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Problems with 'man' aspect of either trinity, or demigod[Jesus Believers only

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Colossians 1:15-16 New International Version (NIV)
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

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The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

That's the Lord Jesus Christ, isn't it?
He is the Son of the invisible God
He is the firstborn over all what is created.
Therefore Jesus is different from God.

For in him all things were created: all things have been created through him and for him.

Everything was created through him
Everything was created for him

So who did the creation?
The Lord Almighty God, Jesus was in God's mind when God created
Hence the Lord God created everything through the name of Jesus
The Lord Almighty God created everything for Jesus.

Typical Jehovah's Witnesses cult spiel.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
JESUS MUST BE JEHOVAH!!
Typical Jehovah's Witnesses cult spiel.

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Sorry but you are fond of using the word Jehovah, not me.

Now going back to the topic.

Jesus Christ knows everything
God knows everything
Therefore Jesus Christ is God

Really?
Does Jesus Christ know "everything"?
As in "everything"?

Let us ask Jesus Christ himself which is recorded in the Bible:

Matthew 24:36 New International Version (NIV)
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The Day of Judgement, the day when the Son of Man will be sent for the second time
is being referred to in the above verse

The angels in heaven do not know when it will be
The Lord Jesus Christ, the Son does not know when it will be

Only the Father knows
Who then is God?
It is the Father

 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
source.gif


Sorry but you are fond of using the word Jehovah, not me.

Now going back to the topic.

Jesus Christ knows everything
God knows everything
Therefore Jesus Christ is God

Really?
Does Jesus Christ know "everything"?
As in "everything"?

Let us ask Jesus Christ himself which is recorded in the Bible:

Matthew 24:36 New International Version (NIV)
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The Day of Judgement, the day when the Son of Man will be sent for the second time
is being referred to in the above verse

The angels in heaven do not know when it will be
The Lord Jesus Christ, the Son does not know when it will be

Only the Father knows
Who then is God?
It is the Father

You need a lot of help understanding that Jesus is God.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
You need a lot of help understanding that Jesus is God.

As a former Catholic - born from Catholic parents
Educated from Catholic schools, it is just normal and usual that
I had that former "understanding" that Jesus is God.
But I realized that "understanding" was not knowledge based on the Bible.
I realized that it was not in the Bible.
Jesus never claimed he was God but taught who was God - his Father.
The apostles never preached that Jesus is God but the apostles preached Jesus is a man.
And if one is a man, he is not God.

But going back to the scriptures and the discussion.
Let us this "understanding" analogy

God is the Savior/Rock
Jesus is the Savior/Rock
Ergo Jesus is God???


giphy.gif


Let us check the Bible why that wasn't right:

Acts 5:31 New International Version (NIV)
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

God raised Jesus to his own right hand - that alone suggest God is different from Jesus
God is the one who exalts [raised]
Jesus is the one who was exalted [raised]

as what?

Jesus was exalted as Prince and Savior
That is why Jesus is Savior
God made Jesus as Savior

Acts 13:23 New International Version (NIV)
“From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.


God is very different from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and these are recorded in the Bible
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
As a former Catholic - born from Catholic parents
Educated from Catholic schools, it is just normal and usual that
I had that former "understanding" that Jesus is God.
But I realized that "understanding" was not knowledge based on the Bible.
I realized that it was not in the Bible.
Jesus never claimed he was God but taught who was God - his Father.
The apostles never preached that Jesus is God but the apostles preached Jesus is a man.
And if one is a man, he is not God.

But going back to the scriptures and the discussion.
Let us this "understanding" analogy

God is the Savior/Rock
Jesus is the Savior/Rock
Ergo Jesus is God???


giphy.gif


Let us check the Bible why that wasn't right:

Acts 5:31 New International Version (NIV)
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

God raised Jesus to his own right hand - that alone suggest God is different from Jesus
God is the one who exalts [raised]
Jesus is the one who was exalted [raised]

as what?

Jesus was exalted as Prince and Savior
That is why Jesus is Savior
God made Jesus as Savior

Acts 13:23 New International Version (NIV)
“From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.


God is very different from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and these are recorded in the Bible

According to your theology, when was Jesus created? Did he exist before he was born in Bethelehem? If so, who was he before?
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
According to your theology, when was Jesus created? Did he exist before he was born in Bethelehem? If so, who was he before?

According to your theology, when was Jesus created?

My theology?
I believe what is written in the Bible is what theology is.
We should not add or remove anything from it.
We should not make assumptions, suppositions and wrong conclusions.
The Bible and the words therein are the words of the Almighty God and should not be subjected to any private interpretations whatsoever.
If we need clarity, another translation with a much simpler worded version ought to be used if ever needed.

Matthew 1:18-25 New International Version (NIV)

This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.



But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”


All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).


When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.


THE_CREATION_OF_MAN_4000px.jpg



Did he exist before he was born in Bethlehem?


If your question is with regards to his physical existence, I have to say NO.

If your question is with regards to his spiritual existence, again I have to say NO.

If your question is with regards to the plan of God about Jesus then we have to read this in the Bible, not from anyone’s naughty conclusions


John 1:1-3


Moffatt(i) 1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. 2 He was with God in the very beginning: 3 through him all existence came into being, no existence came into being apart from him.

Logos (UK: /ˈloʊɡɒs, ˈlɒɡɒs/, US: /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Ancient Greek: λόγος, romanized: lógos; from λέγω, légō, lit. 'I say') is a term in Western philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion derived from a Greek word variously meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", and "discourse". It became a technical term in Western philosophy beginning with Heraclitus (c.  535 – c.  475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.
Logos - Wikipedia


If so, who was he before?


Christ is Christ.


Hebrews 13:8 King James Version (KJV)



Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


Now your question is about who was Christ before he became man? I have to say, he was the God's promised savior.

Acts 13:23 New International Version (NIV)

“From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

The Logos [the Word] which is the plan of God about Christ. God always had Christ in mind, in every creation, in every event which Israel experienced and what the prophets wrote.

John 5:39 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

You carefully study the Scriptures. You think that they give you eternal life. These same Scriptures tell about me!

Did he have a pre-existence? None.
But Christ was already mentioned in the Scriptures even before he was born.
He was mentioned even before Abraham was born.
He is the reason why everything in universe was created by the Almighty God.

Colossians 1:16 Expanded Bible (EXB)
·Through his power [L In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; L thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; C these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
According to your theology, when was Jesus created?

My theology?
I believe what is written in the Bible is what theology is.
We should not add or remove anything from it.
We should not make assumptions, suppositions and wrong conclusions.
The Bible and the words therein are the words of the Almighty God and should not be subjected to any private interpretations whatsoever.
If we need clarity, another translation with a much simpler worded version ought to be used if ever needed.

Matthew 1:18-25 New International Version (NIV)

This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.



But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”


All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).


When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.


THE_CREATION_OF_MAN_4000px.jpg



Did he exist before he was born in Bethlehem?


If your question is with regards to his physical existence, I have to say NO.

If your question is with regards to his spiritual existence, again I have to say NO.

If your question is with regards to the plan of God about Jesus then we have to read this in the Bible, not from anyone’s naughty conclusions


John 1:1-3


Moffatt(i) 1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. 2 He was with God in the very beginning: 3 through him all existence came into being, no existence came into being apart from him.

Logos (UK: /ˈloʊɡɒs, ˈlɒɡɒs/, US: /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Ancient Greek: λόγος, romanized: lógos; from λέγω, légō, lit. 'I say') is a term in Western philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion derived from a Greek word variously meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", and "discourse". It became a technical term in Western philosophy beginning with Heraclitus (c.  535 – c.  475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.
Logos - Wikipedia


If so, who was he before?


Christ is Christ.


Hebrews 13:8 King James Version (KJV)



Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


Now your question is about who was Christ before he became man? I have to say, he was the God's promised savior.

Acts 13:23 New International Version (NIV)

“From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

The Logos [the Word] which is the plan of God about Christ. God always had Christ in mind, in every creation, in every event which Israel experienced and what the prophets wrote.

John 5:39 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

You carefully study the Scriptures. You think that they give you eternal life. These same Scriptures tell about me!

Did he have a pre-existence? None.
But Christ was already mentioned in the Scriptures even before he was born.
He was mentioned even before Abraham was born.
He is the reason why everything in universe was created by the Almighty God.

Colossians 1:16 Expanded Bible (EXB)
·Through his power [L In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; L thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; C these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ.

Tsk tsk.

Before Abraham was born, I AM. - John 8:58
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Tsk tsk.

Before Abraham was born, I AM. - John 8:58

Was Abraham the first human being created by God?
Abraham wasn't.
So a couple of people did live before Abraham was born.
And these people aren't Gods but men / human from Adam to Terah.

What is the meaning why Jesus Christ said in:

John 8:58 New International Version (NIV)

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

He said before Abraham was born, I am!
I am! - what?
It ends there, doesn't it?
I am! - what????

Jesus said before Abraham was born, I am!
Therefore Jesus existed before Abraham
Conclusion: Jesus is God????


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How about one of the angels? one of the living creatures in heaven? one of the 24 elders in heaven?

upload_2019-11-28_16-41-56.jpeg


I bet they all existed before Abraham was born.
Was that the real meaning of what Jesus said?
I existed, alive and kicking even before Abraham was born???

Let us go back to what Jesus said:

John 5:39 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

You carefully study the Scriptures. You think that they give you eternal life. These same Scriptures tell about me!


Is there by chance in the Scriptures that something about Jesus was mentioned before Abraham who could be read in Genesis 11?
I believe there is.
And this is written in:

Genesis 3:15 New International Version (NIV)
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”


upload_2019-11-28_16-32-39.jpeg


These words were said by God to Satan after
God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden
The offspring of the woman is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ
God has foretold that Christ will be victorious over the devil [he will crush your head]
and Satan could manage an insignificant damage [you will strike his heel]

Aren't the words written about Jesus?
And aren't these words mentioned by God even before Abraham was born?
Truly Jesus was confirming the truth -“before Abraham was born, I am!” These same Scriptures tell about me!
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Sorry, Flores, Jesus is God. I gave you many convincing proofs from scripture. Don't bother trying to counter. I know better.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Sorry, Flores, Jesus is God. I gave you many convincing proofs from scripture. Don't bother trying to counter. I know better.

giphy.gif


Jesus was never God
Never is and never will be
And to those people who believe
Jesus is God what is their status?
Do they really know better?
Are they better of when Judgement day comes?

From the Scriptures:

2 John 7 Common English Bible (CEB)

Many deceivers have gone into the world who do not confess that Jesus Christ came as a human being. This kind of person is the deceiver and the antichrist.


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