New Ohio law allows students to be scientifically wrong.

Polymath257 · Nov 15, 2019

The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

ChristineM · Nov 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

What?

I had to double check this wasn't in the jokes section.

Polymath257 · Nov 15, 2019

And, of course, every Republican supported this bill.

Polymath257 · Nov 15, 2019

ChristineM said:
What?

I had to double check this wasn't in the jokes section.

Oh, I *wish* it was a joke. The anti-science nuts are in force in the US right now.

ChristineM · Nov 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
Oh, I *wish* it was a joke. The anti-science nuts are in force in the US right now.

Yes, i know, it's a very sad state of affairs?

I am afraid there are no appropriate frubs

Quintessence · Nov 15, 2019

Here's what the bill actually says minus the spin:

Sec. 3320.03. No school district board of education, governing authority of a community school established under Chapter 3314. of the Revised Code, governing body of a STEM school established under Chapter 3326. of the Revised Code, or board of trustees of a college-preparatory boarding school established under Chapter 3328. of the Revised Code shall prohibit a student from engaging in religious expression in the completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments. Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work.

Polymath257 · Nov 15, 2019

Quintessence said:
Here's what the bill actually says minus the spin:

Sec. 3320.03. No school district board of education, governing authority of a community school established under Chapter 3314. of the Revised Code, governing body of a STEM school established under Chapter 3326. of the Revised Code, or board of trustees of a college-preparatory boarding school established under Chapter 3328. of the Revised Code shall prohibit a student from engaging in religious expression in the completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments. Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work.

Which seems to be exactly what I said. The religious views are NOT relevant in the science classroom. This bill introduces such and says that they cannot be penalized for getting the science wrong if their religious convictions are different than the science.

Ponder This · Nov 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

This appears to be the section you are talking about?

"
Sec. 3320.03.
No school district board of education, governing authority of a community school established under Chapter 3314. of the Revised Code, governing body of a STEM school established under Chapter 3326. of the Revised Code, or board of trustees of a college-preparatory boarding school established under Chapter 3328. of the Revised Code shall prohibit a student from engaging in religious expression in the completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments. Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance,including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work.
"

I'm not sure I understand the problem if: "Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work."

That means that you cannot reward a student who gives a religious answer to a scientific question concerning evolution. Does it not?

Am I missing something? Can you provide more context for the issue? Or explain what I'm missing?

Jedster · Nov 15, 2019

Quintessence said:
Here's what the bill actually says minus the spin:

Sec. 3320.03. No school district board of education, governing authority of a community school established under Chapter 3314. of the Revised Code, governing body of a STEM school established under Chapter 3326. of the Revised Code, or board of trustees of a college-preparatory boarding school established under Chapter 3328. of the Revised Code shall prohibit a student from engaging in religious expression in the completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments. Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work.

Those following the beliefs of @wizanda will have a field day in propagation. Particularly those doing computer science.
I can just imagine how questions on the CPU will be answered.

Earthtank · Nov 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong

All they are doing is catching up to the extreme liberals

Quintessence · Nov 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
Which seems to be exactly what I said. The religious views are NOT relevant in the science classroom. This bill introduces such and says that they cannot be penalized for getting the science wrong if their religious convictions are different than the science.

But that's not what it says. It doesn't mention "science classrooms" at all. Assumptions have to be made to get from what the bill says to what the writer of the article (and you) are saying. What is the basis for those assumptions? More importantly, what evidence is there that this bill would be interpreted by individual teachers in the manner you suppose? I mean, it really doesn't matter what the legislators think. At the end of the day, teachers are fairly independent when it comes to how they conduct things in their classrooms. When I read verbiage like "ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance" that sure sounds like "as teachers, we're still going to hold students accountable for learning in a way that matches up with the ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance for a given subject because... duh?" What the bill prohibits is discrimination against a student for religious views, which frankly, is a good thing.

That's not to say that there's not potential for abuse, but I think the person who picked up on this story is making mountains out of molehills. It's not like this is a bill that explicitly mandates inclusion of non-scientific narratives in a science classroom.

Ponder This · Nov 15, 2019

Quintessence said:
Here's what the bill actually says minus the spin:

Sec. 3320.03. No school district board of education, governing authority of a community school established under Chapter 3314. of the Revised Code, governing body of a STEM school established under Chapter 3326. of the Revised Code, or board of trustees of a college-preparatory boarding school established under Chapter 3328. of the Revised Code shall prohibit a student from engaging in religious expression in the completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments. Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work.

Indeed. What do people who object to this section think it should actually say? As far as I can tell it looks like objectors have failed basic reading comprehension. Do they prefer it to say that student's shall be penalized or rewarded based on religious content? Because the section says the opposite of that.

Quintessence · Nov 15, 2019

Ponder This said:
That means that you cannot reward a student who gives a religious answer to a scientific question concerning evolution. Does it not?

That's how it reads to me. It creates some complications for grading and assessment, certainly. What you'd probably want to do as an instructor is create a threshold for minimum points needed to pass the class or get a certain grade (if you don't already). Answers to questions that don't align with the ordinary academic standards for a history course, philosophy course, chemistry course, or whatever would be nulled out but if the student failed to accrue enough points they would still fail because... well, they should. They didn't learn the content. Basically, there's ways to comply with the bill and still ensure academic standards are kept. The issue will come up so rarely it isn't worth making a big fuss over on the whole.

exchemist · Nov 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

The joke is it is generally the Religious Right that inveighs against relativism. But now, suddenly, it is mandatory!

Quintessence · Nov 15, 2019

To be fair - and because I'm not that naive - there may be some additional context here with the development of this bill, the folks lobbying for it, and the folks who voted for it that would serve to legitimize concerns that this will water down science curricula specifically. It would be interesting to see that investigated and/or presented.

Brickjectivity · Nov 15, 2019

Quintessence said:
But that's not what it says. It doesn't mention "science classrooms" at all. Assumptions have to be made to get from what the bill says to what the writer of the article (and you) are saying. What is the basis for those assumptions? More importantly, what evidence is there that this bill would be interpreted by individual teachers in the manner you suppose? I mean, it really doesn't matter what the legislators think. At the end of the day, teachers are fairly independent when it comes to how they conduct things in their classrooms. When I read verbiage like "ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance" that sure sounds like "as teachers, we're still going to hold students accountable for learning in a way that matches up with the ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance for a given subject because... duh?" What the bill prohibits is discrimination against a student for religious views, which frankly, is a good thing.

That's not to say that there's not potential for abuse, but I think the person who picked up on this story is making mountains out of molehills. It's not like this is a bill that explicitly mandates inclusion of non-scientific narratives in a science classroom.

I think you're right and that it means that a student may say "The answer is that according to the texbook and generally accepted research dinosaurs lived in this period, even though I personally don't believe it." This is far from allowing students to avoid learning the material. It lets them object to the material while still requiring that they learn it.

shmogie · Nov 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

It is not appropriate. Students in public schools should learn the limitations of science in relation to religion at home or in Church.

Terry Sampson · Nov 15, 2019

Brickjectivity said:
This is far from allowing students to avoid learning the material.

I concur. I read:

Quintessence said:
Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work.

Teacher says to students: "Okay, kids, your work in this class will be graded based on your ability to give me a class-related "work product" based on lectures, discussions, assigned readings, etc. However, you will not get extra credit nor be penalized for wasting your time giving me religious crap."

On the other hand, IMO, I foresee a potential problem arising if and when a student submits classroom work-product that has 100% religious content and no appropriate scientific content, and then whines that they spent so much time putting the religious-based product together that they didn't have time to get around to the appropriate scientific-based product.

Jose Fly · Nov 15, 2019

Ponder This said:
Am I missing something? Can you provide more context for the issue? Or explain what I'm missing?

The bill specifies "written assignments" such as homework and says that a student cannot be penalized "based on the religious content of their work". So theoretically, if a student answers the question "What is the age of the earth" with "The Word of God teaches that the earth is no more than 10,000 years old", and the teacher marks the answer wrong (thereby penalizing the student), the teacher could be in violation of the law (if this becomes law as is).

I realize it also says grades and scores will be "calculated using ordinary standards", but that's a testament to just how poorly this bill is written.

Perhaps a bigger question regarding this bill is......what exactly is the intent? Students are already free to express their religious beliefs in school, so what exactly is the point of the bill? Seems to me like it might be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

dybmh · Nov 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

I'm from Ohio. I'm not surprised, unfortunately. There are a lot of religious, anti-science folks in Ohio.

My brother and his wife are both middle school teachers in Ohio. And their school board has in the past attempted some bizarre policies regarding introducing religion into the publicly-funded, secular middle school where they both work.

The last time we spoke about it, I think it was the teacher's union which was able to shut down the initiative.

New Ohio law allows students to be scientifically wrong.

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