Straw Man and God

KAT-KAT said:

There's a Hindu temple in my town. Haven't had a chance to research about it yet, though.

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Nice! I think you might benefit from a visit to a UU service as well. There are atheist and theist services there, usually, and their idea of what god is seems similar to yours. That said, the UU god is much less defined than the god of the Bahai faith.

To talk more about the spiritual side of things, Krishna gets a strong response from me. I was thinking of like an older looking version of him being one of showing affection to me. And while I was listening to some Hindu music, I saw a woman of Hindu faith in the comments section express the same. She said something along the lines of: "I am in love with you, Krisha. I can't wait for that marriage of humans to you."

Notice she didn't just say "I love", she said "in love with". Was amazing.

KAT-KAT said:

To talk more about the spiritual side of things, Krishna gets a strong response from me. I was thinking of like an older looking version of him being one of showing affection to me. And while I was listening to some Hindu music, I saw a woman of Hindu faith in the comments section express the same. She said something along the lines of: "I am in love with you, Krisha. I can't wait for that marriage of humans to you."

Notice she didn't just say "I love", she said "in love with". Was amazing.

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I can relate to this experience. But, if I may be so bold, I think it's a mistake to join a religion because of the way it feels.

being a member of a religion means doing it, even when the feeling is lacking.

dybmh said:

I can relate to this experience. But, if I may be so bold, I think it's a mistake to join a religion because of the way it feels.

being a member of a religion means doing it, even when the feeling is lacking.

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I joined my Faith that way

Apart from my lack of understanding of that choice, I find sometimes you just have to dive into the ocean to find a pearl.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I joined my Faith that way

Apart from my lack of understanding of that choice, I find sometimes you just have to dive into the ocean to find a pearl.

Regards Tony

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Different strokes... for different folks

this...



vs... this.

PureX said:

Most religious 'pantheons' come with the understanding that each of the various gods are specified representations of a kind of arch-God concept. The god of the sea, for example, is a representation of divine influence as it relates to the sea. Whereas a god of fertility is a representation of divine influence as it pertains to matters of reproduction. And so on. Pantheons are just multiple representations of a divine 'God-head'. Not dissimilar to the Christian trinity, wherein "Christ" and the "Holy Spirit" are specified representations of God's will, wisdom, and spirit, as manifested (to us) in various ways: both internally, and externally.

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The interesting thing to me about that idea when referring to Christianity is that it would seem then that Satan would be a part of that pantheon. Satan is attributed and often represented when referring to darkness and evil. Does that then mean that Satan is just an extension of god's negative aspects? If not, why did god create him, then? He knew he would bring darkness that would contend, or in some cases, blend with the light.

dybmh said:

Different strokes... for different folks

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That is correct and each has that choice with no compulsion.

Regards Tony

Left Coast said:

I agree! Which means we are therefore resigned to the honest truth of saying, "I don't know."

...

I tend to agree with you that we can't know "the ontological status of the universe itself." And if the answer to a question is unattainable, the rational position is to remain unconvinced of any claim regarding it.

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And here we go again. Even as an atheist and non-believer in any positive ontology, I had faith in humanity. But I couldn't ground it rationality. It can't be done, because there is no way to do that only rationally and/or with evidence. So even then I was irrationally according to your standard. So I checked hard once more and figured out that my faith in humanity grew when I became religious. Even that is irrational.
But here is the problem with your position of only rationality and/or evidence. Neither works in the strong sense, we collectively in the western tradition have tried for over 2000+ years and the answer is found, it can't be done.
Your idea of rationality is an old Greek philosophical idea. It have even be tested by science and it doesn't hold up. At best you can combine rationality with personal feelings or opinions, but brains scan have shown that for morality nobody can avoid personal feelings or opinions.
You want the best for all humans. That is no just rational and/or with evidence. That is also personal feelings or opinions.
You want what is best for you as long as you can get away with it. That is no just rational and/or with evidence. That is also personal feelings or opinions.

I bet you have a morality or even maybe ethics. That is in part personal feelings or opinions. OMG, you are irrational. Well, we all are to a varying degree. You are doing a culturally transmitted idea, which in effect have been falsified by science. Just as you don't have to believe in God, you don't have to believe in your version of rationality. There are other ones, which fits the data better.
You can't avoid relativism, personal feelings or opinions. That is how biological evolution works in humans.
We are in effect derailing. Start a new thread or find other and give me a @, my follow human.

SigurdReginson said:

That said, the UU god is much less defined than the god of the Bahai faith.

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I would enjoy the thoughts you have about what is the complication of defining God, as explained in the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

dybmh said:

I can relate to this experience. But, if I may be so bold, I think it's a mistake to join a religion because of the way it feels.

being a member of a religion means doing it, even when the feeling is lacking.

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True. Though, I need something that's closer to Baha'i than it is Christian Fundamentalism.

dybmh said:

Different strokes... for different folks

View attachment 34711

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Thats the way

“.. Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths...."


That immersion is in any of God's Words.

Regards Tony

SigurdReginson said:

The interesting thing to me about that idea when referring to Christianity is that it would seem then that Satan would be a part of that pantheon. Satan is attributed and often represented when referring to darkness and evil. Does that then mean that Satan is just an extension of god's negative aspects? If not, why did god create him, then? He knew he would bring darkness that would contend, or in some cases, blend with the light.

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Keep in mind that these are representations. And in this instance the "pantheon" is not about representing various external/natural aspects of existing in the world, but representing God's manifestation in the most external, and inexplicable way, to God's manifestation within our own hearts and minds, and the within the hearts and minds of each other. "Satan" represents that inexplicable side of God, as it manifests within us (as the free-will to be selfish, and self-destructive). We don't know why this has to be a part of us, for us to be us, but I think you make an excellent observation about "Satan" being one of those semi-divine representations of the "God-head". Like Jesus (representing god-in-humanity) and the Holy Spirit (God's spirit within us). Or in some folks minds, the Mother Mary (representing the feminine divine), too. I do think that Christians hold onto "Satan" for similar 'representational' reasons.

mikkel_the_dane said:

And here we go again.

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Indeed. I thought I walked you through this and you ended up agreeing with me, but alas.

Even as an atheist and non-believer in any positive ontology, I had faith in humanity. But I couldn't ground it rationality. It can't be done, because there is no way to do that only rationally and/or with evidence. So even then I was irrationally according to your standard.

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Sounds like it. But don't project your past irrationality onto me. I don't have "faith" in humanity. I proportion my confidence in what others are likely to do based on the available evidence (at least, I do my best).

So I checked hard once more and figured out that my faith in humanity grew when I became religious. Even that is irrational.

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So far we agree. You used to be irrational, now you're irrational just in a different way.

But here is the problem with your position of only rationality and/or evidence. Neither works in the strong sense, we collectively in the western tradition have tried for over 2000+ years and the answer is found, it can't be done.
Your idea of rationality is an old Greek philosophical idea. It have even be tested by science and it doesn't hold up.

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The methodology I'm advocating IS science, which employs reason. What are you talking about?

At best you can combine rationality with personal feelings or opinions, but brains scan have shown that for morality nobody can avoid personal feelings or opinions.

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We weren't discussing morality. I made a very basic, straightforward, logical statement. We are confronted by a question, and it has only two possible answers: A and B. We have no evidence for A or B. Therefore, it is rational to believe in either A or B?

You want the best for all humans. That is no just rational and/or with evidence. That is also personal feelings or opinions.
You want what is best for you as long as you can get away with it. That is no just rational and/or with evidence. That is also personal feelings or opinions.

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We've been through this. The goal of moral systems is subjective. How well an action aligns with that goal can be measured objectively. Personal preferences are not inherently rational or irrational things, like preferring chocolate over vanilla. The fact that we have personal preferences does not justify doing things that are irrational.

I bet you have a morality or even maybe ethics. That is in part personal feelings or opinions. OMG, you are irrational.

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Wrong again, see above. Personal preferences, in and of themselves, are not rational or irrational.

Well, we all are to a varying degree. You are doing a culturally transmitted idea, which in effect have been falsified by science.

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I'd love to see how reason was falsified by science. Since demonstrating falsification requires the use of reason.

Just as you don't have to believe in God, you don't have to believe in your version of rationality. There are other ones, which fits the data better.

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What other "versions of rationality" do you think there are? This would be news to all the philosophy professors out there.

You can't avoid relativism, personal feelings or opinions. That is how biological evolution works in humans.

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I agree. That has zero bearing on my original point.

We are in effect derailing. Start a new thread or find other and give me a @, my follow human.

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You may be derailing, I wasn't. If we have no evidence for proposition A or B, we have no rational justification to believe either of them. We should avoid being irrational as much as possible.

KAT-KAT said:

True. Though, I need something that's closer to Baha'i than it is Christian Fundamentalism.

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There is a story BY Sufi Mystics that tells of a journey of one after their lost Love;

You may enjoy the story;

"There was once a lover who had sighed for long years in separation from his beloved, and wasted in the fire of remoteness. From the rule of love, his heart was empty of patience, and his body weary of his spirit; he reckoned life without her as a mockery, and time consumed him away. How many a day he found no rest in longing for her; how many a night the pain of her kept him from sleep; his body was worn to a sigh, his heart’s wound had turned him to a cry of sorrow. He had given a thousand lives for one taste of the cup of her presence, but it availed him not. The doctors knew no cure for him, and companions avoided his company; yea, physicians have no medicine for one sick of love, unless the favor of the beloved one deliver him.
At last, the tree of his longing yielded the fruit of despair, and the fire of his hope fell to ashes. Then one night he could live no more, and he went out of his house and made for the marketplace. On a sudden, a watchman followed after him. He broke into a run, with the watchman following; then other watchmen came together, and barred every passage to the weary one. And the wretched one cried from his heart, and ran here and there, and moaned to himself: “Surely this watchman is Izrá'íl, my angel of death, following so fast upon me; or he is a tyrant of men, seeking to harm me.” His feet carried him on, the one bleeding with the arrow of love, and his heart lamented. Then he came to a garden wall, and with untold pain he scaled it, for it proved very high; and forgetting his life, he threw himself down to the garden.

And there he beheld his beloved with a lamp in her hand, searching for a ring she had lost. When the heart surrendered lover looked on his ravishing love, he drew a great breath and raised up his hands in prayer, crying: “O God! Give Thou glory to the watchman, and riches and long life. For the watchman was Gabriel, guiding this poor one; or he was Isráfil, bringing life to this wretched one!”

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I would enjoy the thoughts you have about what is the complication of defining God, as explained in the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

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Oh, I'm ignorant for sure on that subject. From what I've seen, god as explained by the Bahai faith seems to be inspired by a compilation of the various religious interpretations of god from different religions of the past, but it does seem to be firmly rooted in the Abrahamic idea of what god is. That said, god doesn't seem as strictly confined in a box as ideas on god from other Abrahamic belief systems teach. I can't compare Bahaism with the eastern religions it incorporates since I don't know too much about Hinduism, Buddhism, or Sikhism.

The idea of god in UU seems similar, though more encompassing than what I see in Bahaism. In UU, even pagan ideas of god are accepted and disgussed, where as I'm not so sure people of the Bahai faith would entertain those practices too much. I can't imagine many Bahai folks would take things like the Havamal or Druidry too seriously.

KAT-KAT said:

True. Though, I need something that's closer to Baha'i than it is Christian Fundamentalism.

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Good to know.

julianalexander745 said:

Fair question.

Personally, I think it misses the intrinsic value that deities offer humanity.

God can't be proven/disproven - blah blah blah...

I used to be a brash young atheist until I realized that whether or not God exists in any conceivable form (let alone "hears prayers" in any conceivable form) is not what has ever been remotely important.

Higher powers of all kinds help people get through life and regardless of how totally cooked some of the ideas about God are, if prayer and belief allow people to live better lives for themselves and others, the questions of objectivity and veracity seem suddenly trivial.

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Was reading an essay on Order of the Dawning Sun's Wordpress last night making a highly similar point. Check out these two excerpts.

Psychological Occultism said:

"So, the scientific method and occultism, it works the same way. First you start with the hypothesis of what symbol will aide you in reaching whatever goal it is you hope your self-evolution will yield (self-deification, salvation through Christ, unity with God, simply being the best you can be, etc. ad infinitum). Then, well, you test it out.

If one is Christian, likely the cross is a good symbol to use. Try meditating on it to calm yourself, try focusing on it to support you and give you an extra boost in the day. If it works, hold onto it. If not, discard it.

Another example is the pentagram, a symbol that has gotten around. Generally we associate pentagrams with Satanism these days, but almost every group including Christianity has used it! One of the hardest parts of occultism will be to realize that symbols have completely subjective meanings, don’t let anyone tell you a symbol is evil. If it works for you, use it.

Do this with symbols, with pantheons, create your own meditations, prayers, and rituals. Customize your religion."

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Psychological Occultism said:

"It is time that we stop looking at occultism as evil or outdated, it goes hand in hand with science and psychology and can greatly aid humanity on individual levels as well as aid the species as a whole.

Science deals with the objective; it is the foundation of psychology, which has taught us the value of positive thinking, the power of belief, the usefulness of symbolism. Occultism is, simply, the subjective “science” of manipulating these thoughts, beliefs, symbols, etc. for your own use.

Hopefully with time this change will occur on a greater level, we can first bring ourselves to terms with all our nihilistic fears and eventual stop fighting each other over beliefs that need not even be objectively true to keep their importance. Our beliefs can contradict all we want, the objective science behind them never will."

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Yes!..I have created my own straw..do you not see for who I am be to what I will? It is my OWN straw that you keep talking about like you knew it..but you don’t! Problems were NEVER of my straw..but [inside] your own straws..that you’ve already eaten!..(even though they weren’t yours in the first place).

Straws were drawn all around...

To figure out who’d be eaten...

Ahoy! Ahoy!

Fate selected the youngest...

The shipboy who started crying...

Ahoy!..Ahoy!...

The Problem is not me nor the God whom you (think it) of...The Problem has ALWAYS been...YOU by your straw(s).

Sinncubus-74 said:

Was reading an essay on Order of the Dawning Sun's Wordpress last night making a highly similar point. Check out these two excerpts.

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Yeah, read them.

What about them?

Sinncubus-74 said:

Was reading an essay on Order of the Dawning Sun's Wordpress last night making a highly similar point. Check out these two excerpts.

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Classic Chaos... Love it.