease such forces

Did the gods ask for these things, though?

The concept of sacrifice is one that gets much maligned in modern dialogues, but when we get right down to it, sacrifices are about the concept of reciprocity. Reciprocity is something universal to all human cultures - we implicitly understand relationships are about give and take whether or not it is asked of us. Some call this the "there is no free lunch" philosophy. All things come at cost. For Pagans, it is less of a "the gods demand this sacrifice" or "the gods ask us for this ritual worship" and more of a "it is virtuous to give something in exchange for something else" or "it is virtuous to express gratitude and respect" where virtue reflects on one's own character, not that of the gods. Perhaps a subtle difference to some, but an important one.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Unearned devotion is inimical to good mental health.

What leads you to preface devotion with "unearned?" I understand you had a very bad personal experience so I am guessing this is coming from your past history? What about when devotion is deserved in the eyes of the devotee? I would think it far more inimical to good mental health for people to avoid positive gestures like gratitude. Research seems to agree with me on this - gratitude is well known to have positive benefits for mental health. Thus if there is something in your life you hold in high regard it makes a lot less sense to be a cynical ingrate about it and a lot more sense to say thanks and go "that's awesome" every once and a while.

I suppose the long and the short of it is that while what you say is probably true for you, I think it is very unfair and inaccurate to make a blanket characterization that worship is somehow demeaning or bad. It was bad for you and how you experienced and for that I'm sorry, but when done right it is a way of expressing ourselves positively about the things we value.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Amazing.

Every atheist, agnostic, ignostic, believer or non believer here has pretty much defined who or what God must be, what He must look like, what She must act like, what It must be capable of. Once God is properly defined in the imagination of the ag/ig/atheist or theist, then the possible encounter is scripted...and found to be impossible. There. All done, God doesn't exist so if He showed up in the defined iteration, that would be proof that he didn't, and if he does NOT show up as defined, well, that also would be proof that the experience was "not God,' 'more gravy than of grave'

non believers would not accept any evidence of God...especially objective evidence, since of course they have already decided that there can not be any objective evidence of God. How can there be? He doesn't exist.

Circular indeed, but I've never met an atheist who SAW the circularity of it.

I suggest, humbly, that the non believer stop attempting to put this God he doesn't believe in into a box for comfortable definition. He won't fit there.

Just....be. If God wants' to prove Himself to you, He will.
Sounds like you've got a narrative you're married to, regardless of whether it fits the facts.

I'd love to see the version of this thread you invented that let you come to this conclusion. Doesn't seem to have much resemblance to the real version.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Nope. Every single one of those statements is taken out of the context of the poster who then goes on to describe what s/he thinks God is. Or rather, isn't
This is simply not true. So now you are a liar. Way to go. Second post on my list, for example... the FULL text is:
An omni everything being should have no problems proving his credentials, why put it on the poor sap of limited Intelligence (in godly terms)?
Where is there a description of what god should be in here? All I see is a reference to the idea that whatever "it" is, it should have no problem proving itself.

My point is not to claim that there IS a god. I think so, but that's my problem, not yours
I'm glad you phrased it this way. From where I sit, it is definitely a "problem" and it is definitely "yours."

My point is that, from where I sit, the non-believers simply don't think that there is any possible evidence that would convince them of the existence of a deity. Shoot, if one DID show up and give proof of his/her/its existence, the response would be a huge moving of the goalposts. ;)
This actually gets REALLY easy with what I am about to frame up for you. If something calling itself a "God" presented itself, do you know what we should do if we are at all responsible? Try to figure out whether or not what it is telling us is true. And THIS is the reason that many atheists don't know what would constitute "proof." It's the reason that NO ONE should think they understand what would constitute proof. With the way our senses work, if we are being INTELLECTUALLY HONEST WITH OURSELVES, we have no choice but to accept as standard that you FIRST encounter a thing and ONLY THEN try to figure out what it is and where it fits in our lives.

I really like the last quote you used: Any god worth its salt would know how to convince any given human of its existence.

Well, it takes two people to deal with proof, does it not?
Um... no, it doesn't. Why would you say this? If I go into my backyard ALONE and see deer tracks, does it take ANOTHER PERSON to bounce ideas off of to come to the conclusion that some deer walked through my backyard? Please stop just saying things in a top-of-mind fashion. In other words, I am asking you to please think a little before you speak/write.

Indeed, that statement only works if the idea of free will is completely removed from the equation.
What "statement" are you referring to here? I am confused.

In other words, it's not God's fault if the folks He is attempting to prove Himself to are too stubborn to accept that proof.
Is this you trying to get me to believe that God is actually "TRYING?" He's doing a terribly lousy job of it if He is literally trying to get people to believe. I mean... it's almost as if He's done NOTHING right on that score. I am being dead serious. Look at the track record. It's all there. Failure after failure after failure.

Why not people who, if God Himself showed up, would refuse to believe anything?
Once again... if something "showed up" the only responsible thing to do would be to try and figure out hat it was. Not get down on your knees and start blubbering like an idiot.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The beings might be powerful, but if they really do something good here for you and everyone else, then that power and might is good, since it is used for the good..

If they require worship? NOTHING they do can be pure good-- and it'd not be worth it, either.

The Price would be Too High-- any being requiring worship?

WANTS SOMETHING FROM YOU-- and never in a GOOD way, either!

I would not be surprised to discover they were selling humans as slaves or perhaps dismembering them for body parts or ... worse.



Not even a nice sunset or a waterfall or a good meal you had?.

Those things are inanimate, insentient, and so a different use of that word.

A Logical Fallacy to conflate the two.

Basically respecting what you're grateful for

What an odd thing to say.... you cannot respect that which you are forced to worship...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What leads you to preface devotion with "unearned?" I understand you had a very bad personal experience so I am guessing this is coming from your past history? What about when devotion is deserved in the eyes of the devotee? I would think it far more inimical to good mental health for people to avoid positive gestures like gratitude. Research seems to agree with me on this - gratitude is well known to have positive benefits for mental health. Thus if there is something in your life you hold in high regard it makes a lot less sense to be a cynical ingrate about it and a lot more sense to say thanks and go "that's awesome" every once and a while. .


Now you have gone well beyond the scope of my comments, and are projecting it into an entirely different meaning.


We were talking of Gods and God-like Beings, not ordinary humans. False Analogy to equate the two.

I suppose the long and the short of it is that while what you say is probably true for you, I think it is very unfair and inaccurate to make a blanket characterization that worship is somehow demeaning or bad. It was bad for you and how you experienced and for that I'm sorry, but when done right it is a way of expressing ourselves positively about the things we value.

It is you who has made a blanket characterization-- I was speaking to the OP, and about Gods and God-like beings-- NOT about my fellow humans.

The words take on very different meaning, when speaking of ordinary (real) things.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I agree.
Bet @dianaiad believes omni everything is a description.
Yeah... such a specific "box" to have put God in... sheesh. Obviously, I see the term "omni-everything" and figure that's being used as a stand-in for anything and everything any mono-theist worth their salt is most definitely pushing. I am quite sure that, even given all her protests to usage of terms to describe God, @dianaiad would most definitely answer "yes" to at least 2 of the 3 questions "Is God maximally capable?", "Does God have maximal knowledge?", "Is God present in everything?" Which just means she protests to descriptions of God even if they conform to her descriptions of God. And she wants to call atheists stubborn. Dang.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
...What sort of characteristics would God have to have for you not even to believe in him, but say "I may have just met God"? I mean, I have heard a few atheists say "we would believe in God if there was enough evidence" or "I'll believe in God if I ever see him." So what does that entail?


I have no idea. But I would imagine that an actual god would know exactly what kind of evidence would convince me.

1. Personality characteristics (Is God like a mirror of you? Is God insane like Coyote? Is God like a lover? Or an antagonist?)

Honestly, I see no reason to project any characteristic on such an entity.
Or better said: I see no basis for it. God could be a sadistic douche who created the universe just to make us suffer for his amusement. Or not. How could I possibly evaluate such without having any access to said being?

2. Physical characteristics (Can God look human, or is it required that he have three heads and six wings? For that matter, would your feminist sensibilities only be satisfied if God appeared as a woman? Would you have to see an old man like in paintings?)

Same as above: I have no way to assess this.

3. How God came to you (Is coming in a dream enough? Would you need a near-death experience? Would God need be floating in the sky? Or could God walk down the street and say or do something that would be enough?)

How should I know?

Or would you not believe no matter what?

I like to think I would be rational enough to believe that which is rationally justified to believe.

But I can't tell you what an unfalsifiable, undemonstrable, unsupportable, mysterious, supernatural, unknown,... entity should or would look like.

Nore can I tell you what evidence would be efficient to support the existance of the undefined.


I guess the point is to figure out if there is a consensus image of what atheists would visually accept.

I have on image of god, precisely because I am an atheist.
I am also an atheist, because nobody can present me with a properly defined image of god that even could have any evidence to begin with.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
How you have gone well beyond the scope of my comments, and are projecting it into an entirely different meaning.

We were talking of Gods and God-like Beings, not ordinary humans. False Analogy to equate the two.


I don't understand where you saw in that response an equating of gods to humans? I didn't even use the word human in that post. Or gods, for that matter. o_O

Besides, what difference would that make even if I had done so? Gratitude is gratitude. The practice of giving thanks as an expression of devotion cultivates positive emotions - and thus good mental health - regardless of what the subject of gratitude is. Also, giving thanks cultivates positivity regardless of whether or not some outsider thinks that devotion is warranted.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member

I don't understand where you saw in that response an equating of gods to humans? I didn't even use the word human in that post. Or gods, for that matter. o_O

Besides, what difference would that make even if I had done so? Gratitude is gratitude. The practice of giving thanks as an expression of devotion cultivates positive emotions - and thus good mental health - regardless of what the subject of gratitude is. Also, giving thanks cultivates positivity regardless of whether or not some outsider thinks that devotion is warranted.


We seem to be shooting past one another, and there is clearly a Miss-communication here.

That's okay. As an aside? I played a Druid all through my years playing AD&D. As a result, since I wished to keep my religious beliefs private (back then), I often replied "I'm a Druid" to impertinent personal questions from strangers. Especially to door knockers trying to proselytize their ugly religions. I don't mention this to diminish actual Druids-with-a-capital-D, such as yourself.

I just thought it was amusing. As I have stated elsewhere? I've always had a kind of Respect for Pagans, including Druids. I've never been accosted by Pagans (or Druids), demanding I listen to their "Have You Found Jesus" nor pushing unwanted literature, none of that.

As I age farther and farther from the days of AD&D playing? I've let slip my retort "I'm a Druid".

In fact? The last time pushy so-and-so interrupted my journey with "Have You Found Jesus?"

Was with a, "What? You guys lost him again? Why don't you just put a bell on him or something -- maybe you'll be able to find him on your own, next time!"

This is always greeted with a, "whaaa?" and an open mouth. Giving me the opportunity to walk quickly away before they could accost me with even worse inane silliness.

I may have to return to "I'm a Druid, actually" which always puzzles them, usually rendering them speechless for a bit-- providing a smooth get away.
 
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