IMHO: Debate on "God exists (not)" is not sensible

stvdv · Nov 13, 2019

IMHO: Debate on "God exists (not)" is not sensible

*) To say "God exists", means you know God 'fully' and have a proper definition of God

*) He who makes a claim has to provide the evidence

1) Scientific person MUST provide evidence to claim "God exists not"
2) Spiritual person MUST provide evidence to claim "God exists"

3) Scientific person CLAIMS "Lack of believe in God" = Has no evidence God exists (not)
4) Spiritual person CLAIMS "God is beyond human understanding" = Human can't prove

* Some might say: "The Bible says so. Thus we have proof."
My reply would be "Is the Bible the word of God, or the word of Man?"
IF it's the word of God THEN "God proved it, not human", thus "human can't prove"
IF it's the word of Man THEN "Bible proves nothing"

Heyo · Nov 13, 2019

stvdv said:
IMHO: Debate on "God exists (not)" is not sensible

*) To say "God exists", means you know God 'fully' and have a proper definition of God

To know god "fully" would be an unfair burden for the theists. Compare it to Dark Matter. We know next to nothing about it, only that there is a substance that interacts gravitationally but is by all other means invisible.
Having said that, theists usually don't have any indication that there is "something", even less so any evidence for any supposed property.

SalixIncendium · Nov 13, 2019

stvdv said:
IMHO: Debate on "God exists (not)" is not sensible

*) To say "God exists", means you know God 'fully' and have a proper definition of God

*) He who makes a claim has to provide the evidence

1) Scientific person MUST provide evidence to claim "God exists not"
2) Spiritual person MUST provide evidence to claim "God exists"

3) Scientific person CLAIMS "Lack of believe in God" = Has no evidence God exists (not)
4) Spiritual person CLAIMS "God is beyond human understanding" = Human can't prove

* Some might say: "The Bible says so. Thus we have proof."
My reply would be "Is the Bible the word of God, or the word of Man?"
IF it's the word of God THEN "God proved it, not human", thus "human can't prove"
IF it's the word of Man THEN "Bible proves nothing"

While I like the argument, people have different concepts of God. If one considers God to be a transcendent being separate from him/herself, the argument from either side isn't sensible or rational, in my opinion. However, if one considers God to be immanent, vis-a-vis, "I am God," then it could be a rational/sensible argument. But...

Another thought. Do you have proof that you exist? I'm not looking to steer this thread off topic; philosophers have considered this for ages, and it's work considering in this debate.

ChristineM · Nov 13, 2019

Its all down to a person's threshold for what constitutes evidence.

While one will say "the bible says so so its good enough for me"
And another will say "just look at the wonders in this world, they can only be the work of (a) god"

Others will say "there are no verses written by (a) god in any holy book, it follows the books were written by man"
Or "scientific endeavour shows how rocks formed, how trees grow, why continents move, no god required"

ChristineM · Nov 13, 2019

SalixIncendium said:
While I like the argument, people have different concepts of God. If one considers God to be a transcendent being separate from him/herself, the argument from either side isn't sensible or rational, in my opinion. However, if one considers God to be immanent, vis-a-vis, "I am God," then it could be a rational/sensible argument. But...

Another thought. Do you have proof that you exist? I'm not looking to steer this thread off topic; philosophers have considered this for ages, and it's work considering in this debate.

I think therefore i am but i cannot prove you exist, despite the evidence on RF

SalixIncendium · Nov 13, 2019

ChristineM said:
I think therefore i am but i cannot prove you exist, despite the evidence on RF

So when one achieves state of samadhi, one ceases to exist?

In other words, does one cease to exist once they stop thinking?

Please just consider these, rather than responding and possibly derailing the thread. If you wish to pursue this discourse, let me know and I'll create a new thread.

syo · Nov 13, 2019

stvdv said:
you know God 'fully'

Fully??? What's this??

stvdv · Nov 19, 2019

Heyo said:
To know god "fully" would be an unfair burden for the theists. Compare it to Dark Matter. We know next to nothing about it, only that there is a substance that interacts gravitationally but is by all other means invisible.
Having said that, theists usually don't have any indication that there is "something", even less so any evidence for any supposed property.

Heyo said:
To know god "fully" would be an unfair burden for the theists.

I would not go that far, to say "it would be an unfair burden for the theists".

Quite a few Theists go that far to "claim" that "God exists" AND "their way is the High Way" thereby they create "their Own Unfair Burden" IMO.

IMHO: A "smart" Theist will never make a claim on "God" or "God related topics". Afterall it is called "their belief" ... which is not defined as "a fact"

stvdv · Nov 19, 2019

SalixIncendium said:
While I like the argument, people have different concepts of God. If one considers God to be a transcendent being separate from him/herself, the argument from either side isn't sensible or rational, in my opinion.

Yes, that was my thought too.

SalixIncendium said:
However, if one considers God to be immanent, vis-a-vis, "I am God," then it could be a rational/sensible argument. But...

As long as "one considers" one still does not know. Still a belief. So still not sensible to make the claim "God exists (not)"

SalixIncendium said:
Another thought. Do you have proof that you exist? I'm not looking to steer this thread off topic; philosophers have considered this for ages, and it's work considering in this debate.

First step is "stop going outside"
Next step automatically happens

No thoughts/proof needed

stvdv · Nov 19, 2019

syo said:
Fully??? What's this??

Exactly! Hence I rather not claim "God exists (not)"

stvdv · Nov 19, 2019

ChristineM said:
Its all down to a person's threshold for what constitutes evidence.

While one will say "the bible says so so its good enough for me"
And another will say "just look at the wonders in this world, they can only be the work of (a) god"

Others will say "there are no verses written by (a) god in any holy book, it follows the books were written by man"
Or "scientific endeavour shows how rocks formed, how trees grow, why continents move, no god required"

Well said. It's so nice to be 100% sure, and make claims, but mostly I find out that it was just "my opinion", no fact at all; no need I make a claim.

Saint Frankenstein · Nov 19, 2019

I don't see the point of debating it except as a philosophical exercise, as it won't change anyone's beliefs. It's like debating over whether someone really feels love for someone else. Real conversion happens within.

Heyo · Nov 19, 2019

Saint Frankenstein said:
I don't see the point of debating it except as a philosophical exercise, as it won't change anyone's beliefs. It's like debating over whether someone really feels love for someone else. Real conversion happens within.

The point in debating the existence of gods is so long philosophical as the believers don't draw conclusions regarding the real world from their belief. The moment you want your belief to influence laws or give you privileges, you'd better show that your belief has substance.

Milton Platt · Nov 19, 2019

Heyo said:
To know god "fully" would be an unfair burden for the theists. Compare it to Dark Matter. We know next to nothing about it, only that there is a substance that interacts gravitationally but is by all other means invisible.
Having said that, theists usually don't have any indication that there is "something", even less so any evidence for any supposed property.

Bad comparison.
We can measure the effects of dark matter and even quantify it to a degree. Can you do the same for a god?

Heyo · Nov 19, 2019

Milton Platt said:
Bad comparison.
We can measure the effects of dark matter and even quantify it to a degree. Can you do the same for a god?

No, and I stated so in the second paragraph. The comparison is only good for countering the request that the believers have to "know god fully". We don't know Dark Mater fully, but we know it exists. Therefore it is unfair to demand full knowledge from the believers.

Milton Platt · Nov 19, 2019

Heyo said:
No, and I stated so in the second paragraph. The comparison is only good for countering the request that the believers have to "know god fully". We don't know Dark Mater fully, but we know it exists. Therefore it is unfair to demand full knowledge from the believers.

I understand. But it is fair to demand enough knowledge to determine the truth of the mater. If the level of evidence was as good for a god as for dark matter, there would not be so much debate.

Firemorphic · Nov 20, 2019

Obviously an atheist's semantic assumptions would be different (which is what makes such a statement inherently ironic) but God DOESN'T exist (which is exactly why I am a Theist and reject Atheism wholeheartedly).
This is what makes God....God. If God existed, then God would be creation. Existing and Existence is an expression of and from God. This is why we have the words "Creator" and "Creation", to make a distinction between the Eternal and the Finite, the Nonexistent and the Existent, between God and The Universe.

IMHO: Debate on "God exists (not)" is not sensible

Debate on "God exists (not)" is:

Sensible

Not sensible

stvdv

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Heyo

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SalixIncendium

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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.

SalixIncendium

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syo

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stvdv

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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

stvdv

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stvdv

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Saint Frankenstein

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Heyo

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Milton Platt

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Heyo

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Milton Platt

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Firemorphic

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