Hell, a decommissioned scarecrow ?

Hockeycowboy · Nov 22, 2019

whirlingmerc said:
In Matthew Jesus said it twice, even bookending part of a discussion to underscore the importance.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Yes, I know. Keep in mind, though, that according to Revelation 20:13-14, death is hurled into the Lake of Fire.
Can you burn death? No...it’s not a tangible thing. But it will be “no more”, as Revelation 21:3-4 tells us.

Fire can be symbolic for meaning something is completely destroyed, as death will be.

And understanding fire as symbolic, meshes well with God’s quality of love.

Aupmanyav · Nov 22, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
.. no wonder many have turned away from religion!

No, I have not turned away from my religion. I have turned away from heaven, hell and rebirth. I am still a strong orthodox Hindu. Hinduism allows people to hold different views.

URAVIP2ME · Nov 22, 2019

pcarl said:
But if you insist on a literal hell fire, I hear its a 'dry heat'.
Yet we dare to hope that all human beings are ultimately saved because of the immensity and power of divine love.

Since there is No forgiveness for the un-forgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 then all are Not saved (delivered/ rescued).
This is why Matthew 20:28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all.

No literal hell fire in Scripture.
As with dead Adam there is No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy, just sleep in death - John 11:11-14

URAVIP2ME · Nov 22, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
No, I have not turned away from my religion. I have turned away from heaven, hell and rebirth. I am still a strong orthodox Hindu. Hinduism has alternate theories.

I'm pleased to read that ^above^ you have Not turned away from Earth.
True, the Bible speaks about Heaven (God's home) and Hell ( biblical hell being the grave for the sleeping dead )
and in place of rebirth is resurrection.
Many are taught resurrection is resurrection to Heaven, whereas the Bible speaks more of an 'earthly resurrection'.
As Jesus resurrected his dead friend back to healthy physical life, that was giving us a preview, or a coming attraction, of what Jesus is going to do on a grand-global scale during his coming 1,000-year rule over Earth.
Future resurrection because Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection....
Also, if you have Not turned your back on Earth, you may be surprised that the Bible speaks about the time when Jesus comes there will be living people on Earth who can remain alive on Earth to be part of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth and have the opportunity to live forever on Earth in perfect health.

URAVIP2ME · Nov 22, 2019

pcarl said:
This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there......

I find No Scripture saying Jesus descended to hell as Savior, please post______________
I find that 'after ' Jesus was made alive in his spirit body ( that was ' after ' his God resurrected Jesus out of hell.)
Then, according to 1 Peter 3:18-19 resurrected spirit Jesus went to the 'spirits' (Not in hell. but in prison.)
2 Peter 2:4-5 that 'prison' is Not any hell but tartarus - Jude 1:6
Jesus declared God's message Not to people, but to those fallen angels imprisoned in tartarus.

URAVIP2ME · Nov 22, 2019

whirlingmerc said:
In Matthew Jesus said it twice, even bookending part of a discussion to underscore the importance.
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Since fire is often a symbol or stands for destruction, then the everlasting or eternal fire is: destruction.
The cursed are wicked ones, and as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be 'destroyed forever'.
We are told to repent if we do not wish to 'perish' ( perish means destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
Please notice where the devil ends up as per Revelation 21:8 but in ' second death ' (No resurrection possible )
Jesus will destroy Satan as per Hebrews 2:14 B, so 'fire' in Matthew 25:41 stands for eternal destruction.

YoursTrue · Nov 22, 2019

whirlingmerc said:
In Matthew Jesus said it twice, even bookending part of a discussion to underscore the importance.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

May I ask your understanding of Revelation 20:3, which says, - "and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time." (American Standard Version) Verse 2 speaks that one cast into the abyss is none other than Satan the Devil.

Aupmanyav · Nov 22, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
1. I'm pleased to read that ^above^ you have Not turned away from Earth.
2. True, the Bible speaks about Heaven (God's home) and Hell ( biblical hell being the grave for the sleeping dead )
and in place of rebirth is resurrection.
3. As Jesus resurrected his dead friend back to healthy physical life, that was giving us a preview, or a coming attraction, of what Jesus is going to do on a grand-global scale during his coming 1,000-year rule over Earth.
4. Future resurrection because Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection....
5. Also, if you have Not turned your back on Earth, you may be surprised that the Bible speaks about the time when Jesus comes there will be living people on Earth who can remain alive on Earth to be part of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth and have the opportunity to live forever on Earth in perfect health.

1. In the view that I believe, there is no difference between Earth and me. I am the Earth, I am the Universe and all things contained in it. And there is none other than me. That is Hindu non-duality - Advaita.
2. Hindus do not sleep in graves. In the view I follow, I change form to appear in billions of other things, living and non-living. I am omnipresent.
3. That is a nice story, either his friend was not really and completely dead or the story is false. If Jesus was a historical person, he is long dead, and would not appear again except in peoples' dreams. And no one has ever ruled the whole world. That again is a dream that probably Kublai Khan or Genghis had.
4. This world is a world of chaos, uncertainty and probability. All predictions are just ravings.
5. Evolution has not designed humans to live for 1000 years. Don't sell me snake-oil. I expect sensible talk in discussions.

pearl · Nov 23, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
This is why Matthew 20:28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all

URAVIP2ME said:
This is why Matthew 20:28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all.

Many does not mean that some are excluded, but is a Semitism designating the collectivity who benefit from the service of the one, and is equivalent to “all.”

"This is my Blood, the Blood of the Covenant, which is shed for many" (Mark 14:24, cf. Matt. 26:28).

according to Luke and St. Paul he said "for you"

pearl · Nov 23, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
I find No Scripture saying Jesus descended to hell as Savior,

He descended to hell and preached the 'Good News'. Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

URAVIP2ME said:
( that was ' after ' his God resurrected Jesus out of hell.)

And why the Church refers to it as 'the Passover of the Lord'.

whirlingmerc · Nov 23, 2019

YoursTrue said:
May I ask your understanding of Revelation 20:3, which says, - "and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time." (American Standard Version) Verse 2 speaks that one cast into the abyss is none other than Satan the Devil.

Not going to be dogmatic about it, and I will respect other Christian views taken in in good conscience on this but I would say

- the lake of fire is a place of finality (the beast and false prophet are already thrown there by Rev 20:3)
- the abyss is a temporary place of extreme restraint not a final place
- during the millenium (I will lean pre millennial) man does not have a tempter and even in the most ideal conditions some will oppose God
- at the end will be final judgement and the lake of fire for Satan and those who follow

As I said this is somewhat a pre millennial view and I will respect other views held in good conscience like an a millennial view but I lean pre mill on this (but not pre trip).

I do not see it as annihilation for several reasons. The beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire and the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of the ages. Eternal suffering and arterial life are the same words for eternal.

It is more important to live by the power of the spirit than know know the schedule in many respects
as per Acts 1:7-9
and I do believe in the priesthood of believers where people are accountable for their conscience before God and respect the conscience of others in points we disagree

ChristineM · Nov 23, 2019

Hell, a decommissioned scarecrow

My life today has been full of coincidence with parallels in two other threads and now a third.

Early(ish) this morning i was popping out to the supermarket, it was still dark but just beginning to lighten. It's a 50km round trip, in some places passing through farm land. I swerved to avoid a figure lying half on the road and half on the grass verge. I stopped, walked back and said "Hell, a decommissioned scarecrow"

URAVIP2ME · Nov 24, 2019

YoursTrue said:
May I ask your understanding of Revelation 20:3, which says, - "and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time." (American Standard Version) Verse 2 speaks that one cast into the abyss is none other than Satan the Devil.

Yes, the 'him' is Satan.
And I would like to bring to your attention to Luke 8:31 because 'they' (the demons) kept entreating him (Jesus) Not to order them to the abyss. ( Isaiah 24:21-2 2)
The abyss is like a prisoner in a dungeon. Satan and his demons will be there non-functioning for 1,000 years.
In other words, completely removed from any contact with anyone: meaning relief fro mankind.

URAVIP2ME · Nov 24, 2019

whirlingmerc said:
- the lake of fire is a place of finality (the beast and false prophet are already thrown there by Rev 20:3)
- the abyss is a temporary place of extreme restraint not a final place
- during the millenium (I will lean pre millennial) man does not have a tempter and even in the most ideal conditions some will oppose God
- at the end will be final judgement and the lake of fire for Satan and those who follow
As I said this is somewhat a pre millennial view and I will respect other views held in good conscience like an a millennial view but I lean pre mill on this (but not pre trip).
I do not see it as annihilation for several reasons. The beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire and the smoke of their torment goes up .........

I find the ' smoke ' from Edom (Idumea) goes up forever according to Isaiah 34:10 .
Thus, 'smoke' stands for: gone forever. Edom No longer exists.
Also, I find there is a definition for the lake of fire found at Revelation 20:14
There the lake is defined as ' second death '. Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8; 2:11
In death there is No consciousness - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Jeremiah 51:57
Right, the abyss is temporary (for 1,000 years)
The destroying of Satan by Jesus is permanent - Hebrews 2:14 B
Since the 'wicked are destroyed forever' then I see annihilation - Psalms 92:7
The choice at 2 Peter 3:9 is 'repent' or 'perish' (be destroyed)

URAVIP2ME · Nov 24, 2019

pcarl said:
Many does not mean that some are excluded, but is a Semitism designating the collectivity who benefit from the service of the one, and is equivalent to “all.”
"This is my Blood, the Blood of the Covenant, which is shed for many" (Mark 14:24, cf. Matt. 26:28).
Yes, Jesus paid for ALL (1 John 1:7)
And as Matthew 20:28 wrote that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all. Not all follow Jesus.
Any thoughts about the two roads and where they lead as found at Matthew 7:13_______
I find at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 Jesus comes with ' executional words ' to rid the earth of the wicked.
The wicked are destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7 /- Douay Psalms 91:7 destined for: eternal destruction.
Then, the wicked are excluded.

URAVIP2ME · Nov 24, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
1. In the view that I believe, there is no difference between Earth and me. I am the Earth, I am the Universe and all things contained in it. And there is none other than me. That is Hindu non-duality - Advaita.
2. Hindus do not sleep in graves. ..................................
4. This world is a world of chaos, uncertainty and probability. All predictions are just ravings.
5. Evolution has not designed humans to live for 1000 years. Don't sell me snake-oil. I expect sensible talk in discussions.

I find Adam and Eve might have bought the idea of Not sleeping in the graves perhaps thinking they could break God's Law and continue to live forever on Earth.
Yes, as 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 says the world is a world of chaos today, etc.
Right, evolution has Not designed humans to live for 1,000 years.
To me that is because unlike some lower-life forms: humans did Not evolve.
To me it is sensible that the world chaos is leading up to fulfiling 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
The 'powers that be' will be saying, "Peace and Security..." but that will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.

Aupmanyav · Nov 24, 2019

Why, then, your DNA matches so closely with that of a chimp (or langur)?

When is that (the great tribulation) to come? Jesus told his disciple that it will come in their life-time. Scarecrow and a dangling carrot.
Nothing special, all religions, all societies, do it. It is the standard line. Jesus was not the first to say so.

YoursTrue · Nov 24, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, the 'him' is Satan.
And I would like to bring to your attention to Luke 8:31 because 'they' (the demons) kept entreating him (Jesus) Not to order them to the abyss. ( Isaiah 24:21-2 2)
The abyss is like a prisoner in a dungeon. Satan and his demons will be there non-functioning for 1,000 years.
In other words, completely removed from any contact with anyone: meaning relief fro mankind.

Which explains that Satan and the demons are imprisoned -- so they cannot disturb or mislead mankind. Thank you.

YoursTrue · Nov 24, 2019

whirlingmerc said:
Not going to be dogmatic about it, and I will respect other Christian views taken in in good conscience on this but I would say

- the lake of fire is a place of finality (the beast and false prophet are already thrown there by Rev 20:3)
- the abyss is a temporary place of extreme restraint not a final place
- during the millenium (I will lean pre millennial) man does not have a tempter and even in the most ideal conditions some will oppose God
- at the end will be final judgement and the lake of fire for Satan and those who follow

As I said this is somewhat a pre millennial view and I will respect other views held in good conscience like an a millennial view but I lean pre mill on this (but not pre trip).

I do not see it as annihilation for several reasons. The beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire and the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of the ages. Eternal suffering and arterial life are the same words for eternal.

It is more important to live by the power of the spirit than know know the schedule in many respects
as per Acts 1:7-9
and I do believe in the priesthood of believers where people are accountable for their conscience before God and respect the conscience of others in points we disagree

OK, I have not read all posts, so excuse me if I wonder what you mean when you say you will lean "pre millennial." One of the reasons why I brought up about the abyss is because Satan and his demons will be unable to reach mankind during that time. Thus, when they are later finally put out of commission with those who supported them and have been judged finally, they will be absolutely abolished. Also, like smoke, anyone who gets near it smells it and for their own sake turn away from it. The smoke is not literal but it is a reminder to stay away from the evil corruption of the devil and his followers.

whirlingmerc · Nov 24, 2019

YoursTrue said:
OK, I have not read all posts, so excuse me if I wonder what you mean when you say you will lean "pre millennial." One of the reasons why I brought up about the abyss is because Satan and his demons will be unable to reach mankind during that time. Thus, when they are later finally put out of commission with those who supported them and have been judged finally, they will be absolutely abolished. Also, like smoke, anyone who gets near it smells it and for their own sake turn away from it. The smoke is not literal but it is a reminder to stay away from the evil corruption of the devil and his followers.

A Pre millenial view says there is some golden age of Jesus reigning more literally on earth before a final rebellion and final judgement

An A millennium view says Jesus is reigning now spiritually

A post millennial view is things get better in the long run ushering in the kingdom

I respectfully lean pre millennial.
I do think people in good conscience might see these things a bit differently.

Hell, a decommissioned scarecrow ?

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