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The role of action within faith

Dawnofhope

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
stvdv said:
Thank you Adrian. It' getting clearer.

So, you believe that from now on you will continue to live through the worlds of God after this world.

Does this mean you don't come back on this earth, but you go to other worlds. Even when you did not learn all the lessons on earth? And in the other world is there the same "you"; as awareness, with or without personality awareness (personal relations on earth vanish from this "you" etc)?

Or does it mean, that if you fail here (to learn the lessons), you kind of vaporize, and only the ones "making it here" continue to the other worlds?
Click to expand...

As I understand the Baha’i writings, we all progress to the next world. However if we have failed to take the opportunity to develop spirituality in this world our progress is retarded. One of my favourite analogies is that of a baby growing in his mother’s womb. Although lacking consciousness of the world outside his mother yet he develops his senses and limbs to progress in the world beyond. In this world it is virtues and moral attributes we need to develop that enables progress in both this world and the world beyond. So no, there’s no vaporising.:)

stvdv said:
Is this directly from Bahaullah or from one of the successors?
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Abdul-Baha
 
Dawnofhope

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
It's not that faith is unimportant. It's just that the reed that measures acceptability is action. If I'm starving, do I care if the person giving me food does so with a charitable heart or begrudgingly? Certainly not! I'm just glad to get the food. I'm not saying that giving with kavanah isn't a higher version, I'm just saying that giving with poor motivation is still a good work.
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Thanks for your response. Part of what I’m contemplating is the relationship between faith and deeds. They both seem essential, especially from the perspective of spiritual development. Who are we to judge the worthiness of actions of another? Perhaps the reed that measures acceptability is God Himself and His Revelation.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
adrian009 said:
I attended the retirement celebration of a university chaplain today. He seemed to have worked across cultures and different faiths to assist many young people on their journey through tertiary education, especially those away from home for the first time. I was quite impressed. He had been instrumental in setting up an Abrahamic Council after 9/11 to enable dialogue and better understanding between Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Later the Interfaith Council was formed to be more representative of the diversity of faith groups. My chaplain associate had been a very active participant in both groups. After the terrorist attacks leading to the killing of 51 Muslims in a city nearby he had spearheaded the response of both my city and university where we came together unified as one people in the aftermath of an act of unprecedented evil. Unfortunately he became exhausted and burnt out a few months later having to take early retirement which we ‘celebrated’ today.

I’ve been contemplating the role of actions and good deeds in regards one’s faith. What is it about our faith or worldview that motivates us or inhibits us from doing good in the world. Clearly faith is not necessary for many people to do good. Many of us have experienced those who claim having a particular religion where faith is all important and good deeds seem less of a priority.

How about if were nearing the end of our lives and we realised we are like a tree without fruit? Perhaps we have extended great efforts in this life to be of service to others. What attitudes would we draw from our faith when confronted with a life well lived?

So as we live our day to day lives what service do we offer humanity? What steps do we take to ensure we don’t burn out?
Click to expand...

I've never thought of the question in those terms. I guess I would be an educator and support LGBTQ youth from being homeless, sharing coming out experiences, and things of that nature. I do write for our local paper, a few articles here and there. Giving information seems to stick with me. Humanity? My noggin' can't think of those big terms: power, humanity, the big One, etc. I'm just my little ol' self here two to eighteen hours away from family.

I had a dream about my having a bomb or something that was nearing my end of life. Another dream I was having a nervous breakdown cause in reality I was told I had a tumor but they forgot to mention benign until appointments later. A good way to think of it is, if one has a year to live, month, week, day, etc what would you want to do for humanity? What's your last service?

Takes a lot of discipline but I'm sure if you pace yourself, there won't be too much of a burnout.
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
adrian009 said:
As I understand the Baha’i writings, we all progress to the next world. However if we have failed to take the opportunity to develop spirituality in this world our progress is retarded. One of my favourite analogies is that of a baby growing in his mother’s womb. Although lacking consciousness of the world outside his mother yet he develops his senses and limbs to progress in the world beyond. In this world it is virtues and moral attributes we need to develop that enables progress in both this world and the world beyond. So no, there’s no vaporising.:)
Click to expand...
Thank you Adrian. Also a good analogy you discovered of the baby (or is this from Bahuallah or Abdul-Baha?). I like the idea that it's not about being a millionaire on earth that counts in the next (I would have failed miserably:D), those virtues and moral attributes are much easier to do for me.

Some questions arise now; just curious. I heard before about reincarnation ... coming and going only to earth. In a way it makes sense, because there is a kind of balance of coming/going to earth. Now with this new idea, I try to understand how the balance is kept. I guess, that when this information about the next world was "received" there might have been more information to it. Other people, like me, might have had all kind of questions like me.

Everything in this Universe is about balance, as I see it. In this new picture, I fail to see the balance in this view, so far, hence the extra questions that follow now.

From this world I (and other humans) go to the next (not on earth). We leave our bodies here (as ashes or as food for animals).
Is there some knowledge, how I as a human come into this world? Just trying to understand the "Flow Chart" here; how it makes sense.

And when all humans go to the next world, already for millennia, does it not get too crowded there (if spiritual, it will take up less space?)
Of course the Universe is immense, so plenty of space I guess. Would this "next world" be close to the earth?
Does the next world only contains spiritual bodies, or is it mixed depending on how we evolved here on earth?

I never thought about these things before. They never came into my mind, otherwise I could have asked Sai Baba. But I missed my chance.:oops:

adrian009 said:
Abdul-Baha
Click to expand...
Thank you for this. I had the feeling, that it was not from Bahaullah. And maybe we will never know for sure all the details. One of the many mysteries we have on this earth. Anyway, this view, as with the reincarnation view, is a good incentive for humans to try their best, and behave as humane as possible. So, in that way, both views do make sense to me, to be given to humanity:)
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
stvdv said:
I never thought about these things before. They never came into my mind, otherwise I could have asked Sai Baba. But I missed my chance.:oops:
Click to expand...

Wonderful questions. Again Adrian will answer, but this is such a wonderful topic and I am passionate about it.

The Key to this for me is Mind and how it can be used for action in this world. I see it is our connection of Soul, Spirit and mind that is the aspect that is reborn or returned to this world.

Thus I see every action and thought we have, good and bad, has consequences throughout time. All the attributes I obtain to in this world, good or bad, will be reborn in the ages to come.

This again is a massive topic with many tangents. Always happy to discuss. Would make a good thread I think.

Regards Tony
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
adrian009 said:
Thanks for your response. Part of what I’m contemplating is the relationship between faith and deeds. They both seem essential, especially from the perspective of spiritual development. Who are we to judge the worthiness of actions of another? Perhaps the reed that measures acceptability is God Himself and His Revelation.
Click to expand...
God exists independently of us. We don't evaluate God. I thought the question was how we evaluate ourselves?? As I said, it's not that faith is not valuable, but that the proof is in the pudding. Even in the Christian Scriptures James says, "You tell me about your faith, and I will show you my faith by my works." 'Nuff said.
 
Dawnofhope

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
stvdv said:
Thank you Adrian. Also a good analogy you discovered of the baby (or is this from Bahuallah or Abdul-Baha?). I like the idea that it's not about being a millionaire on earth that counts in the next (I would have failed miserably:D), those virtues and moral attributes are much easier to do for me.

Some questions arise now; just curious. I heard before about reincarnation ... coming and going only to earth. In a way it makes sense, because there is a kind of balance of coming/going to earth. Now with this new idea, I try to understand how the balance is kept. I guess, that when this information about the next world was "received" there might have been more information to it. Other people, like me, might have had all kind of questions like me.

Everything in this Universe is about balance, as I see it. In this new picture, I fail to see the balance in this view, so far, hence the extra questions that follow now.

From this world I (and other humans) go to the next (not on earth). We leave our bodies here (as ashes or as food for animals).
Is there some knowledge, how I as a human come into this world? Just trying to understand the "Flow Chart" here; how it makes sense.

And when all humans go to the next world, already for millennia, does it not get too crowded there (if spiritual, it will take up less space?)
Of course the Universe is immense, so plenty of space I guess. Would this "next world" be close to the earth?
Does the next world only contains spiritual bodies, or is it mixed depending on how we evolved here on earth?

I never thought about these things before. They never came into my mind, otherwise I could have asked Sai Baba. But I missed my chance.:oops:


Thank you for this. I had the feeling, that it was not from Bahaullah. And maybe we will never know for sure all the details. One of the many mysteries we have on this earth. Anyway, this view, as with the reincarnation view, is a good incentive for humans to try their best, and behave as humane as possible. So, in that way, both views do make sense to me, to be given to humanity:)
Click to expand...

As you will appreciate material wealth and status will not assist your progress in the next world. There are indications from Baha'i, Christian and Islamic scripture that progress in the next world may be hindered by possessions.

You will recall the famous statement by by Christ in regards how hard it is for a rich man to attain the kingdom of heaven.

Know ye in truth that wealth is a mighty barrier between the seeker and his desire, the lover and his beloved. The rich, but for a few, shall in no wise attain the court of His presence nor enter the city of content and resignation.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 41

It is important to realise the limitations of our understanding when it comes to the nature of the soul and the after life.

The world beyond, writes Bahá’u’lláh, “is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother.” Just as the womb provides the environment for a person’s initial physical development, the phenomenal world is the arena within which we develop the spiritual characteristics and capacities that we need for our onward journey. Both here and in the next life, we advance with the assistance of God’s bounty and grace. Also important to the progress of our souls in the next world are the good deeds carried out in our names here on earth, and the sincere prayers of our families and friends.

Seen in this light, death is not to be feared. Bahá’u’lláh refers to it as a “messenger of joy.” He states: “Thou art My dominion and My dominion perisheth not; wherefore fearest thou thy perishing? Thou art My light and My light shall never be extinguished; why dost thou dread extinction? Thou art My glory and My glory fadeth not; thou art My robe and My robe shall never be outworn.”

Life and Death | What Bahá’ís Believe

There are many Baha'i writings that speak of the nature of the soul and its relationship with bth this world and the world beyond this mortal realm. In considering the next world, we can only faintly imagiine such a reality and it is for the most part beyond our capacity to understand. In fact, if the viel were to be lifted between this world and the next, we would long to move from this world to the next. So there is a wisdom with the true reality of the after life being obscured.

Perhaps reflection on these words of Baha'u'llah will better enable insight as to the eternal nature of the soul.

Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness. – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 153-154.

The Reality of the Soul
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
adrian009 said:
Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind.
Click to expand...
Seems that the soul of man is pure always. Believing we are body/mind creates thoughts of "impurity" or "sin". Those are unreal. Soul seems Atma.

adrian009 said:
When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal
Click to expand...
Seems again that any "soul" leaving the earth "returns" to the source

adrian009 said:
very pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness
Click to expand...
Are you sure that a "soul" can be refined. If people see "soul" as different from "Atma", there is still duality/illusion, which vanishes when body dies.
 
MonkeyFire

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Faith and omnipotence are passive. God doesnt need to save you, you need to end your own bignorance over hatred and be happy. Your own feelings are a result of your own action.
 
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