New Paradigm
Member
You don't strike me as a happy or pleasant person Terry. None of my post was about my beliefs. You made it an issue and now you are calling me names?
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Did Paul misquote scripture on purpose?
- Thread starter New Paradigm
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You don't strike me as a happy or pleasant person Terry. None of my post was about my beliefs. You made it an issue and now you are calling me names?
The canon is not the problem, and that is a mischaracterization of it. Its a straw argument to begin with.
That's probably not an Ebionite point of view. An Ebionite would not consider righteousness to be a substance which could be earned but a condition to achieve, somewhat like physical strength or mental prowess.
I think righteousness is not a substance but a measure of a person's life, as if they had an angle somewhere between zero and ninety degrees from the ground. Also the NT book Hebrews quotes Hoshea saying that the righteous person lives by faithfulness. A person becomes righteous rather than earning righteousness. They are like a flopped plant that has to stand up and return to a living position, vertical. 'Earning righteousness' is perhaps a statement by poor theologians but is not found in canon. A person might be counted as righteous by having their faults overlooked, and in that case the term 'credit' is used but not in a monetary sense.
You could report it. Action might not happen right away since most moderation is a process, not the instantaneous judgment call of individuals. If you find that someone tends to offend you they can be added to an ignore list in your profile, and you won't have to see their comments. This is to help you to keep your cool and keep on topic. Also you should avoid characterizing people in debates. This also sometimes is moderated as insulting in which case more posts are removed. My post here may be removed for quoting yours if yours is removed.
New Paradigm
Member
I was paraphrasing
New Paradigm
Member
Jesus never used a misquote to build a new doctrine that isn't in the Tanakh. This is the glaring difference between the cases you are sighting and the example I am using. The Tanakh is redundant and clear on the issue of righteousness. It is merited through a persons free will actions. Paul introduced the new idea that righteousness was not merited at all.
Paul said:
“...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in
Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we might be justified by
faith in Christ and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.” Galatians 2:16
“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight...” Romans 3:20
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” Romans 3:28
But Moses said about the law...
“And the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our
God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. Then
it will be righteousness for us, IF we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.” Deuteronomy 6:24,25
And Yeshua said about works...
“Do not marvel at this: for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth--those who have done good, to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to a resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28,29
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them, And they were judged, each one according to his works.” Revelation 20:12,13
“...and my reward is with me, to give to every one according to his work.” Revelation 22:1
Spartan
Well-Known Member
You're wrong about the Old Testament. Righteousness in the OT is by faith in God also.
"Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." - Genesis 15:6
Also, in the OP, it appears you're claiming Paul revised the OT when he wrote, “There is none righteous, no, not one."
What does the OT say? “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;" - Isaiah 64:6
New Paradigm
Member
Regarding Abraham. The Tanakh is clear on why Abraham was considered righteous:
4“I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;5because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.” Gen 26: 4-5
Regarding Isaiah 54, you have again isolated the clear hyperbole. Isaiah was lamenting over the state of Israel which was honoring God with their lips but their actions were against him. Thus he says "all our righteousness has become like filthy rags".
Many Christians (influenced by Paul) use this to prove the silly idea that literally nobody is righteous. It takes a very simple word search to discover that there are NUMEROUS people who God Himself calls righteous in the scriptures due to their actions.
Spartan
Well-Known Member
The works were judged for rewards, not for salvation.
Here is the relationship between faith, works, rewards, and salvation:
I Corinthians 3:11-15:
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
The Full Life Study Bible provides these remarks on the above passage:
"HE WILL SUFFER LOSS: There is a future judgment for believers (I John 4:17) as to the degree of their faithfulness to God and the grace given to them during this life on earth (v.10; 4:2-5; 2 Cor.5:10). In that judgment there is the possibility that a believer, although receiving salvation, may experience great loss (Greek zemloo, meaning 'to suffer loss or damage'). The careless believer is in danger of suffering loss or damage in the following ways: (1) a feeling of shame at Christ's coming (2 Ti. 2:15; 1 John 2:28); (2) loss of his or her life's work for God (vv. 12-15); (3) loss of glory and honor before God (cf. Romans 2:7); (4) loss of opportunity for service and authority in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (5) a low position in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (6) loss of rewards (cf. v. 14-15); and (7) repayment for the wrong done to others (Col. 3:24-25).
"AS ONE ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES": 'Escaping through the flames' is probably an expression meaning 'barely saved.' God will evaluate the quality of life, influence, teaching, and work in the church of each person. If his work is judged unworthy, he will lose his (heavenly) reward, yet he himself will be saved." ( Full Life 1755-56)
Godly works do not result in justification / salvation, but are directed towards the edification of God, and the welfare and salvation of others, and eventually result in some type of heavenly rewards. For those who may have been saved just prior to death (the thief on the cross), there may not be any works to reward, yet their salvation is yet assured. It is my contention that once a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, eventually, if they live long enough, there should be some sort of Godly works in their life (James chapter 2).
Jhn 6:28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jhn 6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Of course, once you believe in Jesus then you're saved by God's grace through faith (but not by works - Ephesians 2:8-9))
Spartan
Well-Known Member
Moses didn't keep all of God's commandments. "Listen, you rebels, shall we get water for you out of this rock?" And Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod. Out came water, and the community and their beasts drank. But God said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust Me enough to affirm My sanctity before the eyes of the Israelites, even so you shall not bring this assembly to the Land that I have given them." (Num. 20:10-12)
New Paradigm
Member
Now let's look at Scripture and take notice of whom God deems most worthy of His benefits of grace, and mercy. Let's start with Noah.
So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:7-9
Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, BECAUSE I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis 7:1
No one else on earth found grace or mercy from God except one man and his family because he was "just" and "righteous"! Contrary to Paul's doctrine, becoming a beneficiary of God's grace has everything to do with works. Grace and works are not mutually exclusive. They are inextricably connected to one another. There is more.
For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Psalm 84:11
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20: 5,6
But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children, to such as keep His covenant, and to those who remember His commandments to do them. Psalm 103 17-18
New Paradigm
Member
Good observation. Correct, Moses didn't keep the law perfectly. Thankfully God doesn't require perfection.
Moses was punished because of this story. How'd you get that God doesn't require perfection?
Because if He did we'd all be doomed, surely. Not everyone can be a tzaddik. Each is held to his own level. I suppose in this discussion 'perfection' is relative to the soul's level.
Maybe so, but how do you get to that conclusion from Moses' story?
I wasn't, I was just making a general comment I suppose. I think the word 'perfection' is a little over-simplified when it comes to this sort of thing. One can't be held accountable for what one couldn't possibly be expected to achieve; so his perfection will be different to someone else's.
sooda
Veteran Member
"Noah" was a king of Sumer hauling livestock, grain and beer down river on barges.
My understanding is that man should strive to be perfect - but just because you're imperfect doesn't mean you can disregard God's commandments without any consequences.
All the more reason to try to embrace them.
Theoretically yes. The Talmud says that there were 4 people who died without sin, so I guess you could describe them as perfect. However, the Talmud also says that the greatest prophet who ever lived was Moses, and he's not one of the four non-sinners, so I guess it depends how one would define greatness.