• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Female Pastors? is it Biblical

leov

Well-Known Member
Throughout the entire Bible. Who were the leaders over the nation of Israel? Men. Who were the apostles, the governing body, etc....? Men.
20"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." And Mary was the one who saw risen Christ first.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Throughout the entire Bible. Who were the leaders over the nation of Israel? Men. Who were the apostles, the governing body, etc....? Men.
thanks for the reply, but a simple ... nope Deborah judge all Israel, including male and females.
and under Christ all leaders are to be SERVANTS. leadership is the FIRST TO SERVE.

PICJAG.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Now a general question. since women are prophets, (prophetess), and it is God who ordain prophets in his church, so women are in leadership position, supportive scripture. 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
set here is the word "ORDAIN" if God ordain prophets and woman are prophets, then there is no doubt about women in leadership roles.

PICJAG.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
With that said, "Can holy women/females in Christ be pastors, bishops, and overseers in the body, the Church that he the Lord Jesus built?". if one have a view, or comment, pro, or con, let them be posted with supportive scripture to establish the claim....

Jesus said:

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12

If we are disciples of Jesus, I think we should live according to that.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
And that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
OT rules is not what God's idea of acceptable terms of admitting souls in Heaven. Good consciousness is. So referring of male domination in OT times is something that new consciousness would not accommodate. That is what makes that verse from Matthew very relevant.
 
OT rules is not what God's idea of acceptable terms of admitting souls in Heaven. Good consciousness is. So referring of male domination in OT times is something that new consciousness would not accommodate. That is what makes that verse from Matthew very relevant.

You're still ranting about the irrelevant.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I believe that this pertains only to those given an invitation to rule with Christ in his Kingdom. These become spirit creatures who have a specific role. As spirit 'kings and priests' in heaven, gender plays no role. (Revelation 20:6)



In the earthly realm of God's Kingdom, in Israel there were never any female priests or teachers.

Ephesians 4:7-8...
"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,

“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.” (NASB)


Paul is here quoting Psalm 68:18

In the qualifications for elders in the Christian congregation 1 Timothy 3:says...
"It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

No mention of women in this role.



Jeremiah 3:15...
"Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding."

Shepherds of the flock in Bible times were always men, both in Israel and in Christianity. It wasn't that women could not teach because they were instructors of their own children (Proverbs 1:8) and any others who wanted to learn about God....but teaching in the congregation was reserved for males only.

Ephesians 5:22-24...
"Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."

This "subjection" does not sit well with today's women who see equality as their right....but God is the one who designed the sexes to be complimentary.....not competitive. This was not condoning dictatorship because it was based on Christ's treatment of his disciples.....always loving.

In Genesis 2:18 it says...
"Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”

The role of a wife was to be the support crew....the "helper". The husband is head of his wife like Christ is the head of the congregation. God has never changed that arrangement.



When 1 Corinthians was written, Paul also wrote this.....
1Timothy 2:11-13...
" A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."

So Paul acknowledged God's creation of woman as a support partner. She was not permitted to exercise authority over a man as this was not God arrangement.

1 Corinthians 11:3; 8-9.....
"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ......For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake."

Again, this would not sit well with many of today's women but it was God's arrangement from the beginning. Gender roles were set by our Creator. The thing to note however is that Christ is subject to God....the man is subject to Christ. There is order in God's arrangement.

Those are my scriptural reasons for women keeping to their God assigned role. No women Pastors.
I agree with almost all of this.

However, I believe men and women are equal, with different roles to play in the Church, and in the home.

How do we measure equality ? In my view, it is the value God gives to all people of both sexes. Three is no difference.

Teaching is one of a Pastors most important roles, as quoted above, women are not to be teachers, they have other responsibilities.

If both sexes, by the Spirit, accept and perform their responsibilities, the home, and the church functions properly, and are blessed.

( Dejee, I am working on your list of verses we discussed)
 

101G

Well-Known Member
I agree with almost all of this.

However, I believe men and women are equal, with different roles to play in the Church, and in the home.

How do we measure equality ? In my view, it is the value God gives to all people of both sexes. Three is no difference.

Teaching is one of a Pastors most important roles, as quoted above, women are not to be teachers, they have other responsibilities.

If both sexes, by the Spirit, accept and perform their responsibilities, the home, and the church functions properly, and are blessed.

( Dejee, I am working on your list of verses we discussed)
First thanks for the reply. but we must disagree with your assessment about women not teaching. women can teach, for a bishop is a teacher, "apt to teach". and women as bishops have been establish. but was not the Lord Jesus himself a prophet, and did he not teach? and women are prophets. another woman teacher.
Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly".
the scripture clearly states "they" took him unto "them". so they both instructed/taught him.

and at home, 1 Peter 3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;"
1 Peter 3:2 "While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear."

so a wife who knows the word of God may teach her husband who don't know.

PICJAG.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Throughout the entire Bible. Who were the leaders over the nation of Israel? Men. Who were the apostles, the governing body, etc....? Men.
Well... I don't know about the others you mentioned. But here's an example that denies the stereotype: Rabbi Meir's wife... she's considered a Sage in the Talmud.

"Bruriah (Hebrew: ברוריה, also Beruriah) is one of several women quoted as a sage in the Talmud. She was the wife of the Tanna Rabbi Meir and the daughter of Hananiah ben Teradion."

( source )

Also: There's stories of Rabbi Meir's Maid in the Talmud which illustrate that a female servant was able to execute authority over men.

One such story is in Moed Katan Chapter 3( A book from the Talmud ): here's the quote translated in English:

"What was the occurrence with the maid-servant of the house of Rabbi? The maid-servant of the house of Rabbi saw once one beating his grown-up son, and she said: "Let that man be under the ban, for he has transgressed the commandment [Lev. xix. 14]: 'Thou shalt not put a stumbling-block before the blind."

According to the story, the individual was deemed guilty, at least for 3 years. After that, I'm not sure. It's just a story.

Also, Rabbi Meir's maid, according to the story, had authority to ask the students of Rabbi Meir ( all men presumably ) that it was time to leave... no more wine... go home... That's in Eruvin 53b ( another book in the Talmud ).

Perhaps the best thing to keep in mind when it comes to the Judaic side of gender issues is: don't believe the hype. It's not as bad as it seems.

"Torah and virtue transcend gender and imbue those who have internalized them with power regardless of their gender or their worldly status"

Source: The Women of The Talmud: Judith Z Abrams. Page 87
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm sorry I missed this quote, may we can address it now. we made reference to it but now will address it directly. the qualification as said was directed at men who was married and with a "DESIRE" to obtain the office. if these qualification for a Pastor/Bishop, was only for men, (males), then we have a question. Paul the Apostle, who also was a Bishop/Pastor was not Married, and he was in that office/work. so what's the exception?

One of the qualifications of a man seeking an appointment of service in the congregation was to be the husband of one wife (not polygamous) and obviously if the man who offered his services to the congregation was not married, then the rest of the qualifications still applied.

What I think is getting lost in this discussion is the roles played by the various positions in the original Christian arrangement. There seems to be a disparity between what those roles entailed back then and what they came to mean in an apostate church system in later centuries....when they became positions of rank and authority.

When you think of a Pastor, this man was a shepherd. He was responsible for feeding (spiritually) and guiding the flock, who were not his sheep, but God’s. What do people think a priest, or a minister or a pastor or a deacon or a bishop is today, compared with what those terms meant in the first century?

Jesus Christ, established a basic pattern for overseers, when he said: You know that among the pagans the rulers lord it over them, and their great men make their authority felt. This is not to happen among you. . . . Anyone who wants to be first among you must be your slave, just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28 Catholic Jerusalem Bible)

Peter wrote his words at 1 Peter 5:1 to the “older men.” The Greek word Peter used for “older men” was pre·sby·teʹrous, from which the word “priest” is derived. In Christendom “bishops” are now considered superior to “priests.” But when the apostle Paul “sent to Ephesus and called for the older men [pre·sby·teʹrous] of the congregation,” he said to them, among other things: “Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers [e·pi·skoʹpous].” (Acts 20:17, 28)
Hence, elders (pre·sby·teʹrous) and overseers (e·pi·skoʹpous) had the same rank in Bible times. The term “elder” highlights the experience and spiritual maturity needed by those accepting this responsibility, whereas the term “overseer” describes the kind of work such ones do in supervising and caring for members of the congregation.

The reference to female 'shepherds' in the Bible pertained to literal sheep, not to positions in the congregation.

It is true that there were prophetesses in Israel but these were not teachers in the congregations. No one with teaching roles in either Judaism or Christianity were females. The gender roles were clearly identified and women had their own special place in God's arrangement. The roles were never competitive.
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I agree with almost all of this.

However, I believe men and women are equal, with different roles to play in the Church, and in the home.

How do we measure equality ? In my view, it is the value God gives to all people of both sexes. Three is no difference.

Teaching is one of a Pastors most important roles, as quoted above, women are not to be teachers, they have other responsibilities.

If both sexes, by the Spirit, accept and perform their responsibilities, the home, and the church functions properly, and are blessed.

Yes, the roles were gender specific and non competitive, so no women were competing with men for roles within the congregation.

When you consider that elders had some authority in the congregation especially with regard to judging wrong conduct and enforcing expulsion for non repentance, if women were in those positions they would be exercising authority over men....something Paul said that women cannot do in God's arrangement. There is a reason why God and his son were presented as males.

Also, there was never just one pastor to care for a congregation, but a body of elders to care for the flock. That meant that no one man could make arbitrary decisions but did so in collaboration with the body.

( Dejee, I am working on your list of verses we discussed)

Looking forward to discussing those things. :)
 

101G

Well-Known Member
What I think is getting lost in this discussion is the roles played by the various positions in the original Christian arrangement. There seems to be a disparity between what those roles entailed back then and what they came to mean in an apostate church system in later centuries....when they became positions of rank and authority.
Agreed, now you hit the nail on the head there.
Peter wrote his words at 1 Peter 5:1 to the “older men.” The Greek word Peter used for “older men” was pre·sby·teʹrous, from which the word “priest” is derived. In Christendom “bishops” are now considered superior to “priests.” But when the apostle Paul “sent to Ephesus and called for the older men [pre·sby·teʹrous] of the congregation,” he said to them, among other things: “Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers [e·pi·skoʹpous].” (Acts 20:17, 28)
again agreed, for even the apostle Peter was and "ELDER". 1 Peter 5:1 "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:"
It is true that there were prophetesses in Israel but these were not teachers in the congregations. No one with teaching roles in either Judaism or Christianity were females. The gender roles were clearly identified and women had their own special place in God's arrangement. The roles were never competitive.
she taught Israel, Judges 5:7 "The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel."
Gills commentary on the verse: until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel; until it pleased God to raise her up, and endow her in a very wonderful and extraordinary manner with gifts qualifying her to be a nursing mother to Israel, to teach and instruct them in the mind and will of God, to administer judgement and justice to them, to protect and defend them, and in all which she discovered a maternal affection for them; and as a good judge and ruler of a people may be called the father of them, so she, being a woman, is with propriety called a mother in Israel, having an affectionate concern for them as her children: now, till she arose, there was no perfect salvation and deliverance wrought for them, since the death of Ehud, even throughout the days of Shamgar and Jael; which is observed to excite praise and thankfulness on the present occasion, which hereby became the more illustrious.

so Deeje don't sell yourself short, women been training men since their youth.

PICJAG.
 
Last edited:
Top