The idea of spirituality that says humans are good

amorphous_constellation · Nov 28, 2019

So when I was young and first read the bible, the driving ideas that I took away were about human nature. It declared that you human, are proud, guilty, shameful, sinful, selfish murderers of the son of god and prophets. Starting wars and turning away from god, always due for contrition. Looking back at it, I see myself as starting from a stark and narrow vision of the human role here

What if we start instead, from the idea that we are innately good. That our worldly interactions are good, that our ambition and enthusiasm does not demand we don the sackcloth of Jonah, that human worldly effort need not come under constant divine scrutiny

Who does not really believe it is that way anyway, who functions in our western society full of shame for pride in their efforts. If one goes through life successfully, they proudly wear the success they accrue, and rightly so. Great people build upon the world, where god says woodworms and moths will eat their worldly works, eroding their babel towers.

If you are good, and what we are doing here is good, then you need not experience a single sigh of contrition. Spirituality becomes magical, open-ended, and expanding to new possibilities.

julianalexander745 · Nov 29, 2019

Humans are good.

wizanda · Nov 29, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
Spirituality becomes magical, open-ended, and expanding to new possibilities.

Without seeing the darkness within our own cup (Matthew 6:22-24), we then drink from the bitterness we give to others (Mark 12:29-31).

If we don't have the wisdom to see what is evil, often we will experiment to cause it; religions, myths & fairytales can create an expected opposite reaction instead.

For every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction; if you say to people be good, some will be naughty just to see...Eventually all will go opposite.

Personally would state we need to teach here is near Hell: where the nature of all things is materialistic, and therefore can be selfish, where it will inherently follow its own desires first, and therefore people need reforming with calculated mathematical psychology (not religiously), to then be a good member of society.

In my opinion.

Augustus · Nov 29, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
What if we start instead, from the idea that we are innately good.

We aren't though. Better to be conscious of our innate flaws than bury our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist.

For us to make the best society we can, it requires us to build around our flaws as they will always manifest themselves over time (on a collective level). They aren't simply 'errors' or 'distortions' of our true nature than can be 'fixed' delivering us unto salvation.

When we think we can transcend them, we get utopianisms and universalisms that tend to cause more harm than good.

ideogenous_mover said:
human worldly effort need not come under constant divine scrutiny

It's not about divine scrutiny, it's about facing reality and learning to live with it.

sooda · Nov 29, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
So when I was young and first read the bible, the driving ideas that I took away were about human nature. It declared that you human, are proud, guilty, shameful, sinful, selfish murderers of the son of god and prophets. Starting wars and turning away from god, always due for contrition. Looking back at it, I see myself as starting from a stark and narrow vision of the human role here

What if we start instead, from the idea that we are innately good. That our worldly interactions are good, that our ambition and enthusiasm does not demand we don the sackcloth of Jonah, that human worldly effort need not come under constant divine scrutiny

Who does not really believe it is that way anyway, who functions in our western society full of shame for pride in their efforts. If one goes through life successfully, they proudly wear the success they accrue, and rightly so. Great people build upon the world, where god says woodworms and moths will eat their worldly works, eroding their babel towers.

If you are good, and what we are doing here is good, then you need not experience a single sigh of contrition. Spirituality becomes magical, open-ended, and expanding to new possibilities.

Christians have a mixed message. Man is created in the image of God, yet is born with a hereditary stain.. Blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin is very primitive.

amorphous_constellation · Nov 29, 2019

Augustus said:
We aren't though. Better to be conscious of our innate flaws than bury our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist.

That's a rather interesting position for someone who lists their religion as 'none.'

Augustus said:
For us to make the best society we can, it requires us to build around our flaws as they will always manifest themselves over time (on a collective level). They aren't simply 'errors' or 'distortions' of our true nature than can be 'fixed' delivering us unto salvation.

And what do you mean by that.

So would you say that the errors or distortions are part of human nature much as religion would?

I think we may be prisoner to many of the inhibitions that religion etches into our souls. I had much to unlearn from when I was a young kid reading the bible, looking for truth. Causing me to feel guilty when interacting with the opposite sex, allowing myself to be walked on since Jesus allowed the same. All because the bible said that what I felt was wrong, that I was thinking of myself to much.

I throw that away and instead take the natural course that I was on before those verses graced my eyes. That ambition is good, doing what feels good is good, and I am good.

amorphous_constellation · Nov 29, 2019

sooda said:
Christians have a mixed message. Man is created in the image of God, yet is born with a hereditary stain.. Blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin is very primitive.

If a man does evil, then he turns from the good that he originally is. Why should he be stained with a flaw from the beginning?

amorphous_constellation · Nov 29, 2019

wizanda said:
For every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction; if you say to people be good, some will be naughty just to see...Eventually all will go opposite.

Seems to me that this is just an assumption

julianalexander745 · Nov 29, 2019

Augustus said:
We aren't though. Better to be conscious of our innate flaws than bury our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist.

For us to make the best society we can, it requires us to build around our flaws as they will always manifest themselves over time (on a collective level). They aren't simply 'errors' or 'distortions' of our true nature than can be 'fixed' delivering us unto salvation.

When we think we can transcend them, we get utopianisms and universalisms that tend to cause more harm than good.

It's not about divine scrutiny, it's about facing reality and learning to live with it.

That's a rather grim interpretation of reality though.

The reality is that we are just a bunch of mammalian primates who evolved a spectacular capacity to utilize our frontal lobes.

I think you're setting the bar way too high for humanity.

julianalexander745 · Nov 29, 2019

Seems like the only people who don't like humans are:

- Climate change enthusiasts
- Racists
- The violently religious
- Involuntary celibates
- Feminists
- Angry loners
- The unemployable
- Kangaroo Feathers

Augustus · Nov 29, 2019

julianalexander745 said:
That's a rather grim interpretation of reality though.

The reality is that we are just a bunch of mammalian primates who evolved a spectacular capacity to utilize our frontal lobes.

The reality is we are an unusually violent bunch of mammalian primates. All of human history confirms this.

We can be kind, altruistic and benevolent of course, but these are no more our 'true' nature than the violence, greed and selfishness.

What makes you think we are innately good?

julianalexander745 said:
I think you're setting the bar way too high for humanity.

I seem to be setting it far lower than you do.

julianalexander745 · Nov 29, 2019

Augustus said:
The reality is we are an unusually violent bunch of mammalian primates. All of human history confirms this.

We can be kind, altruistic and benevolent of course, but these are no more our 'true' nature than the violence, greed and selfishness.

What makes you think we are innately good?

Unusually violent? Have you ever seen anything by David Attenborough?

What it boils down to is whether you believe the human experience in all it's beauty, glory, achievement, pain, suffering, heartbreak, drudgery and drama is something worthwhile or not.

I choose to believe that it is. I'd rather not entertain willful depression as an alternative.

I seem to be setting it far lower than you do.

How do you figure? I think we're doing great.

Augustus · Nov 29, 2019

julianalexander745 said:
Unusually violent? Have you ever seen anything by David Attenborough?

Which animals would you say are more violent than us?

As well as food and defence, we kill for fun, for power, for resources, for sex, for the challenge, for ideas, etc.
(we, as in humans collectively, not necessarily any given individual)

julianalexander745 said:
What it boils down to is whether you believe the human experience in all it's beauty, glory, achievement, pain, suffering, heartbreak, drudgery and drama is something worthwhile or not.

I choose to believe that it is. I'd rather not entertain willful depression as an alternative.

Who says anything about life not being worthwhile or wilful depression?

Just because you don't subscribe to some sunshine and buttercups fantasy about the innate goodness of humanity doesn't mean you have to spend the nights weeping on the floor.

Humans are what they are: some are good, some are bad and most are somewhere in between. If we want to make the best world we can then we have to deal with this reality.

Ensuring your maximum happiness requires you not being a sucker.

julianalexander745 said:
How do you figure? I think we're doing great.

What do you think a high bar is??

julianalexander745 · Nov 29, 2019

Augustus said:
What do you think a high bar is??

A high standard.

julianalexander745 · Nov 29, 2019

Augustus said:
Just because you don't subscribe to some sunshine and buttercups fantasy about the innate goodness of humanity doesn't mean you have to spend the nights weeping on the floor.

Humans are what they are: some are good, some are bad and most are somewhere in between. If we want to make the best world we can then we have to deal with this reality.

Ensuring your maximum happiness requires you not being a sucker.

You'll get no argument out of me here.

julianalexander745 · Nov 29, 2019

Augustus said:
Which animals would you say are more violent than us?

As well as food and defence, we kill for fun, for power, for resources, for sex, for the challenge, for ideas, etc.
(we, as in humans collectively, not necessarily any given individual)

That delves very far into the subjective.

Piranhas and wasps don't kill for ideas but I'd argue that they're shockingly violent.

Wasps do things that, in my opinion, go far beyond the stuff that went on in WW2.

Alone · Dec 1, 2019

Just food for thought here I don't really have an opinion on this topic, the son of God himself said that he was not good that only God was good Mathew 19:17

Trailblazer · Dec 2, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
If a man does evil, then he turns from the good that he originally is. Why should he be stained with a flaw from the beginning?

He isn't. Original sin is a doctrine of the Church, not something that ever happened.
Humans are born good but we have free will, so if we choose to do evil we become evil.

Heyo · Dec 3, 2019

julianalexander745 said:
Humans are good.

Most humans are good, most of the time.

sojourner · Dec 5, 2019

Augustus said:
We aren't though

That’s not what Genesis says. Or Pelagius, for that matter. Augustine did the Christian family a world of hurt in couching us as inherently sinful.

The idea of spirituality that says humans are good

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