Tumah
Veteran Member
I don't think there's any question that the Christian doctrine of Original Sin originates in Jewish sources.
- Gee, ... that kind of looks like the makings of "an Origin of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin" story from where I sit. We Gentiles just missed the cleansing effect of not having ancestors standing with the Israelites at Mount Sinai.
Specifically about buying them for use as a sacrifice.
- From this ignorant Gentile's perspective, the B. Avodah Zarah section seemed--on a real quick scan--to mostly be about bestiality issues and whether Jews should buy animals from Gentiles, who apparently often preferred their animals to their wives.
No, it's a third century Rabbi from Israel.The Talmud Bavli specifically names "Rabbi Yohanon(sp.?)" and attributes the story in question to him. Is the identity of that Rabbi certain or ambiguous? I ask because I don't know if there were any other Rabbi's who were named "Yohanon" in part or whole,
- If, by that name, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai is meant, then wouldn't that place "the story" in Israel as early, at the very least, theoretically around 70 CE?
Orthodox Jews reject the Christian doctrine of Original Sin. We embrace the Jewish doctrine, which we call "The Sin of the Tree of Knowledge" or "Sin of the First Man" and it's effects on mankind - including ourselves. See for instance:Continued from my #80.
The B. Shabat and B. Yevamot readings cited in my last message intrigued me for the following reason:
IMO
- Connecting dots, rightly or wrongly, I see a non-Christian Jewish tradition according to which the Serpent seduces and defiles Eve, and that "pollution" is passed from Mother Eve to her descendants until Israel stands at Mt. Sinai. Gentiles, of course, who did not themselves stand at Mt. Sinai nor have anyone to stand there on their behalf, continue to inherit and pass on the pollution inherited from Mother Eve, unless and until they join themselves to Israel (through conversion).
- Today, Jews reject the Doctrine of Original Sin. After all, why wouldn't they? Their ancestors were cleansed ot it at Mt. Sinai.
The Sages taught in a baraita: There were four people who died only because of the counsel of the primordial snake, in the wake of which all of humanity became mortal, and not on account of any personal sin. And they are: Benjamin, son of Jacob; Amram, father of Moses; Yishai, father of David; and Chileab, son of David. And all of these are known through tradition except for Yishai, father of David, with regard to whom it is written explicitly: “And Absalom placed Amasa over the army instead of Joab, and Amasa was the son of a man whose name was Ithra the Israelite, who engaged in intercourse with Abigail, daughter of Nahash, the sister of Zeruiah, mother of Joab” (II Samuel 17:25). But was Abigail the daughter of Nahash? Was she not the daughter of Yishai, as it is written: “And their sisters were Zeruiah and Abigail” (I Chronicles 2:16)? Rather, she was called “daughter of Nahash” to indicate that she was the daughter of one who died only because of the counsel of the snake.
The Zohar (which you quote in some posts, or I would not have brought it up) does claim that with the sin of the Golden Calf, the impurity was returned to Israel as well. You can find this statement about Israel which bears some similarity to the one you found about bestiality among Gentiles:
Rav Yehuda says that Rav says: The Jewish people knew that idol worship is of no substance; they did not actually believe in it. And they worshipped idols only in order to permit themselves to engage in forbidden sexual relations in public