Proselytizing: What is it and is it a good or bad thing?

Aupmanyav · Aug 12, 2019

Vinayaka, when we take vows, it only applies to us. It does not make a God or Goddess a party to that. Fulfilling the desires of a devotee still is the prerogative of the deity and may be dependent on the behavior and action of that devotee and so many other things. I do not think there is a covenant like that in Abrahamic religions in Hinduism (or it could be pointed out to me) which puts a deity under any obligation - sort of 'if you do that, then I will do this'.
"Worship me and go t heaven, do not worship me burn in eternal hell)

Aupmanyav · Aug 12, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
Moreover, Hindus consider daughters a form of the Mother Goddess. In many regions, a girl is referred as 'Mother', ('ma').

When 'Durga Puja' comes, one would find even the high and mighty worshiping girls.

Yogi Adityanath, Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh, largest state in India with a population of 230 million people, performing 'Kanchak Puja' (also 'Kumari Puja'), washing the feet of girls. Prime Minister, Narendra Modi will subsist only on fruits during the nine days of Durga Puja, and I will not get any non-veg. food.
"Kumari Pujan" - Google Search, kanchak Kanjak puja - Google Search

Dawnofhope · Aug 13, 2019

9-10ths_Penguin said:
.... like those racks in hotel lobbies with brochures about local attractions.

Those racks of brochures are also a sales tool.

That’s definitely not considered teaching in the Baha’i Faith. Teaching in the Baha’i Faith is a heart to heart relationship between two people who both wish to better understand the spiritual nature of this life and want to learn from each other. So how a Baha’i pioneer may teach his friends and associates (who seeks the spiritual path) as would any Baha’i in any locality.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Yet I can't say I've ever met a proselytizer who was ready to abandon faith in their god and join me in atheism.

I haven’t met a proselytising atheist who wishes to join me in theism either.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
There will always be varying degrees of capacity to explain one’s beliefs and experiences with another. You seem to have very high expectations of others in this regard.

I have high regard for the capacity of humans not seek and know truth as I do in their capacity to share their experiences with others.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
If someone was proselytising to me I’d take a different approach.

As would I.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
How would you proselytize without mentioning your faith?

Proselytising can be covert, manipulative and deceptive, can it not?

Dawnofhope · Aug 13, 2019

pcarl said:
There are some points shared between Hindu's and Christians. In a dialogue with ecumenical Christians
discussed the hiddenness of God as it is understood in the Hindu text Bhagavad Gita and the Christian classic the Mystical Theology of Dionysius the Areopagite, the hiddenness of God from the perspective of Vaishnava Hinduism, with the assertion that the Great Secret of the Hindu sacred text is the passionate love that God has for his creatures and the longing God has of receiving a return of this love. God's relationship to the world—a relationship that is presented to the world in hiddenness—is the occasion of very real pain and sorrow. This concealment of God, which is similarly expressed in the Christian mystical tradition, produces in humans a yearning for ever greater disclosure and, ultimately, union.
While not a covenant in the sense of the Abrahamic, I would think it nonetheless a distinct relationship of commitment to God.

I believe the people of the Hindu Faith are often very spiritual. That is best expressed in their personal qualities of love, compassion and understanding. The culture of the Indian people seems very different from the West yet the emphasis on family, friends, education and service are values we share.

Muffled · Aug 13, 2019

I believe (notice the adherence to RF rules) it is the attempt to recruit a person into your religious group. I consider conversion to be just that but I know a lot of people don't like that so may be it gets lumped in with proselytizing. I believe if preaching is not proselytizing it should be ok since it is after all part of what RF is about. Informing others of what you believe. A Christian has absolutely no choice because we are under the command of God to preach the Gospel. It would be like RF attempting to get us to deny our faith in God.

Muffled · Aug 13, 2019

Eddi said:
I think there is a time and place for proselytising

Just not on these forums, I am glad there is a rule against it here

Personally, I find it annoying. If I was interested I would ask

I believe it would be alright if the person were willing to debate. I am sure we could shoot holes in it and have some fun discussing it. However a person just coming on and pretending they have the right way and there is no debate, would not be productive in my opinion and a waste of time.

Muffled · Aug 13, 2019

SomeRandom said:
It’s annoying
You found your religion. Great. Try converting me to something more beneficial. Like a new brand of whisky/bourbon/brandy I haven’t had yet. Or I dunno, a better supplier of geek merch than I use now or something. I mean honestly. Something useful.

I believe usefulness is a variable thing. For instance I don't need tools for fixing a car because I don't have the skill to use them. Someone once gave me a recipe for chocolate chocolate chip cookies and I added raisins experimentally to make a "Chunky" cookie, since I like the candy bar so well. That was useful.

SomeRandom · Aug 13, 2019

Muffled said:
I believe usefulness is a variable thing. For instance I don't need tools for fixing a car because I don't have the skill to use them. Someone once gave me a recipe for chocolate chocolate chip cookies and I added raisins experimentally to make a "Chunky" cookie, since I like the candy bar so well. That was useful.

I believe in privacy. I’m a very private person and religion is a very personal affair. So when a door knocker comes, I inform them I’m about to sacrifice a goat to Satan.

I’m kidding of course. I only ever use lambs.

9-10ths_Penguin · Aug 14, 2019

adrian009 said:
That’s definitely not considered teaching in the Baha’i Faith. Teaching in the Baha’i Faith is a heart to heart relationship between two people who both wish to better understand the spiritual nature of this life and want to learn from each other. So how a Baha’i pioneer may teach his friends and associates (who seeks the spiritual path) as would any Baha’i in any locality.

If the end goal is to have the person become a Baha'i, I would still consider it proselytizing.

I haven’t met a proselytising atheist who wishes to join me in theism either.

"Proselytizing atheist?" What would that even mean?

Personally, if I was to describe my belief system, I'd say that I'm a skeptic, a secular humanist, and a freethinker. I only "proselytize" in the sense that I encourage people to have a good grounding in reason and evidence for their beliefs about the natural world, and I advocate for the rights and inherent worth of all people.

... and I don't see anything wrong with this. Do you? Odds are you probably agree with most of my "atheist proselytizing."

Proselytising can be covert, manipulative and deceptive, can it not?

Ah - that's where you're going. I thought you were alluding to the old St. Francis of Assisi quote ("Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.")... or a Baha'i version of it.

od19g6 · Nov 20, 2019

adrian009 said:
Proselytizing can mean different things to different people. Some people may feel a duty to proselytize as part of their faith. Others may use the word in a pejorative way to criticise others who 'teach' their faith to others while insisting on being above whatever they perceive the word to mean.

So what is proselytising? To me it means trying to convert people from one religion or worldview to another. Personally I wouldn't try to convert anyone to my religion, but if someone had questions about my faith or were interested to learn I would certainly help them. If someone wanted to join my religion, if I believed they were sincere and understood what my faith was about, I would certainly assist them in their journey to become part of the worldwide community of my faith. So none of this I would consider proselytizing. I would avoid any manipulation, coercion or deception which certainly runs contrary to the truthfulness and trsutworthiness that is at the foundation of any genuine religion.

Proselytizing on religious forum is against the rules btw. Some of you may be aware of rule 8:

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.

RF Rules

I've certainly experienced a great deal of proselytizing during my time on RF and have been accused of it myself.

So what is proselytizing to you and is it a good or bad thing.

Hi.

I was redirected here by the link you sent to me because you wanted to let me know that proselytizing is not allowed on the forum.

This may be a tricky thing because it is not my intention to try to force someone into conversion, only God can convert someone.

I'm just responding to the questions the others asks me a giving the message of Baha'u'llah.

You know I don't really go on forums much and I seldom get to talk to people about spirituality / religion so I found this to be a good place.

I don't look at it as merely Preaching / proselytizing, I view it as helping and walking with people on their quest for truths, because I'm trying to find truths as well.

Hockeycowboy · Nov 21, 2019

Well, Jesus did it...but he never forced anyone. He did berate the Pharisees’ views, because they “skinned” the common people. Matthew 9:36.

Jesus considered the Pharisees’ teachings as vain worship. (Matthew 15:9) Nobody would want to basically waste their time on that!

But Jesus’ statements were ‘refreshing’. Matthew 11:28-30

Dawnofhope · Nov 21, 2019

od19g6 said:
Hi.

I was redirected here by the link you sent to me because you wanted to let me know that proselytizing is not allowed on the forum.

This may be a tricky thing because it is not my intention to try to force someone into conversion, only God can convert someone.

I'm just responding to the questions the others asks me a giving the message of Baha'u'llah.

You know I don't really go on forums much and I seldom get to talk to people about spirituality / religion so I found this to be a good place.

I don't look at it as merely Preaching / proselytizing, I view it as helping and walking with people on their quest for truths, because I'm trying to find truths as well.

Thank you for dropping by. I think it is excellent to have another Baha’i join the religious forum discussion group. It is good to hear you see this as being a place where you can learn truths. The mission statement for RF:

As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.

RF Rules

I’ve been active on the forum for about 3 years and a moderator for nearly a year. I’ve noticed a problem for many here including some Baha’is can be an understanding of what proselytising is and isn’t.

A dictionary definition of the word is clear:

convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

https://www.google.co.nz/search?sou...46i131j0i131j46i131i275j46j46i275.rVcLtLiSdgo

Dawnofhope · Nov 21, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Well, Jesus did it...but he never forced anyone. He did berate the Pharisees’ views, because they “skinned” the common people. Matthew 9:36.

Jesus considered the Pharisees’ teachings as vain worship. (Matthew 15:9) Nobody would want to basically waste their time on that!

But Jesus’ statements were ‘refreshing’. Matthew 11:28-30

I suspect if Jesus was on RF making a few of the statements He did a couple of thousand years ago (eg John 14:6) He would soon be moderated for proselytising.

Hockeycowboy · Nov 21, 2019

adrian009 said:
I suspect if Jesus was on RF making a few of the statements He did a couple of thousand years ago (eg John 14:6) He would soon be moderated for proselytising.

Yeah, no doubt! Lol!

And he said, “Go....make disciples.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
(Y’all would’ve canceled his membership. Just kiddin’. Only after 4 warnings.)

But for Christians, that’s what we are supposed to do.

Vinayaka · Nov 21, 2019

od19g6 said:
Hi.

I was redirected here by the link you sent to me because you wanted to let me know that proselytizing is not allowed on the forum.

This may be a tricky thing because it is not my intention to try to force someone into conversion, only God can convert someone.

I'm just responding to the questions the others asks me a giving the message of Baha'u'llah.

You know I don't really go on forums much and I seldom get to talk to people about spirituality / religion so I found this to be a good place.

I don't look at it as merely Preaching / proselytizing, I view it as helping and walking with people on their quest for truths, because I'm trying to find truths as well.

Problems arise when it is your view only that is considered. With proselytizing there are two sides. Yours, and the other guy(s) whom you're proselytizing at. Surely they get a say in the matter. However, most proselytizers seem blind to that right ... freedom from religion.

I'm one of the most adamant critics of proselytizing you'll find on this forum, and that's the main reason. Much proselytizing is done totally uninvited or in subtle ways, such as hiding behind 'debate forums' just to 'discuss' their POV. It's sneaky and subtle. It's also arrogant, saying you have something to offer, without thinking the other person may have something to offer you, and often attacks folk whom you have absolutely no idea of their religious view.

It's particularly difficult for those of us, like me, who belong to a faith where proselytizing is condemned rather than encouraged. That's reflected in how many Hindus are on this forum, compared to how many Bahais. In real life we outnumber you by 500 to 1, yet here you outnumber us.

PoetPhilosopher · Nov 21, 2019

I have more hands on experience with someone trying to Disciple me, which to me, is like a harsher form of prosetylizing. And Discipleship was bad for my health.

Vinayaka · Nov 21, 2019

AT-AT said:
I have more hands on experience with someone trying to Disciple me, which to me, is like a harsher form of prosetylizing. And Discipleship was bad for my health.

What does 'Discipled' mean?

PoetPhilosopher · Nov 21, 2019

Vinayaka said:
What does 'Discipled' mean?

I suppose it depends on who you ask.

It's when a more experienced in theology religious person decides they want to train you up in their views, sometimes offering a reward at the end of it all to keep you going, like being admitted into the group or a position of leadership in the faith.

od19g6 · Nov 21, 2019

Vinayaka said:
Problems arise when it is your view only that is considered. With proselytizing there are two sides. Yours, and the other guy(s) whom you're proselytizing at. Surely they get a say in the matter. However, most proselytizers seem blind to that right ... freedom from religion.

I'm one of the most adamant critics of proselytizing you'll find on this forum, and that's the main reason. Much proselytizing is done totally uninvited or in subtle ways, such as hiding behind 'debate forums' just to 'discuss' their POV. It's sneaky and subtle. It's also arrogant, saying you have something to offer, without thinking the other person may have something to offer you, and often attacks folk whom you have absolutely no idea of their religious view.

It's particularly difficult for those of us, like me, who belong to a faith where proselytizing is condemned rather than encouraged. That's reflected in how many Hindus are on this forum, compared to how many Bahais. In real life we outnumber you by 500 to 1, yet here you outnumber us.

It's all about sharing views because we can all have something to learn from each other.

Proselytizing is not even in my category, you can not and shouldn't try to convert no one, only God can do that.

I hope that most of us are here to find information and truth.

I don't really consider myself that much of a good writer but I do the best I can.

Polymath257 · Nov 21, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Yeah, no doubt! Lol!

And he said, “Go....make disciples.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
(Y’all would’ve canceled his membership. Just kiddin’. Only after 4 warnings.)

But for Christians, that’s what we are supposed to do.

And there are places to do so.

Not on RF.

Proselytizing: What is it and is it a good or bad thing?

Be your own guru

Be your own guru

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Jesus in me

Jesus in me

Jesus in me

Still learning to be wise

1/10 Subway Stalinist

Member

Witness for Jehovah

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Witness for Jehovah

devotee

Veteran Member

devotee

Veteran Member

Member

Think & Care