The Pledge of Allegiance, Going The Way Of The Dodo Bird?

Landon Caeli said:

I have no idea why credibility doesn't matter anymore. Or maybe it's the opposite -that people lack logic.

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It's both; too many people don't value credibility or logic, which is how inept buffoons like Trump gain popularity and power.

Skwim said:

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"The Pledge of Allegiance is Going Out of Style in Palo Alto, California

Sue Dremann of the Palo Alto Weekly notes that several local civic groups no longer say the Pledge of Allegiance because they realize it’s historically anti-immigrant, exclusionary, and just a Christian prayer in disguise.

The Rotary [Club] is not alone. The Palo Alto University Rotary Club, Kiwanis Club of Palo Alto and Palo Alto Chamber of Commerce all forego the pledge, saying that the tradition excludes immigrant members and non-Americans who attend their events.
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The Pledge isn’t banned. It’s recited at certain events even for some of those groups, just not all of them. Obviously anyone can say it on their own whenever they feel like it. But for some ignorant traditionalists, the Pledge, like prayer, only counts if everyone else is forced to do it.

Others in the area said they don’t recite the Pledge, either, but only because they never started. There was no deliberate attempt to stop. Either way, it’s the right move.

Most of the groups that have done away with the ritual are local civic groups or school boards."
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And FYI

1892
(first version)
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1892 to 1923
(early revision by Bellamy)
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1923 to 1924
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1924 to 1954
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1954
(current version, per 4 U.S.C. §4)
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


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So, Is it a custom that's beginning to outlive its usefulness? OR is it an outdated, offensive vow that should be abolished? OR is it just fine the way it is?

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As long as it is voluntary and outside of schools it seems fine in my view. Perhaps extend that to government employees as they swear different oath and have contract obligation they agree to.

Skwim said:

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So, Is it a custom that's beginning to outlive its usefulness? OR is it an outdated, offensive vow that should be abolished? OR is it just fine the way it is?
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I think it's okay and could stay, just the "under god" part could go. It wasn't in the original after all and was added during the communist scare.

Landon Caeli said:

I have no idea why credibility doesn't matter anymore. Or maybe it's the opposite -that people lack logic.

I change my position to choice B. That Sue Dremann lacks sound logic.

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Logic and science is a tool of the white man to keep minorities down. You must not have got the memo.

Shad said:

As long as it is voluntary and outside of schools it seems fine in my view. Perhaps extend that to government employees as they swear different oath and have contract obligation they agree to.

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I'm not sure what schools do now, but I recall that in grade school at least we always said the Pledge of Allegiance.

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It's a chauvinistic loyalty oath I'd expect in an authoritarian state like N. Korea. The intent may be to cement the public into a compliant, monolithic Volk, but it also quickly sorts out the dissenters, intellectuals and other potential troublemakers.

Valjean said:

It's a chauvinistic loyalty oath I'd expect in an authoritarian state like N. Korea. The intent may be to cement the public into a compliant, monolithic Volk, but it also quickly sorts out the dissenters, intellectuals and other potential troublemakers.

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That's kind of how I felt about it. I can understand the state of fear that a lot of people might have felt, especially during WW2 and the Cold War, when there seemed to be a more fervent drive towards patriotism and a push for the Pledge of Allegiance in schools.

Of course, there was a sharp resistance against it which became widespread. It wasn't just hippies or peaceniks, but throughout US history, there have been large segments of the population who just weren't into the whole "national mobilization" thing. They're still loyal and patriotic, but not fanatical or blind about it.

I remember being told when I was a kid that if we didn't say the Pledge of Allegiance, the Russians would take over America and send us all to prison camps. Well, I didn't want to go to a prison camp, so I said the Pledge of Allegiance.

Skwim said:

I'm not sure what schools do now, but I recall that in grade school at least we always said the Pledge of Allegiance.

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I am against it is public school as something promoted by the school. If a student wants to say the pledge on their own time that is fine. By their own time I am it has nothing to do with any school action.

Stevicus said:

That's kind of how I felt about it. I can understand the state of fear that a lot of people might have felt, especially during WW2 and the Cold War, when there seemed to be a more fervent drive towards patriotism and a push for the Pledge of Allegiance in schools.

Of course, there was a sharp resistance against it which became widespread. It wasn't just hippies or peaceniks, but throughout US history, there have been large segments of the population who just weren't into the whole "national mobilization" thing. They're still loyal and patriotic, but not fanatical or blind about it.

I remember being told when I was a kid that if we didn't say the Pledge of Allegiance, the Russians would take over America and send us all to prison camps. Well, I didn't want to go to a prison camp, so I said the Pledge of Allegiance.

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This is part of my concern. If someone declines to say it it is very easy to twist a perception into a crime or questionable loyalties.

Europeans visiting the states often comment on the ubiquitous flags, and patriotic displays. Me, I've noticed an ever increasing adulation of the military and, to a lesser extent, the police.

When Colin Kaepernick and others began kneeling during the national anthem during (American) football games there was widespread criticism of this "unpatriotic, anti-American" display. Everyone was supposed to rise to attention, face the flag and place their hands over their hearts or something.

But if you don't want political dissent during a sports game, don't turn it into a political rally with anthems, flag-waving and standing to attention.
Create a political event and you should expect political commentary.

Shad said:

This is part of my concern. If someone declines to say it it is very easy to twist a perception into a crime or questionable loyalties.

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Well, it's definitely not a crime to decline to recite the Pledge. That was decided by the Supreme Court decades ago.

But yeah, there could be peer pressure and the suggestion that someone might be "disloyal" for refusing to recite the Pledge (or failing to rise and show respect for the National Anthem).

Valjean said:

Europeans visiting the states often comment on the ubiquitous flags, and patriotic displays. Me, I've noticed an ever increasing adulation of the military and, to a lesser extent, the police.

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Perhaps, although Europeans have a much more extensive history of nationalism than in the U.S. Some European countries also seem to emphasize obedience and deference to a quasi-monarchistic hierarchy and national traditions which most Americans find incomprehensible. In contrast, America's national identity and traditions are largely borrowed and somewhat contrived. As a consequence, all we really have to keep the country together are flags and patriotic displays - along with the military and the police.

Some people say that Americans are unified by our belief in freedom, but freedom is an abstraction, and beliefs require symbols.

When Colin Kaepernick and others began kneeling during the national anthem during (American) football games there was widespread criticism of this "unpatriotic, anti-American" display. Everyone was supposed to rise to attention, face the flag and place their hands over their hearts or something.

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I think a lot of people may have misunderstood the intent. Part of the fault may lie with a certain irritating characteristic I've noticed in popular culture and media these days. People seem to be more focused on wanting to be clever and cute, rather than clear and concise. They're more obsessed with image - style over substance - and as a result, the message gets lost, garbled, or misconstrued.

But if you don't want political dissent during a sports game, don't turn it into a political rally with anthems, flag-waving and standing to attention.
Create a political event and you should expect political commentary.

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I think there's a difference in perception in that some people think of patriotism as being above politics. Traditionally and historically, Democrats and Republicans would stand for and recite the Pledge or sing the National Anthem. It didn't matter what their political differences might have been; they just did it, because it was all about America.

As for sporting events, one thing that strikes me about it is that, I've been at games where there'd be fans from the visiting team present in the stands. Of course, sports fans (particular those of arch rivals) can be very partisan, and they'll razz, insult, and harass fans of the other team. Most of it is all good-natured, light-hearted fun, but there are some fans who can get even more extreme and even violent. (I've heard that it's even worse in Europe, with their "soccer hooligans" or whatever they're called.)

But when they all rise for the National Anthem and show respect for the flag, there's a temporary sense of unity. Whatever sports rivalries exist don't really matter for those few moments, as we're all Americans and unified against the "godless communists" or whatever the current enemy of the day might be.

Stevicus said:

Well, it's definitely not a crime to decline to recite the Pledge. That was decided by the Supreme Court decades ago.

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I was thinking along social lines as per your point below.

But yeah, there could be peer pressure and the suggestion that someone might be "disloyal" for refusing to recite the Pledge (or failing to rise and show respect for the National Anthem).

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Bingo

Valjean said:

Europeans visiting the states often comment on the ubiquitous flags, and patriotic displays. Me, I've noticed an ever increasing adulation of the military and, to a lesser extent, the police.

When Colin Kaepernick and others began kneeling during the national anthem during (American) football games there was widespread criticism of this "unpatriotic, anti-American" display. Everyone was supposed to rise to attention, face the flag and place their hands over their hearts or something.

But if you don't want political dissent during a sports game, don't turn it into a political rally with anthems, flag-waving and standing to attention.
Create a political event and you should expect political commentary.

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Owner vs employee.