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Christians - How do you ‘watch and pray’ for Christ’s Return

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I think though that everyone agrees that there is benefit in praying "The Lords prayer." Many people begin communal prayers with this spoken out loud. Since it pronounces a shared experience and yearning it can draw people together.
Matthew 6:7-9 In praying, don’t use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. (8) Therefore don’t be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him. (9) Pray like this:..

Yeshua wasn't giving a mandate for vain repetition of the Lord's prayer, to read out slowly, and boringly with no dynamics by billions; the way we read the Lord's prayer at school, and in congregations, put me off reading the Bible until 24.

People coming together in the name of the Lord, create the presence of God among them (Matthew 18:20).

The same as when questioned that we shouldn't meditate upon an answer (Mark 13:11); the same applies within prayer, if we allow the Holy Spirit to Guide the congregations feelings, the prayers sentiments becomes the Living Word, by the Spirit being the one uttering it.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You are respectfully fully entitled to your opinion but I believe what I believe just as you believe what you believe and I believe that the priest is worshipped above God in this day instead of the Lord
So, now you double-down on your dishonesty. Lying, as you have done, is the opposite of Jesus' Truth.

That if Jesus returned and the pope said He hadn’t returned the masses would turn to the pope and not humbly enquire of the truth, And I believe this has come to pass.
So, when did Jesus supposedly return? evidence?

All I’m saying as a former catholic is that I believe a grave error has been made by following the man made interpretations of religious leaders and that He has already appeared and come and gone but like the Jews they still await.
See above.

God knows I speak the truth and that’s all that matters.
Again, your "bearing false witness", spouting religious bigotry, and using stereotypes is not what Truth is. If your church teaches you that these are compatible with Jesus' Truth, then let me recommend that you seek out a church that doesn't teach such depravity. My church teaches us that using these disingenuous tactics is morally wrong, but it appears that yours doesn't. Either that, or maybe the problem is just of your own creation.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
So Christ is not a good thief :) A thief that everybody sees :)

Also let's hope no one is asleep and it is night time. Wouldn't want those material peepers to miss out on such a special display of might and power.

Regards Tony
"Like a thief in the night" just means He will come swiftly and surprisingly. Everyone will witness the return of Christ. There will be no missing it or mistaking it for something else.

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." - Revelation 1:7
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So, now you double-down on your dishonesty. Lying, as you have done, is the opposite of Jesus' Truth.

So, when did Jesus supposedly return? evidence?

See above.

Again, your "bearing false witness", spouting religious bigotry, and using stereotypes is not what Truth is. If your church teaches you that these are compatible with Jesus' Truth, then let me recommend that you seek out a church that doesn't teach such depravity. My church teaches us that using these disingenuous tactics is morally wrong, but it appears that yours doesn't. Either that, or maybe the problem is just of your own creation.

What is the proof Jesus is Who He said He was as the Pharisees and Sadducees knew their scriptures very well and didn’t recognise Him yet simple fishermen believed in Him. So it is proven by this example of the disciples that scriptural learning and knowledge does not automatically lead to recognise Jesus and the same with His Second Coming.

What did Jesus say were the qualifications to see God? He said the pure in heart shall see God’ not the intellectually enlightened. So it was that simple fishermen knew Him yet the most learned in the scriptures did not.

Today recognition of His return depends upon hearts that are pure not upon earthly or scriptural knowledge.

John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I know His Voice and followed Him when He returned. If my crime be that I accepted Jesus when He returned again in the Glory of the Father then indeed I am the most guilty of people.

When He came He commanded the pope to follow Him and also addressed the bishops, priests and Christians in most beautiful Tablets calling them to enter the kingdom of the Father. I have responded ‘Yes, my Lord’ and entered.

His Tablet to the pope and Christians are freely available if you require a link to them.Read what He says for yourself.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What is the proof Jesus is Who He said He was as the Pharisees and Sadducees knew their scriptures very well and didn’t recognise Him yet simple fishermen believed in Him. So it is proven by this example of the disciples that scriptural learning and knowledge does not automatically lead to recognise Jesus and the same with His Second Coming.

What did Jesus say were the qualifications to see God? He said the pure in heart shall see God’ not the intellectually enlightened. So it was that simple fishermen knew Him yet the most learned in the scriptures did not.

Today recognition of His return depends upon hearts that are pure not upon earthly or scriptural knowledge.

John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I know His Voice and followed Him when He returned. If my crime be that I accepted Jesus when He returned again in the Glory of the Father then indeed I am the most guilty of people.

When He came He commanded the pope to follow Him and also addressed the bishops, priests and Christians in most beautiful Tablets calling them to enter the kingdom of the Father. I have responded ‘Yes, my Lord’ and entered.

His Tablet to the pope and Christians are freely available if you require a link to them.Read what He says for yourself.
You didn't answer my question.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Today recognition of His return depends upon hearts that are pure not upon earthly or scriptural knowledge.

John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Unfortunately, we do need to verify Baha'i claims with Scriptures. But maybe they are misunderstood. So how do Baha'is interpret these. If Jesus, or "Christ", has already returned, then... Who were these false Messiahs? Who was the "abomination" standing in the Holy place? When did the "great distress happen? That if it weren't cut short, no one would have survived? Then again false messiahs and prophets are mentioned. Who were these guys? Then Jesus says that when he comes it will be as obvious and as visible as "lighting".
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come...
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people...
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation, ’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The majority of the earths inhabitants follows one of These Suns of Truth in Buddha, Krishna, Christ, Muhammad or Moses and a few - Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah. These are the Ones whom billions of people worldwide model their daily lives upon.

Charlatans and frauds don’t command the respect and devotion of billions of people. worldwide that the Manifestations of God do and neither is their influence on civilisation anywhere near as comparable.
Catholics are probably the biggest Christian denomination I'd imagine. Yet, you kind of imply that they follow the Pope and Priests and not Jesus? So is the Catholic Church a "fraud"? Yet, has millions of followers? In fact if you do believe that, you wouldn't be alone. Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church because they thought they were not following Jesus and the truth of the Bible.

But what about the Protestants? TV evangelists and "spiritual" healers? Most denominations believe in the resurrection and return of Jesus and that Jesus is God. Are those preachers frauds? Or, just totally and completely mistaken? Yet, they have millions of followers.

Baha'is say the Umayyads and the Abbasids are the beasts and the dragons of Revelation. Does that make them false? I don't see how you could say they aren't. Yet, they have millions of followers.

But really, "millions" of people model their lives on these "Suns of Truth" or they just go through the motions of following their religion? Even Baha'is, do all model their life on the teachings of Baha'u'llah, or are Baha'is in name only? And, speaking of name only, or should I say in signed declaration card only, many are counted as being Baha'i and don't attend meetings, don't participate in anything, and many can't be found. But, I'd imagine all religions are counting people that aren't really actively participating in the religion.

Oh, and The Bab still has followers? People that follow him and haven't joined the Baha'i Faith? Or, is it a virtually dead and obsolete religion?
 
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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
In all three explanations (Mark 13:5-6, Matthew 24:4-5, Luke 21:8), we have the deception by falsified "I Am" statements first...

The Gospel of John repeatedly uses falsified "Ego I-mee" (G1473 G1510) statements, in bad grammatical Greek sentences.

We can show Baha'i is false as it quotes from the false Gospel of John, and doesn't notice Yeshua warns about it.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
We're speaking on lightning.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore also be ready, for in an hour that you don’t expect, the Son of Man will come.

Matthew 24:50 the lord of that servant will come in a day when he doesn’t expect it, and in an hour when he doesn’t know it.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not talking about our day and age..but yet still future from us..

The second coming of Christ Jesus,, We all shall be changed from this flesh and blood to that of the Spirit...

This is everyone who is a live upon the whole earth..

But if your still of flesh and blood at the second coming of Christ Jesus,, Then that is not the real Jesus Christ..but the AntiChrist (Satan) masquerading by deception to deceive the whole world into believing that he is the real Christ Jesus.
But he is an imposter.

You wait for an event that has happened. One can choose not to be of the flesh anytime.

There are many posters on RF from many Faiths that understand we are a flesh body with spiritual choices.

It is when those choices become our thought and our actions that we are born again and not of the flesh.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Like a thief in the night" just means He will come swiftly and surprisingly. Everyone will witness the return of Christ. There will be no missing it or mistaking it for something else.

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." - Revelation 1:7

Clouds are vapours that rise and obscure the sun from shining. Thus clouds are veils that prevent us seeing the full potential of the Sun.

They are the clouds Christ comes upon, they are not a chariot.

Thus Christ will return when the clouds of doctrine have blinded Christians from seeing the true Christ. Many will be called, a few will be chosen. Then the first will be last and the last (non Christian) will be first.

This is how it has happened. Every eye has seen the day of God unfold, but every mind is yet to connect the world we see today, with Christ's Message as the Father, the Glory of God.

Regards Tony
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Clouds are vapours that rise and obscure the sun from shining. Thus clouds are veils that prevent us seeing the full potential of the Sun.

They are the clouds Christ comes upon, they are not a chariot.

Thus Christ will return when the clouds of doctrine have blinded Christians from seeing the true Christ. Many will be called, a few will be chosen. Then the first will be last and the last (non Christian) will be first.

This is how it has happened. Every eye has seen the day of God unfold, but every mind is yet to connect the world we see today, with Christ's Message as the Father, the Glory of God.

Regards Tony
Wow, talk about leaps of imagination! I've never seen such a tortured explanation. o_O
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wow, talk about leaps of imagination! I've never seen such a tortured explanation. o_O

Thus an explanation based on reason is tortuous but the common miracle based explanation is not?

christ_coming_clouds.jpg


There are many that would consider the picture is the tourtued view of Christ.

Personally I see it insults Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But what about the Protestants? TV evangelists and "spiritual" healers? Most denominations believe in the resurrection and return of Jesus and that Jesus is God. Are those preachers frauds? Or, just totally and completely mistaken? Yet, they have millions of followers.

These are personal questions you are asking aloud. I wish you well with all your decisions you can choose to make on your questions.

The vast majority of people are not frauds, they are following what they see is right. It is their personal journey to which as a Baha'i, I wish them all the best and much happiness. I do not see anyone as a fraud, as we are asked to find the Light in all people.

That does not mean there are no frauds, as there are some who know what they are after and use Faiths to gain for themselves, again it is for us to personally decide upon these matters and look also for the Light that shines from them

As a Christian we are told to remove the plank from our eye before we remove a splinter from another's eye.

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Unfortunately, we do need to verify Baha'i claims with Scriptures. But maybe they are misunderstood. So how do Baha'is interpret these. If Jesus, or "Christ", has already returned, then... Who were these false Messiahs? Who was the "abomination" standing in the Holy place? When did the "great distress happen? That if it weren't cut short, no one would have survived? Then again false messiahs and prophets are mentioned. Who were these guys? Then Jesus says that when he comes it will be as obvious and as visible as "lighting".
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come...
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people...
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation, ’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:23

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Yes this I believe is referring to the 40,000 sects of Christianity. Not to get involved in sectarianism but to remain as one undivided Faith. Next it is saying that if they are saying ‘ here is ‘Christ’ they will be false when He returns as He will return with a ‘new name’.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

So the name of the new Jérusalem , the new religion and the name of its followers will only be known to them who ‘overcometh’ pass the test of sincerity and a pure heart for Jesus said the ‘blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God’ and to see God is to recognise His Manifestation when He appears. That is what I believe.

I personally believe the false prophets Christ speaks of has more to do with religious leaders because it was the leaders of religion who had Him crucified. And if you look at the persecution of the Bab and Baha’u’llah again it was the religious leaders who refused to look into the truth. In this day it is the religious leaders telling their congregations that Christ hasn’t returned when He has. Will these leaders even tell their followers to investigate the claims of Baha’u’llah? Remember Baha’u’llah offered to perform any miracle for the priests if they put in writing that they would accept Him once He performed it? And they all backed right off frightened that He really was Who He said He was - the Promised One.

So the false prophets I believe are those telling their congregations Christ has not returned and not to investigate the claims of Baha’u’llah. I was listening to a sermon of a priest the other day and He was telling his congregation to ignore anyone claiming to be the messiah. But Christ said to ‘watch and pray ‘. To watch is to also investigate not simply ignore.

As to Daniel. Abdul-Baha explains it in Some Answered Questions or there is Thief in the Night. I would just have to post it here which is a bit long so maybe you can read it for yourself.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I’d prefer this thread in general debates as it is a topic not confined to only Christians but moderators please feel most welcome to move it if you wish.
Christ said to ‘watch and pray’ for His Return.
My understanding is He said this so that His Second Coming would not be missed.

How will you know from your own watching and praying whether He has returned or not? Or will you rely on scholars, priests ministers and clergy or the pope to inform you?

I think Jesus left a couple of clues. To know the difference between a true Prophet and a false Prophet He said that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, that He who testifies that Jesus came in the flesh is of God and also that whatsoever things are of good report to think on these things.

There have been wars and rumours of wars throughout the centuries after Jesus ascension. There was the Crusades, the Inquisition and holy wars so how do you know which wars He was referring to?

And the sun has been darkened many times and so has the moon turned to blood and stars falling has been a common occurrence. So if no man knows the hour then how can one say He has or has not come unless He came quietly like a thief? What does ‘He that has eyes let him see and he that has ears let him hear mean’? Aren’t we all from birth born with eyes and ears?
And if He comes quietly like a thief and not a spectacular light show in the sky how will you know as no one knows what He looks like or has any DNA to prove it is Him?
Could it be a Great Spiritual Being like Christ who will appear but will be misunderstood like the Jews who were expecting an earthly King?
I believe that the signs accompanying His Return have been misread and that He has already come and gone as a thief. You all probably know that I believe Baha’u’llah was Christ returned in the glory of the Father. What do you think? Is it possible that as the Jews misread the signs, that once again they have been misunderstood? Is man capable of making the same mistake twice or is man’s judgement perfect and he couldn’t have possibly missed the Second Coming?

In a nut shell, I find we are at the ' final phase' of Matthew 24:14 about spreading the international good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) being done now on a global scale as never before in history.
As a thief comes by surprise, that is how surprisingly Jesus will come.
The international proclaiming about God's kingdom government means we are nearing the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security..." which will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus takes the action as mentioned at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 so his action will Not be missed.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Catholics are probably the biggest Christian denomination I'd imagine. Yet, you kind of imply that they follow the Pope and Priests and not Jesus? So is the Catholic Church a "fraud"? Yet, has millions of followers? In fact if you do believe that, you wouldn't be alone. Protestants brought away from the Catholic Church because they thought they were not following Jesus and the truth of the Bible.

But what about the Protestants? TV evangelists and "spiritual" healers? Most denominations believe in the resurrection and return of Jesus and that Jesus is God. Are those preachers frauds? Or, just totally and completely mistaken? Yet, they have millions of followers.

Baha'is say the Umayyads and the Abbasids are the beasts and the dragons of Revelation. Does that make them false? I don't see how you could say they aren't. Yet, they have millions of followers.

But really, "millions" of people model their lives on these "Suns of Truth" or they just go through the motions of following their religion? Even Baha'is, do all model their life on the teachings of Baha'u'llah, or are Baha'is in name only? And, speaking of name only, or should I say in signed declaration card only, many are counted as being Baha'i and don't attend meetings, don't participate in anything, and many can't be found. But, I'd imagine all religions are counting people that aren't really actively participating in the religion.

Oh, and The Bab still has followers? People that follow him and haven't joined the Baha'i Faith? Or, is it a virtually dead and obsolete religion?


I think the Tablet of Ahmad sums up the answer to your questions. I consider it is for Baha’u’llah, the Judge and Redeemer of all mankind to make that call as we Baha’is are just imperfect human beings ourselves.


Verily this is that Most Great Beauty, foretold in the Books of the Messengers, through Whom truth shall be distinguished from error and the wisdom of every command shall be tested.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.


For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.


Instead of seeing God with their own eyes or hearing with their own ears, it is my belief that the majority are following the sermons of self appointed priests and clergy who are rewriting the meanings of the Holy Books to suit their own personal agendas which is to maintain power and control over the minds of their followers indefinitely and a ‘Promised One ‘ is a threat to that agenda so they must keep delaying the return of Christ or dismiss it altogether, but the day will come I firmly believe, when these leaders will openly oppose Him because it will have become too big an issue to ignore as many people will turn to Baha’u’llah and this will create worldwide opposition from the religious leaders.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You neglected to mention a possible option, which is: that the Bible verses about this are mistaken, and that Jesus never said this. And besides, he said he would come soon, which he didn't do. No one said it, because it didn't happen.
I wonder how going away on a long journey is considered as coming soon ____________ - Luke 19:11-15.
To me Jesus, as the nobleman, stressed the kingdom would Not immediately appear.
First, there would have to be the international proclaiming about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Plus, the setting or time frame for Revelation 1:10 is for our day or time frame and Not the first century.
You are going to be for quite a surprise when the 'powers that be' will be saying, " Peace and Security..." because that will prove to be the precursor for Jesus coming as executioner against the wicked as per Matthew 25:31-33.
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will be the force used to rid the Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
In a nut shell, I find we are at the ' final phase' of Matthew 24:14 about spreading the international good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) being done now on a global scale as never before in history.
As a thief comes by surprise, that is how surprisingly Jesus will come.
The international proclaiming about God's kingdom government means we are nearing the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security..." which will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus takes the action as mentioned at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 so his action will Not be missed.

By the mid 1800’s the Bible had been spread to ever continent - worldwide.

As people are born and die there will always be people the Bible ‘has not reached ‘. But this is not referring to that but that the Gospel would have extended its reach internationall to reach all the world.


M. H. Goyer writes in his book on prophetic fulfilment: “The British and
Foreign Bible Society (for one example) has issued, since its foundation in
1804, over 421 million copies of the Scriptures, in practically every country
known throughout the globe.”

In Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer wrote that the Gospel in his
day had been spread ‘to ninety-five per cent of the inhabitants of the earth.’ He
added: “It was in 1842 that five treaty-ports in China were open to commerce
and to missions—advance steps in the opening of all China to the Gospel. In
1844 Turkey was prevailed upon to recognise the right of the Moslems to
become Christians, reversing all Moslem tradition. In 1844 Alan Gardiner
established the South American Mission. In 1842 Livingstone’s determination
was formed to open the African interior.”

Dr A. T. Pierson in Modern Mission Century wrote: “India, Siam, Burma,
China, Japan, Turkey, Africa, Mexico, South America … were successively
and successfully entered. Within five years, from 1853 to 1858, new facilities
were given to the entrance and occupation of seven different countries, together
embracing half the world’s population.”

There were many additional references which made it clear that the Gospel
of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844,
spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world.
This was considered by the students of Scripture to be in exact fulfilment
of the words of Christ given in Mark.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Everyone will witness the return of Christ. There will be no missing it or mistaking it for something else.

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him

Every eye has seen the day of God unfold, but every mind is yet to connect the world we see today, with Christ's Message as the Father, the Glory of God.
Dear Tony, it says every eye will see this person that had been pieced. Why is that not a reference to Jesus? And, instead, to Baha'u'llah?
 
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