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In your understanding, What did Jesus mean by this?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
yes it does. i showed you in the definition that person, a man is in contrast to god.


why are you ignoring that it emphatically states a person is in contrast to god?


here is the link again. under definition 1 and subsection C for the word man used in numbers 23:19 and the hebrew word 'iysh


human being, person (in contrast to God)


strong's H120 which is usually translated as man can literally be translated as person

Num 5:6

Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men H120 commit, to do a trespass against the LORD, and that person be guilty;

Job 32:21

Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. H120

Pro 6:12

A naughty person, H120 a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.

Pro 28:17

A man H120 that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay him.

Eze 44:25

And they shall come at no dead person H120 to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.




Jesus never says god is a person. that is you projecting your belief into what isn't there. self is not necessarily a person. it is a being but not a person. a spirit can have a sense of self and not be a person/human being. adam was the first person created by god.

all mankind is the son of god. why were you instructed to pray "Our Father"? or why did malachi say as such in malachi 2:10?

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

or why again did jesus speak of "your" father?

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.




i'm not a believer.

actually you're the believer creating what the bible calls god in the image of a person. you practice a form of idolatry called anthropolatry.


numbers 23:19 can also be translated as god is not a person.


or can be translated this way from the hebrew tanakh

לֹ֣א אִ֥ישׁ אֵל֙ וִֽיכַזֵּ֔ב וּבֶן־אָדָ֖ם וְיִתְנֶחָ֑ם הַה֤וּא אָמַר֙ וְלֹ֣א יַעֲשֶׂ֔ה וְדִבֶּ֖ר וְלֹ֥א יְקִימֶֽנָּה׃
God is not man to be capricious, Or mortal to change His mind. Would He speak and not act, Promise and not fulfill?

or another form of transliteration

יטלֹ֣א אִ֥ישׁ אֵל֙ וִֽיכַזֵּ֔ב וּבֶן־אָדָ֖ם וְיִתְנֶחָ֑ם הַה֤וּא אָמַר֙ וְלֹ֣א יַֽעֲשֶׂ֔ה וְדִבֶּ֖ר וְלֹ֥א יְקִימֶֽנָּה:
God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?




self doesn't necessarily mean a person even though its referencing a being in john 17:5. adam was the first person. before adam, before the world was created there was still being but no persons.

(Num.23:19)---man---Strongs identification, #376
(Num 5:6)---person---Strongs id, #5315
(Job 32:21)---person---Strongs id, #6440
(Pro. 6:12)---person---Strongs id, #120
(Pro. 28:17)---person---Strongs id, #5315
(Eze. 44:25)---person---Strongs id, #120

Well, yes, self does speak to personality. A person.

I say 'Our Father' because God is my Father. As He is to all those who are his. Malachi was speaking to the believing. Just as the believing have one Father, so also those who are not his children, God hates. (Malachi 1:2)

(Matt. 5:48) offers nothing to you in whatever you are trying to say.

You're not a believer? Surprise, surprise. Yet you are the supposed expert on the believers book, the Bible.

God created both the creation, and Adam. God is separate from His creation.

Believe what you want. Quit trying to conform the Bible to your beliefs.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 
I understand that the origional greek word is 'entos' which means both 'within' and also 'among' depending on the context. Jesus was stood amongst them as the King of Israel [Deuteronomy 32:8-9 + 1 Kings 8:17 + Isaiah 44:6]. As he stood amongst all the people and leaders of Israel he, their King, rightly said "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you". [Luke 23:3 + 38] They were his kingdom as only the people themselves make up a kingdom. Later on Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world" [John 18:35-37]. Once they had rejected him, they no longer formed a part of his kingdom.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I understand that the origional greek word is 'entos' which means both 'within' and also 'among' depending on the context. Jesus was stood amongst them as the King of Israel [Deuteronomy 32:8-9 + 1 Kings 8:17 + Isaiah 44:6]. As he stood amongst all the people and leaders of Israel he, their King, rightly said "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you". [Luke 23:3 + 38] They were his kingdom as only the people themselves make up a kingdom. Later on Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world" [John 18:35-37]. Once they had rejected him, they no longer formed a part of his kingdom.


the personality jesus didn't exist until he came into that incarnation and had the experience of that timeline.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
What is your understanding of this bible verse? (same verse from different translations)
Does it mean you find God within you? Or does it mean something else in your understanding?

Luke 17:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’A) because the kingdom of God is in your midst
It's a spiritual Kingdom that exists in the hearts of the faithful, not a physical human kingdom.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
(Num.23:19)---man---Strongs identification, #376
i already know that. it doesn't refer to god. it refers to a human being.

god is all being; which goes beyond being just human, or a person


(Num 5:6)---person---Strongs id, #5315
doesn't refer to god. refers to a human being.

god is all being; which goes beyond being just human, or a mere person

(Job 32:21)---person---Strongs id, #6440
doesn't refer to god. refers to a human being.

god is all being; which goes beyond being just human, or a single person

(Matt. 5:48) offers nothing to you in whatever you are trying to say.
it claims god is the father of all.

god is all being; which goes beyond being just human, or just a certain person.

You're not a believer? Surprise, surprise. Yet you are the supposed expert on the believers book, the Bible.
Hmmmm, where do you suppose "I" claimed to be an expert?


God created both the creation, and Adam. God is separate from His creation.

Believe what you want. Quit trying to conform the Bible to your beliefs.

Good-Ole-Rebel
i don't believe. i know.


Luke 11:52
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
 
the personality jesus didn't exist until he came into that incarnation and had the experience of that timeline.
-------
I will try to show why I feel Jesus existed before he came to the earth. Please bear with me. We have a number of Greek copies of the original new testament text, so, despite being subject to the same transmission errors from the original to the copy, we have enough to ensure some measure of clarity on various topics.
'God... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds' [Hebrews 1:1-3].
The word 'Theos' translated as 'God' more specifically means 'The supreme God' in ancient Greek. He created the heavens and the earth by his 'Son' which is a translation of 'Hyios' that means 'son by birth or adoption'. The chapter goes on to declare:
'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
Next, God, the supreme Theos, states publically that he has anointed Jesus Christ, his Son by birth, to become a God:
‘Your throne, O God [Jesus], is for ever and ever, the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God [Supreme God], has anointed you [Jesus, the Son] with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.’
Now to list the great accomplishments that his Son has achieved, God the Father states once again, that it was Jesus who made the heavens and the earth:
‘You, Lord [Jesus], laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands... sit at my right hand’ [Hebrews 1:1-13 ESV].
You can almost taste the joy that the Father has in his son though these verses. Context about who created the heavens and the earth -and who was present in the beginning- is given by the book of Hebrews, along with a second witness of the same. The supreme God had anointed his Son, who was Lord over the whole earth, to be a God, and sit by his right hand side as an heir of Heaven. It was to this exalted station that Jesus was referring, when he prayed in Gethsemane.
‘And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was...Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.’ [John 17: 5-24]
Jesus, Yahweh, the King (and God) of Israel [Deut. 32:8-9], lived with the Supreme God, his father, in the eternities as a separate and individual God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, has existed before the creation of the earth, and did indeed, create the earth.
I hope this makes sense. I am trying to see things from the scripures.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
-------
I will try to show why I feel Jesus existed before he came to the earth. Please bear with me. We have a number of Greek copies of the original new testament text, so, despite being subject to the same transmission errors from the original to the copy, we have enough to ensure some measure of clarity on various topics.
'God... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds' [Hebrews 1:1-3].
The word 'Theos' translated as 'God' more specifically means 'The supreme God' in ancient Greek. He created the heavens and the earth by his 'Son' which is a translation of 'Hyios' that means 'son by birth or adoption'. The chapter goes on to declare:
'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
Next, God, the supreme Theos, states publically that he has anointed Jesus Christ, his Son by birth, to become a God:
‘Your throne, O God [Jesus], is for ever and ever, the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God [Supreme God], has anointed you [Jesus, the Son] with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.’
Now to list the great accomplishments that his Son has achieved, God the Father states once again, that it was Jesus who made the heavens and the earth:
‘You, Lord [Jesus], laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands... sit at my right hand’ [Hebrews 1:1-13 ESV].
You can almost taste the joy that the Father has in his son though these verses. Context about who created the heavens and the earth -and who was present in the beginning- is given by the book of Hebrews, along with a second witness of the same. The supreme God had anointed his Son, who was Lord over the whole earth, to be a God, and sit by his right hand side as an heir of Heaven. It was to this exalted station that Jesus was referring, when he prayed in Gethsemane.
‘And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was...Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.’ [John 17: 5-24]
Jesus, Yahweh, the King (and God) of Israel [Deut. 32:8-9], lived with the Supreme God, his father, in the eternities as a separate and individual God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, has existed before the creation of the earth, and did indeed, create the earth.
I hope this makes sense. I am trying to see things from the scripures.

a personality, in this case, jesus came forth as a babe. the uncreated creator cannot be begotten as jesus was begotten.

Ecclesiastes 3:18
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

jesus is not the supreme, absolute god. if jesus was the absolute, then you and i don't exist. you can't have an absolute and some otherness. this would negate the very thing that absolute, or supreme, exemplifies.

this is why it is written.


I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,


the el is the elohim but the elohim are not el


we are first introduced to el by melchizedek
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Ask neither there here nor there, but exactly where. There is no essence in living things, but that's not the same as demeanor; either personality, or glow. No center, but more of a trinity of mind, body, and spirit.
 
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a personality, in this case, jesus came forth as a babe. the uncreated creator cannot be begotten as jesus was begotten.

Ecclesiastes 3:18
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

jesus is not the supreme, absolute god. if jesus was the absolute, then you and i don't exist. you can't have an absolute and some otherness. this would negate the very thing that absolute, or supreme, exemplifies.

this is why it is written.


I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,


the el is the elohim but the elohim are not el


we are first introduced to el by melchizedek
------------
You are right that Jesus is not the supreme God, or Theos. His father was. The Bible has very few references to the Father of Yahweh. One of them is in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 where He is refered to as 'the most High' which is a translation of 'Elyown'. In these verses 'Elyown' is dealing directly with his Son 'Yahweh'. This is the same Yahweh translated as LORD in the quote of Isaiah 45. In that chapter Yahweh is describing how only he is the Lord of the earth as it is his handiwork. This is true for we know from Genesis 2:4 that it was indeed Yahweh who created the earth. It is his handiwork. His Father sits above him as previously mentioned in Hebrews.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
------------
You are right that Jesus is not the supreme God, or Theos. His father was. The Bible has very few references to the Father of Yahweh. One of them is in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 where He is refered to as 'the most High' which is a translation of 'Elyown'. In these verses 'Elyown' is dealing directly with his Son 'Yahweh'. This is the same Yahweh translated as LORD in the quote of Isaiah 45. In that chapter Yahweh is describing how only he is the Lord of the earth as it is his handiwork. This is true for we know from Genesis 2:4 that it was indeed Yahweh who created the earth. It is his handiwork. His Father sits above him as previously mentioned in Hebrews.
this yehovah from the OT can be understood as christ in the NT and agrees with exodus 3:14 and

yehovah = christ

psalms 46:10




yehovah is all and in all. this is why it is written the lord is with you.

joshua 1:9

isaiah 41:10

deuteronomy 31:6

zephaniah 3:17


i am in the father and father is in me.


john 14:20

this is why i am a gnostic. i know the father, the son, and the holy spirit.
 
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this yehovah from the OT can be understood as christ in the NT and agrees with exodus 3:14 and

yehovah = christ

psalms 46:10




yehovah is all and in all. this is why it is written the lord is with you.

joshua 1:9

isaiah 41:10

deuteronomy 31:6

zephaniah 3:17


i am in the father and father is in me.


john 14:20

this is why i am a gnostic. i know the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

Thank you
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
i already know that. it doesn't refer to god. it refers to a human being.

god is all being; which goes beyond being just human, or a person


doesn't refer to god. refers to a human being.

god is all being; which goes beyond being just human, or a mere person

doesn't refer to god. refers to a human being.

god is all being; which goes beyond being just human, or a single person

it claims god is the father of all.

god is all being; which goes beyond being just human, or just a certain person.

Hmmmm, where do you suppose "I" claimed to be an expert?


i don't believe. i know.


Luke 11:52
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

The point was the word used for 'man' and 'person' is not the same word.

You are not a believer in Christ. Yet you posture yourself as knowing the Bible, the Book that is for the believer, the Christian.

I am not sure what you 'know'. I know it isn't the Bible.

(Luke 11:52) has nothing to do with your argument.

know whatever you like, but don't conform the Bible to your beliefs.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The point was the word used for 'man' and 'person' is not the same word.

You are not a believer in Christ. Yet you posture yourself as knowing the Bible, the Book that is for the believer, the Christian.

I am not sure what you 'know'. I know it isn't the Bible.

(Luke 11:52) has nothing to do with your argument.

know whatever you like, but don't conform the Bible to your beliefs.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Fallacy ad hominem
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What is your understanding of this bible verse? (same verse from different translations)
Does it mean you find God within you? Or does it mean something else in your understanding?

Luke 17:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’A) because the kingdom of God is in your midst
My take on it, given the previous verse (Luke 17:20) and the understanding that Jesus is described as a Jewish scholar that therefore can reasonably be expected to know of the Jewish longing for the coming of the Messiah whose arrival prenounces a golden age, is that this verse is an appeal for people not to rely too much on prophecies and instead consider that good practice includes a measure of trust, expression and responsibility towards our own judgements and actions.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Typical

Good-Ole-Rebel
I have shown where the Bible explicitly stated God is not a man.

You have yet to show where the Bible explicitly stated that a man is God Most High, or El.

What someone thinks about someone else is irrelevant. Either they can prove their point, or they can't. But the truth isn't personal and God is not a respected of one person vs another.

Deuteronomy 10:17

this is also the reason why Jesus told a man who called him good Master not to call any man good because only God is good.

Mark 10:18
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
I have shown where the Bible explicitly stated God is not a man.

You have yet to show where the Bible explicitly stated that a man is God Most High, or El.

What someone thinks about someone else is irrelevant. Either they can prove their point, or they can't. But the truth isn't personal and God is not a respected of one person vs another.

Deuteronomy 10:17

this is also the reason why Jesus told a man who called him good Master not to call any man good because only God is good.

Mark 10:18

No. You have tried to form the Bible around your belief. You haven't shown anything to prove your belief. I haven't tried to show that man is God. I have shown that God is Person. Separate from His creation.

(Mark 10:18) doesn't prove anything about God not being a Person, having personality. Or being separate from His creation.

(Deut. 10:17) proves nothing about God not being a Person or having personality. Or being separate from His creation.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
What is your understanding of this bible verse? (same verse from different translations)
Does it mean you find God within you? Or does it mean something else in your understanding?

Luke 17:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’A) because the kingdom of God is in your midst
You are quoting it out of it's Christian context in Luke, which itself is a heavily redacted and expanded version of an original saying of Jesus.
The author of Matthew had earlier redacted the same original saying in a somewhat different way.
Both the author of Matthew and the author of Luke omitted different but essential parts of the original saying of Jesus in the process of christianizing it.

A reconstruction of the original saying is:

Q 17: 20b-21 / Luke 17: 20b-21 = Matthew 24: 26

20b The Rule of God does not come by observation [‘parateresos’]. 21 They should not say: “He can be observed in the wilderness, nor in the inner, secret chambers (of temples) [‘tameiois’]. For the Rule of God is within you! [‘entos humon’].

The original saying needs little explanation as the expanded Christian redacted text is absent and the original parts of the saying are reunited.
'Within you' means in your own subjective I-feeling, so not through the senses or through your thoughts or feelings and certainly not in any particular place such as in a cave, a remote forest or in the special (hidden) part of a temple.
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
No. You have tried to form the Bible around your belief. You haven't shown anything to prove your belief. I haven't tried to show that man is God. I have shown that God is Person. Separate from His creation.
belief is not necessary to show a bible verse that explains god is not a man. that isn't my belief. thats what the bible verse states unequivocally and obviously it threatens you.

numbers 23:19

(Mark 10:18) doesn't prove anything about God not being a Person, having personality. Or being separate from His creation.
mark 10:18 shows where jesus makes a distinction between god being good and himself as being the creation of god and not necessarily being good, or god. i never stated god was separate from its being creation. you did.

(Deut. 10:17) proves nothing about God not being a Person or having personality. Or being separate from His creation.

Good-Ole-Rebel
deuteronomy 10:17 shows that God is above gods; which jesus did claim to be. jesus claimed to be one of the gods, children of god. I never stated god the Absolute was separate from it's being creation.
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
You are quoting it out of it's Christian context in Luke, which itself is a heavily redacted and expanded version of an original saying of Jesus.
The author of Matthew had earlier redacted the same original saying in a somewhat different way.
Both the author of Matthew and the author of Luke omitted different but essential parts of the original saying of Jesus in the process of christianizing it.

A reconstruction of the original saying is:

Q 17: 20b-21 / Luke 17: 20b-21 = Matthew 24: 26

20b The Rule of God does not come by observation [‘parateresos’]. 21 They should not say: “He can be observed in the wilderness, nor in the inner, secret chambers (of temples) [‘tameiois’]. For the Rule of God is within you! [‘entos humon’].

The original saying needs little explanation as the expanded Christian redacted text is absent and the original parts of the saying are reunited.
'Within you' means in your own subjective I-feeling, so not through the senses or through your thoughts or feelings and certainly not in any particular place such as in a cave, a remote forest or in the special (hidden) part of a temple.


so then the rule of god could be understood as power of god, or spirit of god?


hesychasm?
 
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