Who are the "serpents"?

calm · Nov 13, 2019

The book of Enoch says in chapter 20:

1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
(book of Enoch translated by Robert Henry Charles) The Book of Enoch (Charles) - Wikisource, the free online library

I know that Cherubim are not angels but other spirits beings, but what and who are the "serpents "?
What do you think?

Fool · Nov 13, 2019

calm said:
The book of Enoch says in chapter 20:

1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
(book of Enoch translated by Robert Henry Charles) The Book of Enoch (Charles) - Wikisource, the free online library

I know that Cherubim are not angels but other spirits beings, but what and who are the "serpents "?
What do you think?

serpents are prophets, soothsayers.

serpent = nachash

the nachash in genesis 3:1 is a noun. it is derived from a verb nachash. like a baker is derived from baking or the noun writer is derived from the verb writing. they are called verb nouns.

the noun nachash comes from the root word nachash the verb.

1 Samuel 9:9
(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was before time called a Seer.)

seer

Brickjectivity · Nov 13, 2019

calm said:
The book of Enoch says in chapter 20:

1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
(book of Enoch translated by Robert Henry Charles) The Book of Enoch (Charles) - Wikisource, the free online library

I know that Cherubim are not angels but other spirits beings, but what and who are the "serpents "?
What do you think?

I have never read it before. It fires my imagination, though. I think this is where Neil Gaiman may be getting some of the inspiration for his material. He's a fantasy writer who's very popular and borrows imagery from this I think.

Tumah · Nov 13, 2019

calm said:
I know that Cherubim are not angels but other spirits beings, but what and who are the "serpents "?

I don't know what you mean by the introduction to your question, but the word "serpents" is probably meant to refer to angels who are also called "Seraphim", which may be a word you've heard.

The root s-r-ph means to burn, and it's also used in reference to snakes - I assume, venomous ones. In Num. 21:6, the people die from the bit of ha'n'ḥashim ha's'raphim the fiery snakes.

In Isa. 6:2, the word is also introduced as referring to angels. Probably relating to a fiery nature (see Psa. 104:4). I assume the translator either conflated them purposely or accidentally.

There are a number of names in Hebrew, by which angels are called. According to later Jewish sources, including, apparently as you've quoted, the book of Enoch, rather than relate to them as synonyms for angels, we understand them to be separate categories of angels.

leov · Nov 13, 2019

calm said:
The book of Enoch says in chapter 20:

1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
(book of Enoch translated by Robert Henry Charles) The Book of Enoch (Charles) - Wikisource, the free online library

I know that Cherubim are not angels but other spirits beings, but what and who are the "serpents "?
What do you think?

shunyadragon · Nov 13, 2019

calm said:
The book of Enoch says in chapter 20:

1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
(book of Enoch translated by Robert Henry Charles) The Book of Enoch (Charles) - Wikisource, the free online library

I know that Cherubim are not angels but other spirits beings, but what and who are the "serpents "?
What do you think?

Mythical creatures.

dybmh · Nov 13, 2019

It seems like a look at the Hebrew in the text would be helpful, right?

Fool · Nov 13, 2019

dybmh said:
It seems like a look at the Hebrew in the text would be helpful, right?

as wise as serpents, the most subtil of creatures but innocent as doves. in ireland they were called the naddred. it was these that ole patty boy came a troubling

there is a place in ireland called naas. the city seal is telling

Symbolism of the Serpent

just so you and i are on the same page, it has been proven that ireland's name is derived from it's iran and middle east influence, aryan. the people's dna of ireland has a direct connection to a migration out of the middle-east.

truth is stranger than fiction

Ancient Irish had Middle Eastern ancestry, study reveals

Iran as the Historical Tri-Continental Bridge, and Ireland? An Ethno-Cultural and Etymological Interconnectedness

Thief · Nov 13, 2019

I always thought ( and post)…
the word serpent was a description of character
rather than form

and the catch phrase.....snake in the grass
comes to mind

Fool · Nov 13, 2019

Thief said:
I always thought ( and post)…
the word serpent was a description of character
rather than form

and the catch phrase.....snake in the grass
comes to mind

The priests, then, and champions of the system, have been first those who have been called Naasseni,7 being so denominated from the Hebrew language, for the serpent is called naas

Thief · Nov 13, 2019

Fool said:
The priests, then, and champions of the system, have been first those who have been called Naasseni,7 being so denominated from the Hebrew language, for the serpent is called naas

to be wise as serpents.....
does not include......grace

Fool · Nov 13, 2019

Thief said:
to be wise as serpents.....
does not include......grace

with love comes light, wisdom. the awe of love is the beginning of wisdom, understanding.

sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

put you're rose colored glasses back on and party on.

The Law of One Search Results for ‘love/light light/love’

Native · Nov 14, 2019

In Norse Mythology there is a serpent called The Midgaard Serpent which encircles Midgaard, the home of humans i.e. the Earth. If so, we have an astronomical/cosmological explanation which possibly could be the contours of the Milky Way which is observable all around the Earth.

dybmh · Nov 15, 2019

dybmh said:
It seems like a look at the Hebrew in the text would be helpful, right?

@calm, I couldn't find a Hebrew version of the Book of Enoch. However, I did find an english translation which validates what Tumah provided.

In The Complete Books of Enoch by Dr. A Nyland, The word in question "serpents" is left untranslated as Seraphim. Not Nachaschim So...

These serpents would not be the at all related to the Adam and Eve story... or the Tribe of Dan. They really are angels. At least that's what it seems.

Here's the passage:

Here's the interlinear Genesis 3:1 and Genesis 49:17 from biblehub.com, just for comparison. As you can see the word seraph, seraphim, or variants are not in these verses. Those are different. These verses use the word Nachash ( H5175 ) and Sh'phiphon ( H8207 ).

Here's the interlinear of Isaiah 6:2 from biblehub.com showing the word Seraphim which matches what is ( theoretically ) in the Book of Enoch 20:7.

I say theoretically, because I have seen too many misquotes of Hebrew Texts to believe anything of this nature until I can see the actual Hebrew letters of the word in question. In this case, we still don't know which word is used in Enoch. But to quote the magic 8-ball... Sources point to 'Seraphim' not 'Nachashim' which means they are angels not actual slithering snakes or some other ..ahem .. unsavory elements.

Native · Nov 15, 2019

dybmh said:
These serpents would not be the at all related to the Adam and Eve story... or the Tribe of Dan. They really are angels. At least that's what it seems.

The Adam and Eve snake isn´t what we are told to believe either. This story describe the cosmological conditions in the creation where the snake resembles the coiling structure of the Milky Way from where all life and humans as well descends, hence the term of the Garden of Eden, the heavenly paradise location of creation itself.

dybmh · Nov 15, 2019

Native said:
The Adam and Eve snake isn´t what we are told to believe either. This story describe the cosmological conditions in the creation where the snake resembles the coiling structure of the Milky Way from where all life and humans as well descends, hence the term of the Garden of Eden, the heavenly paradise location of creation itself.

Thank you.

dybmh · Nov 15, 2019

@calm, Here is the relevant excerpt of the entry on Seraphim in A Dictionary of Angles, by Gustav Davidson. Pg. 267. It mentions their inclusion in the Book of Enoch specifically.

Seraphim ( pl. for seraph ) -- the highest order of angels in the pseudo-Dionysian hierarchic scheme and generally also in Jewish Lore. The seraphim surround the throne of Glory and unceasingly intone the trisagion (" holy holy holy "). They are angels of love, light, and of fire. How many are there? The answer ( in 3 Enoch ) is 4, "corresponding to the 4 winds of the world." ... According to Enoch II, the seraphim have 4 faces and 6 wings as in Isaiah 6.

The Dictionary said the seraphim are described in 2nd Book of Enoch. I searched wikisource ( website you used in the OP ) and found the references to the seraphim. I also searched for serpent.

The word seraphim occurs 3 times. Here are the verses. Note: each time the seraphim are with the cherubim... just like it's listed in 1st Book of Enoch 20:7. Also.. note that Gabriel makes an appearance along with the "seraphim-and-cherubim".

Chapter 20
1 And those two men lifted me up thence on to the seventh heaven, and I saw there a very great light, and fiery troops of great archangels, incorporeal forces, and dominions, orders and governments, Cherubim and seraphim, thrones and many-eyed ones, nine regiments, the Ioanit stations of light, and I became afraid, and began to tremble with great terror, and those men took me, and led me after them, and said to me:

Chapter 21
1 And the Cherubim and seraphim standing about the throne, the six-winged and many-eyed ones do not depart, standing before the Lord’s face doing his will, and cover his whole throne, singing with gentle voice before the Lord’s face: Holy, holy, holy, Lord Ruler of Sabaoth, heavens and earth are full of Your glory.

2 When I saw all these things, those men said to me: Enoch, thus far is it commanded us to journey with you, and those men went away from me and thereupon I saw them not.

3 And I remained alone at the end of the seventh heaven and became afraid, and fell on my face and said to myself: Woe is me, what has befallen me?

4 And the Lord sent one of his glorious ones, the archangel Gabriel, and (he) said to me: Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise before the Lord’s face into eternity, arise, come with me.

5 And I answered him, and said in myself: My Lord, my soul is departed from me, from terror and trembling, and I called to the men who led me up to this place, on them I relied, and (it is) with them I go before the Lord’s face.

6 And Gabriel caught me up, as a leaf caught up by the wind, and placed me before the Lord’s face.

Chapter 22
3 And who am I to tell of the Lord’s unspeakable being, and of his very wonderful face? And I cannot tell the quantity of his many instructions, and various voices, the Lord's throne (is) very great and not made with hands, nor the quantity of those standing round him, troops of Cherubim and seraphim, nor their incessant singing, nor his immutable beauty, and who shall tell of the ineffable greatness of his glory.

Here's an example of "serpent" in 2nd book of Enoch. Notice the description: "sharp teeth" Not all "fiery", just their eyes. No "Cherubim". No "Gabriel". This is different. This is more of slithery-snake? Maybe? But it's not the same as 1st Enoch 20:7. Also note. these are down... not up.

Chapter 42
1 I saw the key-holders and guards of the gates of hell standing, like great serpents, and their faces like extinguishing lamps, and their eyes of fire, their sharp teeth, and I saw all the Lord’s works, how they are right, while the works of man are some (good), and others bad, and in their works are known those who lie evilly.

If you take all of this into account...

In support of "The Serpents are Seraphim":

The translation from Dr. Nyland,
the entry in the Dictionary of Angels, and
the 2nd Book of Enoch ( verses listed above )

The seraphim, cherubim, and Gabriel are all connected and described in exactly the same way that serpents, cherubim, and Gabriel are described in the translation of 1st Enoch 20:7 in the OP.

Further, the "serpent" in 2nd Book of Enoch ( 42:1 ) is more 'snake-like' and it's missing elements ( cherubim and Gabriel ).

Therefore. I'm quite certain:

You asked "who are the serpents" in 1st Enoch 20:7, the ones who belong to Gabriel...

It's "seraphim" translated to serpent. They're angels. Not guards to the "gates of Hell".

Petejb3391 · Dec 22, 2023

calm said:
The book of Enoch says in chapter 20:

1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
(book of Enoch translated by Robert Henry Charles) The Book of Enoch (Charles) - Wikisource, the free online library

I know that Cherubim are not angels but other spirits beings, but what and who are the "serpents "?
What do you think?

The serpents are literally serpents, intelligent entities capable of unique abilities.

shunyadragon · Dec 22, 2023

Petejb3391 said:
The serpents are literally serpents, intelligent entities capable of unique abilities.

What physical evidence is there for these intelligent serpents?

JustGeorge · Dec 22, 2023

shunyadragon said:
What physical evidence is there for these intelligent serpents?

Well, this is interfaith, and not a debate area, but I can tell you the snakes we keep here are pretty smart.

Except the king snake. Exiting the cage in a house full of cats was a poor choice, and now he is no more.

Who are the "serpents"?

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