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Genesis 2:21: Sex and the Origins of Death.

Tumah

Veteran Member
    • Gee, ... that kind of looks like the makings of "an Origin of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin" story from where I sit. We Gentiles just missed the cleansing effect of not having ancestors standing with the Israelites at Mount Sinai.
I don't think there's any question that the Christian doctrine of Original Sin originates in Jewish sources.

    • From this ignorant Gentile's perspective, the B. Avodah Zarah section seemed--on a real quick scan--to mostly be about bestiality issues and whether Jews should buy animals from Gentiles, who apparently often preferred their animals to their wives.
Specifically about buying them for use as a sacrifice.
The Talmud Bavli specifically names "Rabbi Yohanon(sp.?)" and attributes the story in question to him. Is the identity of that Rabbi certain or ambiguous? I ask because I don't know if there were any other Rabbi's who were named "Yohanon" in part or whole,
  • If, by that name, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai is meant, then wouldn't that place "the story" in Israel as early, at the very least, theoretically around 70 CE?
No, it's a third century Rabbi from Israel.
Continued from my #80.

The B. Shabat and B. Yevamot readings cited in my last message intrigued me for the following reason:
  • Connecting dots, rightly or wrongly, I see a non-Christian Jewish tradition according to which the Serpent seduces and defiles Eve, and that "pollution" is passed from Mother Eve to her descendants until Israel stands at Mt. Sinai. Gentiles, of course, who did not themselves stand at Mt. Sinai nor have anyone to stand there on their behalf, continue to inherit and pass on the pollution inherited from Mother Eve, unless and until they join themselves to Israel (through conversion).
  • Today, Jews reject the Doctrine of Original Sin. After all, why wouldn't they? Their ancestors were cleansed ot it at Mt. Sinai.
IMO
Orthodox Jews reject the Christian doctrine of Original Sin. We embrace the Jewish doctrine, which we call "The Sin of the Tree of Knowledge" or "Sin of the First Man" and it's effects on mankind - including ourselves. See for instance:

The Sages taught in a baraita: There were four people who died only because of the counsel of the primordial snake, in the wake of which all of humanity became mortal, and not on account of any personal sin. And they are: Benjamin, son of Jacob; Amram, father of Moses; Yishai, father of David; and Chileab, son of David. And all of these are known through tradition except for Yishai, father of David, with regard to whom it is written explicitly: “And Absalom placed Amasa over the army instead of Joab, and Amasa was the son of a man whose name was Ithra the Israelite, who engaged in intercourse with Abigail, daughter of Nahash, the sister of Zeruiah, mother of Joab” (II Samuel 17:25). But was Abigail the daughter of Nahash? Was she not the daughter of Yishai, as it is written: “And their sisters were Zeruiah and Abigail” (I Chronicles 2:16)? Rather, she was called “daughter of Nahash” to indicate that she was the daughter of one who died only because of the counsel of the snake.​

The Zohar (which you quote in some posts, or I would not have brought it up) does claim that with the sin of the Golden Calf, the impurity was returned to Israel as well. You can find this statement about Israel which bears some similarity to the one you found about bestiality among Gentiles:

Rav Yehuda says that Rav says: The Jewish people knew that idol worship is of no substance; they did not actually believe in it. And they worshipped idols only in order to permit themselves to engage in forbidden sexual relations in public​
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
I don't think there's any question that the Christian doctrine of Original Sin originates in Jewish sources.

Thanks for the confirmation!

Specifically about buying them for use as a sacrifice.

Duly noted.

No, it's a third century Rabbi from Israel.

Thank you. Can't remember right off hand, but rosends may have corrected me previously regarding Rabbi Yohanon's identity.

We embrace the Jewish doctrine, which we call "The Sin of the Tree of Knowledge" or "Sin of the First Man" and it's effects on mankind - including ourselves.

Hmmm, ... interesting. Now, however, I'm not clear what Christian doctrine of Original Sin you are referring to, because my fading memory of early explanations seems to be similar to that which you briefly mention. I am absolutely certain that nobody ever suggested or taught me to believe that mankind's Original Sin is due to Eve's sexual defilement by the serpent. [I certainly would have remembered that!]

with the sin of the Golden Calf, the impurity was returned to Israe

Returned? I'll explore the matter further, later.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The Zohar (which you quote in some posts, or I would not have brought it up) does claim that with the sin of the Golden Calf, the impurity was returned to Israel as well. You can find this statement about Israel which bears some similarity to the one you found about bestiality among Gentiles:

Not all Jewish people consider the Talmud authoritative, unlike the Torah or Tanakh.

. . . Not all Jewish people are even theists. So many don't consider the Torah or Tanakh authoritative.




John
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
They did not eat from the tree of life.
In the Bible, eating means believing.
Believing means doing what you're told.
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
the Christian doctrine of Original Sin

There is no doctrine of Original Sin in the teachings of the Christ... therefore, the teaching of Original Sin isn't Christian.

Paul is a Gnostic... that's probably where the teaching of Original Sin comes from.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Genesis 1:26-28. Focus on verse 28. How does one be fruitful and multiply without having sex?
That verse only records God commanding Adam and Eve to procreate, it does not describe them having sex.

In that very same verse He also commanded them to "subdue" the Earth and have dominion over all other creatures.

Are you also claiming that Adam and Eve subdued the Earth and dominated all the creatures upon it at the very moment too?

If not, then you cannot make the claim that the had sex at that very moment.

The Genesis account does not record Adam and Eve having sex until after they left the Garden. (Genesis 4:1)
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
Genesis 1:26-28. Focus on verse 28. How does one be fruitful and multiply without having sex?
Natural to spiritual, 1 Corinthians 15:44-46.

So, physical relations one is able to multiply, but so also the spiritual relation, through sharing the gospel and 'making' disciples, those who are 'born again', becoming "babes in Christ", having received the "seed" which is Christ, even God, whose eye is single (of purpose), in the "earth/heart".
 
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Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Probably depends on your definition of Gnostic. These days, it's said to mean knowledge. Used to mean mysteries.
More than likely the Doctrine of Original Sin depends on one's "Garden of Eden" Myths.

To Hebrew experts: did Eve sleep with the Serpent?
Read Posts # 1, 12, 60, 72, 79, 108, or:

Brief summary.
  • Serpent defiled Eve in the Garden of Eden.
  • All of Eve's descendants, from that time forward, were born with the "biological and spiritual" consequences of Eve's defilement.
  • At Sinai, God gave Moses (and Israel) the Torah, which cleansed all standing there, and their biological heirs, of the taint of Original Sin.
    • Later converts to Judaism were cleansed by virtue of angels who stood at Sinai on their behalf.
  • All nations who did NOT stand at Sinai and did not receive the Torah, remained uncleansed and unclean, continuing to carry the consequences of Eve's defilement.
  • And that, I say, is how we Christians "got" our doctrine of Original Sin.
  • Moreover, the serpent's defilement of Eve earned it God's curse. Before God's curse, the serpent walked on four legs like all or almost all reptiles. After the curse for its horrendous crime, it lost its legs and that is why it and all its desendants now crawl on their bellies.
So, you see, the Christian doctrine of Original Sin did NOT originate with Paul, whether he was gnostic or not.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
In another forum I began a discussion (I'd like to continue here) of Sex and the Origins of Death. I began the discussion with this statement:

In Professor William R. Clark's brilliant book, Sex & The Origins of Death, he points out the difference between accidental death, death to an organism based on factors external to the organism, versus "programmed death"; the latter being death required by the dictates, so to say, of the cell itself, its programming. He shows that this "programmed death," packaged in the cell-instructions themselves, appears to have arisen about the time the cells began experimenting with sex. He quips that sex may have indeed been the ultimate loss not only of innocence, but that it's also the genesis (2:21), of senescence, and thus programmed death.


John

Isnt'it the opposite?
They say having sex keeps one young.:p
 
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