COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

pcarl said:

I know you have stated that they were part of the Sinai Covenant, but can you explain this?; By this do you mean they are all encompassed within the 'Ten Words'?

Click to expand...

They are not encompassed by the Ten. When one reads Exodus Ch. 20, if they keep reading, Moses gradually gives many of the 613 Laws shortly afterword, also making it clear that they're from God. If one keeps reading through Dt., one will see all 613, although many of them are repeated.

Here: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

pcarl said:

Micah came and reduced them to three; It has been told you, man, what is good, and what the Lord demands from you, I only to do justly and ii to love mercy and iii to walk humbly before God. (Mic 6:8)

Click to expand...

That's my favorite verse.

Micah pretty much sets the stage for what Jesus later is going to teach, and this also is paralleled by Hillel, who lived just before Jesus' time. However, what both Micah and Hillel were saying is that this is the gist of the Law but that the rest of the Law (all 613) still needed to be followed.

But what is also important here is that they also believed that the application of the Law could be at least somewhat flexible depending on circumstances. This approach eventually became the dominant one in Judaism.

pcarl said:

Is this not what Jesus tells the 'young man' he must do, 'follow Me'?

Click to expand...

Yes, and to "love one another as I have loved you".

To put it another way, Christianity must become a lifestyle for us, and if it doesn't, then maybe all we're doing is going through the motions of "religion". This message is repeated throughout the Gospel and into the epistles as you well know.

metis said:

They are not encompassed by the Ten. When one reads Exodus Ch. 20, if they keep reading, Moses gradually gives many of the 613 Laws shortly afterword, also making it clear that they're from God.

Click to expand...

Thankyou that is my point. Why do we no longer do animal sacrifices. follow laws in ordinances, Levitical laws for remission of sin, ceremonial laws, and temple laws in the new covenant? *Hint; Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9; Hebrews 10; Ephesians 2; Colossians 2 and how many commandments are there in God's 10 commandments; 7, 9, 10; 613? Hint Deuteronomy 10:4. You mix up the Mosaic book of the shadow laws for remission of sins *Deuteronomy 31:24-26 from the old covenant *Exodus 24:7 with God's eternal law (10 Commandments) which were the work of God alone *Exodus 32:16 that gives us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and rightouesness in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. Love is the fulfilling of which law? *Hint Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Matthew 22:36-40.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.

metis said:

Micah pretty much sets the stage for what Jesus later is going to teach

Click to expand...

From the practice of early Christianity it seems clear that Jesus did not 'replace' the Commandments, but embodied them, thus, what more could the 'rich man' do was to follow Jesus, the Torah of the Messiah.

pcarl said:

From the practice of early Christianity it seems clear that Jesus did not 'replace' the Commandments, but embodied them, thus, what more could the 'rich man' do was to follow Jesus, the Torah of the Messiah.

Click to expand...

IMO, what he did was to end the observance to the letter of the Law but to then have the Law "written on our hearts" as he said. Thus, those Laws that deal with the love of God and the love of humankind, directly or indirectly, still were declared valid, and that approach clearly comes out in the Sermon On the Mount (Matthew 12-14) and in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew 25).

IMO, if one accepts and follows those two sets of teachings, they then are a believer in Jesus. I try my best and I know you do too by what you've posted many times before.

Hi 3rdAngel,
I believe all scripture to be inspired by God, and therefore I accept the words of Jesus as recorded in Matthew 5:17. 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.'

Jesus did all the works that were required by the law. For this reason, His Father was able to say, 'Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' (Mark 1:11)

Jesus is anointed as Messiah at his baptism, but does not receive his crown until he ascends to heaven and sits on the throne, at the right hand of his Father (Acts 2:30).

Jesus Christ, as promised, sent his Holy Spirit at Pentecost so that all who repent and believe in Jesus, (as Son of God and Saviour) might receive of His Spirit and abide in His body, the true Church.

Romans 10;4,5.'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.'

Now, let's go back to Moses in the wilderness and consider the words that Moses spoke prior to delivering the Ten Commandments to Israel. In Deuteronomy 5:1-4, Moses provides a preamble to the Ten Commandments, and in that preamble he says this:

'The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.'

Moses says that the covenant made with Israel at Horeb had not been made with 'our fathers' (by which he must have meant the likes of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). So the Decalogue, the covenant of God's own hand, was not revealed to Abraham, nor was it revealed to any other person that lived before Moses.

metis said:

IMO, what he did was to end the observance to the letter of the Law but to then have the Law "written on our hearts" as he said. Thus, those Laws that deal with the love of God and the love of humankind, directly or indirectly, still were declared valid, and that approach clearly comes out in the Sermon On the Mount (Matthew 12-14) and in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew 25).

Click to expand...

Hi Metis,
Hope all is well.

What you say about the law written on the heart is so true!
Psalm 40:8. 'I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.'
I understand this to be the inner expression of Jesus' heart.
When Jesus sends us his Holy Spirit, he sends us the love (fulfilled law) that is within him. This is then His righteous life within us! How, if this Spirit is leading us, can we fail to love God and our neighbour?

For a long time it struck me as strange that Jesus should issue a 'new' commandment. If he fulfils all the commandments given to Moses, why is there any need of a new commandment? (John 13:34)

Then I understood!

Hello Redemptionsong nice to see you again. Some comments for your consideration are provided below.

Redemptionsong said:

Hi 3rdAngel,
I believe all scripture to be inspired by God, and therefore I accept the words of Jesus as recorded in Matthew 5:17. 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.'

Jesus did all the works that were required by the law. For this reason, His Father was able to say, 'Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' (Mark 1:11)

Jesus is anointed as Messiah at his baptism, but does not receive his crown until he ascends to heaven and sits on the throne, at the right hand of his Father (Acts 2:30).

Jesus Christ, as promised, sent his Holy Spirit at Pentecost so that all who repent and believe in Jesus, (as Son of God and Saviour) might receive of His Spirit and abide in His body, the true Church.

Romans 10;4,5.'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.'

Click to expand...

Sounds like in this part of your post you are saying you believe Gods' Word what he says Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. If you believe the scripture here than brother what excuse do you have not to keep Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; James 2:10-11? If we sin willfully after we have been given a knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a feaful looking forward to of the judgment to come *Hebrews 10:26-39.

Redemptionsong said:

Now, let's go back to Moses in the wilderness and listen to his words before he delivers the Ten Commandments to Israel. In Deuteronomy 5:1-4, Moses provides a preamble to the Ten Commandments, and in that preamble he says this:

'The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.'

Moses says that the covenant made with Israel at Horeb had not been made with 'our fathers' (by which he must have meant the likes of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). So the Ten Commandments, the covenant of God's own hand, does not apply to Abraham, nor does it apply to any other person that lived before Moses.

Click to expand...

Now here your trying to argue that God's 10 commandments were not a covenant applied to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob befor Moses? Let's examine this claim to see if it is true through the scriptures...

Firstly, please note brother Deuteronomy is not when God gave the 10 commandments to ISRAEL. God gave the 10 commandments to his people earlier by the Spoken Word of God in Exodus 20:1-17 and on two tables of stone written with the finger of God *Exodus 32:16. The book of Deuteronomy is MOSES giving a concluding summary of the TORAH which are all the laws of the covenant not only God's 10 Commandments that were already provided in Exodus with the other laws of the Torah provided by Moses previously from the Book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 in Exodus Leviticus and Numbers. Deuteronomy is the summary of all these laws.

Secondly, Deuteronomy is not saying that the patriachs did not have God's 10 commandments through the spoken Word of God. This is already shown in GENESIS 26:5 that Abrham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. The Hebrew word for LAW meaning here is תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law. We also have scriptures showing that Abraham was offering burn't offereings.

Thirdly, the covenant made with ISRAEL was indeed not the same as the covenant made with Abraham and the patriachs as there was more added to this covenant. Not only did it include Gods 10 commandments it also included...

* The command of God to drive out the inhabbitants of Canaan *Deuteronomy 1-4; 7; 9; 12, It also lists clean and unclean animals, provides the laws for purification and uncleaness, the laws for the annual feast days and holy convocations, the establsihment for the first time of the earthly Sanctuary and the ceremonial laws and ordinances. It established for the first time the Levitical priest hood and all laws in sin offerings and the civil laws of Israel, not to mention all the other laws written in the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7.

So yes it was not like the covenant made with the Patriachs it included so much more. That being said your interpretation of Deuteronomy does not mean that the Patriachs did not have God's 10 commandments by the Spoken Word of God as has already been shown through the scriptures that they did in Genesis 26:5 and elsewhere.

Hope this is helpful.

Redemptionsong said:

Hi Metis,
Hope all is well.

What you say about the law written on the heart is so true!
Psalm 40:8. 'I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.'
I understand this to be the inner expression of Jesus' heart.
When Jesus sends us his Holy Spirit, he sends us the love (fulfilled law) that is within him. This is then His righteous life within us! How, if this Spirit is leading us, can we fail to love God and our neighbour?

For a long time it struck me as strange that Jesus should issue a 'new' commandment. If he fulfils all the commandments given to Moses, why is there any need of a new commandment? (John 13:34)

Then I understood!

Click to expand...

It is interesting as this in essence is the new covenant promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-12.

JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART. BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

Salvation is from sin (breaking God's LAW) not to continue in sin. If we continue in sin when we have been given a knowledge of the truth we will die because we reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *Hebrews 10:26-39; Romans 6:23.

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.

3rdAngel said:

It is interesting as this in essence is the new covenant promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-12.

JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART. BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

Salvation is from sin (breaking God's LAW) not to continue in sin. If we continue in sin when we have been given a knowledge of the truth we will die because we reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *Hebrews 10:26-39; Romans 6:23.

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.

Click to expand...

I believe Jesus Christ is God's Word (Revelation 19:13), and, by receiving baptism in the Holy Spirit, I believe I have received the grace of God's Word within my heart. This is not a boast but a statement that describes my experience.

The truth is, I would not have been blessed with the Holy Spirit had I not been humbled and broken first.

My difficulty with what I read in your posts, 3rdAngel, is what I see as an attempt to exchange grace for law.

Grace is not a poorer version of the law, it's the better Way. It gives people a freedom that does not exist under the law. I believe that by stressing the need to observe a Sabbath from 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday you are taking us backwards, not forwards.

For many people, the practical implications of your observance creates problems. It may mean stopping work early on Friday to get back in time for the Sabbath. For some people, this is just not possible. It may mean changing work altogether. It may also mean, for those in rural areas, that they end up as a congregation of one! This to me is legalism, and is not what Jesus came to bring.

My understanding of grace is, I still believe, borne out in the scriptures. The following simple statements have not, as yet, been refuted by your liberal scattering of scriptural references:

1. From Adam until Moses, no one, not even God's chosen, observed a weekly Sabbath from 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday. The reference to Genesis 26:5 is not enough to indicate observance.

2. From the day of Pentecost, when the Church was first formed, the Gentile believers felt no obligation to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Nowhere in the epistles can I find a reference to such observation. What does appear, instead, are references to disciples gathering for the breaking of bread on the first day of the week (Sunday). But no obligation appears to be attached to these meetings.

3. The six days of creation, and one day of rest, recorded in Genesis 1 and 2, do not lay down a law of Sabbath observation for man. This requirement to observe the weekly Sabbath does not appear until the covenant is made with Moses, Exodus 16: 22-26.

On this last point, let me state boldly that I believe that as I abide in Christ I also abide in His Rest. He becomes my Sabbath of peace. In Him, I am able to worship 'in Spirit and in truth'. In Him, I am able to truly love my neighbour. This can happen seven days a week, not one.

Also, as regarding point 3, there is good reason to believe that the days recorded in Genesis 1,2, are days of a thousand years. The first two thousand years would refer to time without law; the second two thousand years to time under the law; and the third two thousand years to the Messianic era. This would leave one thousand years, a Sabbath day, of rest or peace on earth. In other words, Genesis 1,2 is a prologue indicating the timespan of the 'first heaven and earth'.

Redemptionsong said:

I believe Jesus Christ is God's Word (Revelation 19:13), and, by receiving baptism in the Holy Spirit, I believe I have received the grace of God's Word within my heart. This is not a boast but a statement that describes my experience.

Click to expand...

As God's people we are to grow in grace and the knowledge of JESUS through his Word to become more and more like JESUS by faith in God's Word *John 17:17; John 6:63. We do not know everything when we first come to JESUS (God's Word). According to the scriptures when we first come to JESUS we are like babes not knowing everything about God's Word but as we learn God's Word we become more and more like JESUS *1 Peter 2:2; Hebrews 5:13; Matthew 11:25; 21:16; Romans 2:20; 1 Corinthians 3:1. God's people are in every Church *John 10:16 but the hour is coming and now is that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24; Revelation 18:1-4.

In times of ignorance God winks at as we grow in the knowledge of Word. When we do not know any better as Christians God does not hold us accountable to sin when we do not know something is sin *James 4:17 but when God gives us a knowledge of the truth calls all men everywhere to repent and believe and follow his Word *ACTS 17-30-31. If when God gives us a knowledge of the truth and we wilfullfully continue in sin once we we receive a knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking foward to of the judgment to come *Hebrews 10:26-27.

God's 4th commandments is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and just like any other of the 10 commandments if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. This is a teaching and tradition of men that has led many to break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9.

The question we must ask ourselves as we examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith *2 Corinthinans 13:5 is who are we believing and following; God or the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God? God is calling his people out wherever they may be back to the pure Word of God *Revelation 18:1-5. God's sheep hear his Voice and follow him (the Word). Those who are not his Sheep do not hear and do not follow *John 10:1-10; John 10:26-27. If we continue in his Word we are his disciples indeed and we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free *John 8:31-36. If we continue in sin we do not know him *1 John 2:3-4. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10 and breaking any one of God's 10 commandments is sin *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.

God's sheep hear his Voice and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow.

Redemptionsong said:

My difficulty with what I read in your posts, 3rdAngel, is what I see as an attempt to exchange grace for law.

Click to expand...

Rubblish! I have not posted and believe any such thing. Let's get this clear so there is no confusion here. We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.

Redemptionsong said:

For many people, the practical implications of your observance creates problems. It may mean stopping work early on Friday to get back in time for the Sabbath. For some people, this is just not possible. It may mean changing work altogether. It may also mean, for those in rural areas, that they end up as a congregation of one! This to me is legalism, and is not what Jesus came to bring.

Click to expand...

As posted earlier OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. God's 10 commandments are our duty of LOVE to both God and our fellow man. Those who have been given a new heart to love according to the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12 believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 10:26-27 because they have been given a new heart to love.

Do you love JESUS Redemptionsong?

JESUS says; IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS *John 14:15....

How can we know if we really know God or if we are deceiving ourselves?

1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Sin which is defined as breaking any one of God's 10 commandments * James 2:10-11 is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Matthew 7:22-27; Hebrews 10:26-39.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

Redemptionsong said:

My understanding of grace is, I still believe, borne out in the scriptures. The following simple statements have not, as yet, been refuted by your liberal scattering of scriptural references: 1. From Adam until Moses, no one, not even God's chosen, observed a weekly Sabbath from 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday. The reference to Genesis 26:5 is not enough to indicate observance.

Click to expand...

It is those very liberal scattering of scriptures shared with you that refute your claims that God's people did not know God's LAW and therefore what sin was before Exodus. Before the written word of God there was the spoken Word of God which God gave to his people who believed and followed his Word....

GENESIS 26:5 Because Abraham OBEYED MY VOICE, AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS.

The Hebrew word used for LAWS - H8451; תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

God's people knew about God's laws well before the written Word by the Spoken Word of God.

According to God's Word, JESUS says, the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27. The Sabbath was made for mankind when there was NO SIN, NO LAW, NO MOSES, NO JEW and NO ISRAEL. Therefore Adam and Eve had God's Sabbath being the Father and mother of all mankind and being made on the 6th day of creation *Genesis 1:26-31.

Redemptionsong said:

2. From the day of Pentecost, when the Church was first formed, the Gentile believers felt no obligation to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Nowhere in the epistles can I find a reference to such observation. What does appear, instead, are references to disciples gathering for the breaking of bread on the first day of the week (Sunday). But no obligation appears to be attached to these meetings.

Click to expand...

This statement is not biblical. I challenge you to prove your claims through the scriptures. Let me show you from the scriptures (only posting a few of too many) why your claims is not true.

Matthew 5:17-20 [17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. [18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [19], Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law.

Romans 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Now it is very clear from God's Word that JESUS did not come to destroy the law. No mention of the Sabbath being detroyed and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day in any of God's Word. Paul says we are to establish the law through faith and that the righteousness of the law is to be fulfilled in us as we walk in God's Spirit.

Then we have JESUS prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem to his disciples well after his death and resurrection...

Matthew 24:20-23 [20], But pray you that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [21], For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22], And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. [23], Then if any man shall say to you, See, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Yep seems that according to JESUS God's 4th commandment Sabbath was still to be kept well after the reurrection of JESUS into the future.

All the dsiciples kept God's 4th Commandment after the resurrection of JESUS as shown all through the book of Acts *Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; and Revelation 1:10 -Matthew 12:8.

God's people have kept the Sabbath unbroken all through time even after the Apostles to this very present day. Let me know if you would like the historical references.

Sorry brother it is clear God's Word disagrees with you. Then we have.... wait for it......

HEBREWS 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and just like every other one of God's 10 Commandments if we brake it when we have been given a knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *ACTS 17:30-31; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

Redemptionsong said:

3. The six days of creation, and one day of rest, recorded in Genesis 1 and 2, do not lay down a law of Sabbath observation for man. This requirement to observe the weekly Sabbath does not appear until the covenant is made with Moses, Exodus 16: 22-26.

Click to expand...

Well that is not true. The origin of God's 4th commandment is in the seventh day of the creation week as shown from God's Word alone. JESUS says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27. The Sabbath was made at creation where God set apart the "seventh day" of the week and "blessed" the "seventh day of the week" and made the "seventh day of the week a "Holy day"

GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and HE RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; KEEP SABBATH] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.

The origin of God's 4th commandment is in creation...

EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY [Made Holy at creation GENESIS 2:3]. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], But THE SEVENTH DAY [ Genesis 2:1-3] IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD : in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: [WHY?] [11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY; WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY. [Refering to GENESIS 2:1-3]

As can be shown through the scriptures alone the origen of God's 4th commandments is in creation where JESUS says that the Sabbath was made for mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27. Now brother these are Gods' Word not mine but you seem to be denying them with your words that are not God's in order to try to justify man made teachings and tradtions that are not biblical.

There is no one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. This is a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God and JESUS warns us not to follow them *Matthew 15:1-3.

Breaking God's LAW is sin *1 John 3:4 and according to God's Word all those who knowingly continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of Grace *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-39.

God's Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him *John 10:26-27.

Redemptionsong said:

On this last point, let me state boldly that I believe that as I abide in Christ I also abide in His Rest.

Click to expand...

In times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of his Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow it *Acts 17:30-31. When we are given a knowledge of the truth and willfully continue in sin we reject the gift of Gods' dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing turning our back to the Word of God *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-39 and no longer believe and follow God's Word. According to God's Word (not mine) we only abide in Christ if we do not pracrtice known sin...

1 JOHN 3:6-10 [6], Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil...

Sin is defined in God's Word as breaking any one of God's 10 commandments..

1 JOHN 3:4 , Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin...

JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. [12], So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

God's 4th commandments is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and just like any other of the 10 commandments if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. This is a teaching and tradition of men that has led many to break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9.

The question we must ask ourselves as we examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith *2 Corinthinans 13:5 is who are we believing and following; God or the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God? God is calling his people out wherever they may be back to the pure Word of God *Revelation 18:1-5. God's sheep hear his Voice and follow him (the Word). Those who are not his Sheep do not hear and do not follow *John 10:1-10; John 10:26-27. If we continue in his Word we are his disciples indeed and we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free *John 8:31-36. If we continue in sin we do not know him *1 John 2:3-4. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10 and breaking any one of God's 10 commandments is sin *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.

God's sheep hear his Voice and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow.

Brother the question we must ask ourselves when we examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not is who do we believe and follow?

Who do you believe and follow?

Redemptionsong said:

He becomes my Sabbath of peace. In Him, I am able to worship 'in Spirit and in truth'. In Him, I am able to truly love my neighbour. This can happen seven days a week, not one. Also, as regarding point 3, there is good reason to believe that the days recorded in Genesis 1,2, are days of a thousand years. The first two thousand years would refer to time without law; the second two thousand years to time under the law; and the third two thousand years to the Messianic era. This would leave one thousand years, a Sabbath day, of rest or peace on earth. In other words, Genesis 1,2 is a prologue indicating the timespan of the 'first heaven and earth'.

Click to expand...

No one has God's peace and rest if they do not believe and follow God's Word. JESUS is not the Sabbath. This claim is not biblical and you have no scripture to support your words. Matthew 12:8 is in reference to believing and following God's Word. The Sabbath is defined in God's Word as the "seventh day" of the week that God's people enter into as they believe and follow his Word that God commands his people to keep as a Holy day as a memorial of creation *Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Matthew 12:8; Hebrews 4:1-9. God's Word says that creation was made in 7 days. There is no scripture that says creation was made in 7000 years. The scripture says seven days *Genesis 1 and Genesis 2:1-3. Your trying to read into God's Word something that it does not say with your words that are not God's. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4; Matthew 15:9. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

Does anyone want to discuss the OP now which is about Colossians 2:16 - Are you being told the truth? Seems everyone wants to discuss anything else except the OP.

[QUOTE

Do you love JESUS Redemptionsong?

JESUS says; IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS *John 14:15....

How can we know if we really know God or if we are deceiving ourselves?

1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Sin which is defined as breaking any one of God's 10 commandments * James 2:10-11 is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Matthew 7:22-27; Hebrews 10:26-39.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.[/QUOTE]



The question that your references demand is, 'WHICH COMMANDMENTS?

Now, the Holy Spirit is my teacher. So what does the Lord say?

Matthew 19:16-22:
'And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast , and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.'

Compare this with Mark 10:17-31.

Have you noticed which of the commandments have NOT been included?

Tell me, 3rdAngel, am I condemned by the Word of the Lord for not observing the Friday/Saturday Sabbath?

The young man asked Jesus, What lack I yet? Jesus could have added the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy. He didn't. Jesus said, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast.

3rdAngel said:

IS COLOSSIANS 2 SAYING THAT WE ARE NO LONGER TO KEEP GOD'S SABBATH?

Click to expand...

2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

The word holyday is festival. As in the Feast of Tabernacles...

Strong's Greek Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com

2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

We're not "dead with" the Christ of Matthew and John... Jesus never taught any such thing.

In fact, Jesus tells us that HE will judge us in regards to meat... in Revelation 2.
But Paul says you can sit at meat in the temple of the demon.
In fact, Pergamos, where Satan has his seat... must have taught something similar.
________________________
There really needs to be a separate forum for Pauline Gnosticism... but then, what would y'all have to talk about, since Jesus of Matthew and John is extremely hard to misunderstand.

OtherSheep said:

2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

The word holyday is festival. As in the Feast of Tabernacles...

Strong's Greek Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com

2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

We're not "dead with" the Christ of Matthew and John... Jesus never taught any such thing.

In fact, Jesus tells us that HE will judge us in regards to meat... in Revelation 2.
But Paul says you can sit at meat in the temple of the demon.
In fact, Pergamos, where Satan has his seat... must have taught something similar.
________________________
There really needs to be a separate forum for Pauline Gnosticism... but then, what would y'all have to talk about, since Jesus of Matthew and John is extremely hard to misunderstand.

Click to expand...

Thank you brother OtherSheep, I am kind of shocked someone wants to talk about the OP here.

God bless

Redemptionsong said:

...
The question that your references demand is, 'WHICH COMMANDMENTS?

Now, the Holy Spirit is my teacher. So what does the Lord say?

Matthew 19:16-22:
'And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast , and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.'

Compare this with Mark 10:17-31.

Have you noticed which of the commandments have NOT been included?

Tell me, 3rdAngel, am I condemned by the Word of the Lord for not observing the Friday/Saturday Sabbath?

The young man asked Jesus, What lack I yet? Jesus could have added the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy. He didn't. Jesus said, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast.

Click to expand...

Jesus, in Matthew 19:16-22, listed certain commandments from the second Table of the Ten Commandments, since the issue with the rich young ruler, was his 'love of neighbour' (Leviticus 19:17-18; Matthew 19:19), notice in vss 18-19:


Jesus was indirectly, or discreetly, pointing this young man, to the 10th commandment. Look at the order, in which Jesus specifically gave, 6,7,8,9 & 5. The mind of the young man, knowing the Law of God, would have immediately noticed 10 was not spoken. Jesus addressed this in the following verse:

The man's issue was covetousness, the Tenth Commandment. While claiming to have kept God's Law, he was in actuality breaking all of it (as James points out, and Paul), through covetousness (see Romans 7:7) and withholding from his near-brethren (neighbours).

You seem to point to the fact that Jesus did not list the Sabbath commandment. Jesus also didn't mention anything about the first 3 commandments (not just the 4th), as in not having other Gods, or idols, or taking the name of the Lord in vain either in these passages. Should they (1-3) be relegated to the same position that you have for sabbath-keeping (4)? The argument is self-refuting, for in so doing, a person would then not have to obey any laws of the LORD (JEHOVAH Elohiym), as they all came from Him, being a transcript of His perfect character (Exodus 33:12-12, 34:1-9, 20:5-7).

Jesus said,

Jesus touched on the real issue.