'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
...Why noone on Earth have noticed the rise of deads (zombies) on crocifixtion day ?

I am pretty sure you are attempting (poorly) to refer to the event recorded in Matthew 27:50-53, in which some specific dead were raised, when Jesus arose ('first [day] of the week") and not on the day of the "crucifixion" (aka, the 6th day, the day of preparation to the Sabbath).

Even Isaiah foretold this, and your own "q" outwardly claims (though not inwardly) that Isaiah was a prophet:

Isaiah foretold, that the body of Jesus would be resurrected, and along with Him, others at Jerusalem:

Isaiah 26:19 - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

See also Psalms 40:6; Hebrews 10:5; Galatians 4:4;

Psalms 40:6 - Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Hebrews 10:5 - Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Galatians 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Psalms 68, a Psalms of David, sang about the Son of David, Jesus Christ, and His victory over sin and the grave:

Psalms 68:8 - The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
Psalms 68:17 - The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
Psalms 68:18 - Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Psalms 68:20 - He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
Psalms 68:21 - But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

Psalms 68:21 - references Genesis 3:15, and notice the connection to harvest, firstfruits, wavesheaf and the "seed" that began it all -

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Paul cites Psalms 68:18, in direction connection to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the freeing of the captives from the grave, and thus the specific persons around Jerusalem that had been sleeping the dust of the earth, in the graves are resurrected with Jesus, as Isaiah 26:19 shows:

Ephesians 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:9 - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:10 - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Paul cites Leviticus, etc., in reference to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the firstfruits of the harvest of souls:

1 Corinthians 15:20 - But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:21 - For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:23 - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ Jesus was fulfilling his duty, in the day of His resurrection, which was the 16th day of Abib, the 'first day of the week'; which began the numbering of days unto Pentecost; as it was written, to take of the "firstfruits", and to wave them, as the "wavesheaf", before the Father, and so took those He liberated from death to Heaven, and presented them before the Father in Heaven:

Leviticus 23:15 - And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Leviticus 23:16 - Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:17 - Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:18 - And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:19 - Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
Leviticus 23:20 - And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
Leviticus 23:21 - And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
Leviticus 23:22 - And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Matthew records the historical record:

Jesus dies:

Matthew 27:50 - Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

An earthquake happens, and the rocks are split:

Matthew 27:51 - And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

The graves of specific persons around Jerusalem are thus opened as angels descended to do their task [see connecting Matthew 28:2]:

Matthew 27:52 - And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

These specific persons around Jerusalem, unnamed and unnumbered do not come out of those opened graves until the 'first day of the week' when Jesus arises, and the angel Gabriel comes down clothed in the panopoly of Heaven, calling forth the Son by command of the Father, and the other earthquake happens:

Matthew 27:53 - And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice, the second earthquake in the descent of the covering Cherub and lesser arch-angel Gabriel:

Matthew 28:1 - In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Matthew 28:2 - And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Matthew 28:3 - His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Matthew 28:4 - And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

The reason why general history, outside of scripture, may not overtly record such an event, other than the historical account given by Matthew, and foretold by Moses in Leviticus, etc, by Isaiah, by David in the Psalms, and confirmed by Paul, etc, in scripture [KJB], may be because of the limited location, namely Jerusalem, and that the local persons in that area who were resurrected would only be recognized by loved ones [not necessarily by Romans, Samaritans, Greeks, or even strangers per se], and were not meant in general for non-believers outside of this area, but were as a proof to those in Jerusalem. Secondarily, just as other resurrections had to be covered up by the religious leaders, such as they wanted to even kill the evidence of the resurrection, namely Lazarus [John 12:10], and to spread false reports and to bury the truth [Matthew 28:11-15], just some speculative thoughts. There may yet still be records outside of scripture, we are not aware of as of yet. It is always interesting that in God's providence, such things, appear in the archaeological record when needed the most, and at the perfect time.

See also Psalms 24 (ascension Psalm), along with Psalms 98:1-3 and combine with Colossians 2:15.

How did Jesus leave? How is Jesus going to return?

Even Acts 1 says that a 'cloud' received Him. In that 'cloud' were the angels that came and those resurrected that had already been taken up by the angels to leave with Jesus, as "clouds" in such language, is symbolic of persons, whether of heaven or earth.

John the Baptist, is a possible person so resurrected, though this is only speculation.

However, even the "hadith" places John the Baptist in the 2nd level of Muslim Heaven.

PS. a resurrection, is not a 'zombie", as even the "q" speaks of resurrection, so are you mocking your own theology also?

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
...40 writers in 1st century ...

Could you specifically list those "40" (not 39, 38 or less, 40 please) writers of the 1st century, and what their primary material would be and study? For instance, I would not expect a Persian writer in the 1st century to focus on history of Jerusalem, Jews, Judiasm, etc.

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
...Why Mark, Luke, and Mathew are called synoptics (b)ut John stands alone ? ...

John was a lot younger than most of the other disciples, and lived a long time, while many of the others were martyred. John's record of the gospel of Jesus Christ, was written, as most agree, after his exile on Patmos was over, circa AD 90ish, while the others (Matthew, Mark, Luke) were all written much earlier. John's record doesn't "stand alone" any more than any other book of scripture, though his is from his own personal eyewitness (told from a third-person perspective). In John's case, he didn't need to cover the same ground as so many others already had so many years earlier, but focused on those places which needed more light so many years later, when heresies were growing, from within, and without. Each writer (of the 4) wrote from their perspective and memory, as worked upon by the Holy Ghost/Spirit. They are in perfect harmony. For instance:

[the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God]

Jesus at Lazarus' house in Bethany [Mt. Olivet] – [John 12:1]

[the first [day] of the week]

Jesus Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, "the next day" from leaving Lazarus' house, Hosanna! - [John 12:12,13; Matthew 21:10; Mark 11:11], goes to the Temple, and after looking around, leaves, since it was close to evening back out unto Mt. Olivet.

[the second [day] of the week]

Jesus comes back, curses the fig tree, goes to the Temple, and cleanses the Temple for the Second [last] time of the Money Changers - [Matthew 21:12,13,17; Mark 11:12,15,16,17,19], and Jesus goes back out.

[the third [day] of the week]

Jesus comes back, the Fig tree is withered up from the roots, goes to the Temple, and has the final teachings to the Pharisees, etc - [Matthew 21:18,23; Mark 11:20,27].

This was the "two days" before the "Passover" - [Matthew 26:1-2; Mark 14:1; Luke 21:37-38, 22:1].

Jesus tells the Jewish nation, that their house is forever left desolate, no more fruit again - [Matthew 23:37-39; Luke 13:32-35].

Jesus said, that He still had to do "cures" and "cast out devils" "to day, tomorrow and the third day" and be done - [Luke 13:32,33]

Jesus had been "daily" in the Temple - [Matthew 26:55; Mark 14:49; Luke 19:47, 22:53; John 18:20]

The "today" [Luke 13:32,33]

[the fourth [day] of the week]

The "tomorrow" [Luke 13:32,33]

[the fifth [day] of the week]

The "Third Day" [Luke 13:32,33], being done.

[the sixth [day] of the week; preparation]

Gather twice as much, Christ Jesus the anti-typical Manna, Exodus 16:25,26

The "spices" "had been" [Mark 16;1] purchased sometime after the Crucifixion and before burial so that they could "prepare" [Luke 23:56] them to bring on the "first [day] of the week" [Luke 24:1], even as we see Joseph of Arimathaea doing for the linen - [Mark 14:46]

1st Evening Part - [Matthew 26:31,34; Mark 14:27,30]
1st Morning [Light] Part - [Matthew 27:21; Mark 15:1]

Abib/Nisan 14th; Christ Jesus our Passover is Sacrificed for us - [1 Corinthians 5:7],

[the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God]

Jesus remained in the Tomb all Sabbath - anti-type Manna - Exodus 16:29,30

The Disciples were keeping the Sabbath according to the Commandment - [Exodus 20:8-11; Luke 23:54,56]

2nd Evening and 2nd Morning Parts - [Matthew 27:58-66, 28:1; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:52-53,54; John 19:38-42]

Abib/Nisan 15th - Seasonal Feast Sabbath [First Day of Unleavened Bread, without corruption] - [Leviticus 23:5-8]

[the first [day] of the week]

Christ Jesus, preserved and Risen - Anti-type Manna - Exodus 16:32-34

3rd Evening and 3rd Morning Parts, Christ Risen and shown alive - [Matthew 28:1-10; Mark 16:2-20; Luke 24:1-29; John 20:1-23]

Abib/Nisan 16th; Christ the Firstfruits/Wavesheaf Offering, Anti-Type Resurrection - [1 Corinthians 15:20,23].

Jesus was walking with the disciples on the Road to Emmaus on the "first [day] of the week", as the day was closing out, being "the third day since these things" were done [Luke 24:21],

[the second [day] of the week]

Jesus was still walking with the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus as the first [day] of the week was closing, and it becomes Evening - [Luke 24:29,35, etc]

Let us see what we will of the Scriptures first in all four Gospel accounts together [beginning with the “Truly this was the Son of God” statement/event and continuing from there], before addressing this:

“Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” Matthew 27:54

“And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.” Mark 15:39

“Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.” Luke 23:47

“And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.” Luke 23:48

“And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:” Matthew 27:55

“There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;” Mark 15:40

“And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.” Luke 23:49

“Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.” Matthew 27:56

“(Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him: ) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.” Mark 15:41

“When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:” Matthew 27:57

“And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,” Mark 15:42

“And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:” Luke 23:50

“(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them; ) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.” Luke 23:51

“He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.” Matthew 27:58

“Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.” Mark 15:43

“And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.” Mark 15:44

“And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.” Mark 15:45

“This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.” Luke 23:52

“And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.” John 19:38

“And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,” Matthew 27:59

“And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.” Mark 15:46

“And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.” Luke 23:53

“And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound [weight].” John 19:39

“Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.” John 19:40

“And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.” Luke 23:54

“Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.” John 19:41

“There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.” John 19:42

“And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.” Matthew 27:60

“And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.” Matthew 27:61

“And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.” Mark 15:47

“And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.” Luke 23:55

“And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.” Luke 23:56

“In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” Matthew 28:1

“And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.” Matthew 28:2

“And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.” Mark 16:1

“And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.” Mark 16:2

“And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?” Mark 16:3

“And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.” Mark 16:4

“Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.” Luke 24:1

“And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.” Luke 24:2

“The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.” John 20:1

Total Harmony. Each having a piece of the great whole, while some pieces overlap, and some pieces unique to their perspective.

Limo · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
All your questions, aren't really questions.

They (Christians) didn't "add", nor "take away", as it is forbidden. They faithfully recorded by inspiration of God.

First of all, Psalms 12:6-7, etc already showed that JEHOVAH Elohiym preserves JEHOVAH Elohiym's words.

Manuscripts (MSS, abbreviated) evidence for the reading (or Gospel ending) of Mark 16:9-20 KJB-

3 of the so-called Great Uncials : A (Alexandrinus), C (Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus), D (Codex Bezae Cantabrigensis), and many other Uncials: E, F, G, (H), K, (L), M, S, U, V, (W), X, Y.

It is in - Gamma, Delta, Theta, Pi, Sigma, (Psi), Omega, (099), (0112).

In thee vast # (1,000's of MSS) of "Cursives", being in "MAJORITY", fam 1,13.

Old Latin - aur, c, d-suppl, ff2, g1,2, l, n, o, p, r2, & Vulgate (1,000's of MSS)

SYRIAC - peshi.tta, curetonian, harclean, palestinian.

COPTIC - sahidic, bohairic, fayyumic.

Gothic, Armenian, Ethiopic.

It is extant (available) in 047, 055, 0211, 0233?, 0257.

Early bishops (so-called ECF), who claimed direct succession of the Apostles never left it out-

TATIAN, Diatessaron, (I 10:125,126,128,129), in entirety.

IRENAEUS, Against Heresies (I 1:426), vs. 16:18

TERTULLIAN, Resurrection of Flesh (I 3:584), vs. 16:19; Against Praxeas (I 3:627), vs. 16:19

CYPRIAN, 7th Council (I 5:569), refers to vs. 16:17,18; Gospel of Nicodemus (I 8:422,432,436,445), vs. 16:15-19

APHRAHAT, Demonstrations (III 13:351), vs. 16:16-19

APOSTOLIC CONST. (I 7:457,479), vs 16:16-19

AMBROSE, The Holy Spirit (III 10:133,134), vs. 16:15-18; Const. of Faith (III 10:216), vs. 16:15; Repentance (III 10:335), vs. 16:17,18.

Nothing in indexes of the ANPF of pre-400 AD father quoting up to vs. 8 and stopping.

Main line Bibles always had it: AV (KJB), HF & CR*; Tyndale, Great, Geneva, Bishops, Stephanus, Th. Beza, Elzivir bro., E, 238, 239, 440, 475-2nd. cor., 477, 486, 488, 489, 1071, & etc.

Basically in 10,000's of MSS, only 'missing' in: Aleph (Sinaiticus) [which omits quite a bit], B (Vaticanus), the 2 most 'emended' (corrupted) Codices and in 'pc' (UBS cites 1 lone cursive*), (k), sin, sa-ms, Arm-mss.

As for Vaticanus (codex B), there is the exact 'space' for it in the MSS: - Should the Longer Ending of Mark (Mark 16:9-20) be in the Bible? - King James Version Today

Between Luke and John, there is no such 'space':

For more detail, please see brother Will Kinney's page - https://brandplucked.webs.com/mark16920.htm

What you're talking about here ?

Limo · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
Thanks for that admission that it is in those sources.

Show me a single historical source from 570-642 AD that mentions Muhammad by name, or Muslims by name or Meccah by name. Just one source.

This is for the debate purposes, suppose that these 2-3 lines are genuine.
I said before there is no single book about Arabs in pensuia.
Arabs were isolated in desert and no body cares to record their history.

But prophet Mohamed peace be upon him has major foot print. He was a leader. He opens the whole Arabic pensuia. Within 20 years after his death, moslems smashed the 2 super powers at that time.
History of ancestors till Ibrahim, grandfather, father, mother, childhood, youth, all his life are recorded with chain of narratoons of well known people.

This is different from your Jesus, who left no footprint. Even the well known Christianity is not from Jesus but Paul.
Jesus said to kananaite woman, I was sent to lost israiltes cheap but Paul has invented new Christianity to non Jews

firedragon · Nov 14, 2019

dybmh said:
I think @Firemorphic answered the question.

All good. Cheers.

Limo · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
Could you specifically list those "40" (not 39, 38 or less, 40 please) writers of the 1st century, and what their primary material would be and study? For instance, I would not expect a Persian writer in the 1st century to focus on history of Jerusalem, Jews, Judiasm, etc.

I didn't develop the list. Thanks to Atheists research
The following is copied from. American atheist site
"
They Should Have Noticed
John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY, no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have lived:

Josephus Juvenal Lucanus
Philo-Judæus Martial Epictetus
Seneca Persius Hermogones Silius Italicus
Pliny Elder Plutarch Statius
Arrian Pliny Younger Ptolemy
Petronius Tacitus Appian
Dion Pruseus Justus of Tiberius Phlegon
Paterculus Apollonius Phædrus
Suetonius Quintilian Valerius Maximus
Pausanias Dio Chrysostom Lysias
Florus Lucius Columella Pomponius Mela
Lucian Valerius Flaccus Appion of Alexandria
Quintius Curtius Damis Theon of Smyrna
Aulus Gellius Favorinus"

Limo · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
I am pretty sure you are attempting (poorly) to refer to the event recorded in Matthew 27:50-53, in which some specific dead were raised, when Jesus arose ('first [day] of the week") and not on the day of the "crucifixion" (aka, the 6th day, the day of preparation to the Sabbath).

Even Isaiah foretold this, and your own "q" outwardly claims (though not inwardly) that Isaiah was a prophet:

Isaiah foretold, that the body of Jesus would be resurrected, and along with Him, others at Jerusalem:

Isaiah 26:19 - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

See also Psalms 40:6; Hebrews 10:5; Galatians 4:4;

Psalms 40:6 - Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Hebrews 10:5 - Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Galatians 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Psalms 68, a Psalms of David, sang about the Son of David, Jesus Christ, and His victory over sin and the grave:

Psalms 68:8 - The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
Psalms 68:17 - The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
Psalms 68:18 - Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Psalms 68:20 - He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
Psalms 68:21 - But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

Psalms 68:21 - references Genesis 3:15, and notice the connection to harvest, firstfruits, wavesheaf and the "seed" that began it all -

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Paul cites Psalms 68:18, in direction connection to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the freeing of the captives from the grave, and thus the specific persons around Jerusalem that had been sleeping the dust of the earth, in the graves are resurrected with Jesus, as Isaiah 26:19 shows:

Ephesians 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:9 - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:10 - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Paul cites Leviticus, etc., in reference to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the firstfruits of the harvest of souls:

1 Corinthians 15:20 - But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:21 - For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:23 - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ Jesus was fulfilling his duty, in the day of His resurrection, which was the 16th day of Abib, the 'first day of the week'; which began the numbering of days unto Pentecost; as it was written, to take of the "firstfruits", and to wave them, as the "wavesheaf", before the Father, and so took those He liberated from death to Heaven, and presented them before the Father in Heaven:

Leviticus 23:15 - And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Leviticus 23:16 - Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:17 - Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:18 - And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
Leviticus 23:19 - Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
Leviticus 23:20 - And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
Leviticus 23:21 - And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
Leviticus 23:22 - And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Matthew records the historical record:

Jesus dies:

Matthew 27:50 - Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

An earthquake happens, and the rocks are split:

Matthew 27:51 - And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

The graves of specific persons around Jerusalem are thus opened as angels descended to do their task [see connecting Matthew 28:2]:

Matthew 27:52 - And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

These specific persons around Jerusalem, unnamed and unnumbered do not come out of those opened graves until the 'first day of the week' when Jesus arises, and the angel Gabriel comes down clothed in the panopoly of Heaven, calling forth the Son by command of the Father, and the other earthquake happens:

Matthew 27:53 - And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice, the second earthquake in the descent of the covering Cherub and lesser arch-angel Gabriel:

Matthew 28:1 - In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Matthew 28:2 - And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Matthew 28:3 - His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Matthew 28:4 - And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

The reason why general history, outside of scripture, may not overtly record such an event, other than the historical account given by Matthew, and foretold by Moses in Leviticus, etc, by Isaiah, by David in the Psalms, and confirmed by Paul, etc, in scripture [KJB], may be because of the limited location, namely Jerusalem, and that the local persons in that area who were resurrected would only be recognized by loved ones [not necessarily by Romans, Samaritans, Greeks, or even strangers per se], and were not meant in general for non-believers outside of this area, but were as a proof to those in Jerusalem. Secondarily, just as other resurrections had to be covered up by the religious leaders, such as they wanted to even kill the evidence of the resurrection, namely Lazarus [John 12:10], and to spread false reports and to bury the truth [Matthew 28:11-15], just some speculative thoughts. There may yet still be records outside of scripture, we are not aware of as of yet. It is always interesting that in God's providence, such things, appear in the archaeological record when needed the most, and at the perfect time.

See also Psalms 24 (ascension Psalm), along with Psalms 98:1-3 and combine with Colossians 2:15.

How did Jesus leave? How is Jesus going to return?

Even Acts 1 says that a 'cloud' received Him. In that 'cloud' were the angels that came and those resurrected that had already been taken up by the angels to leave with Jesus, as "clouds" in such language, is symbolic of persons, whether of heaven or earth.

John the Baptist, is a possible person so resurrected, though this is only speculation.

However, even the "hadith" places John the Baptist in the 2nd level of Muslim Heaven.

PS. a resurrection, is not a 'zombie", as even the "q" speaks of resurrection, so are you mocking your own theology also?

Why should I beleive old testimony?
Suppose it's true, why do you think it's talking about your Jesus?

New testimony have no creditability here at all.

Again you're using doctor Watson to proof Holmes exists.

firedragon · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
Even your own "q" states that God is able to preserve His word. The "q" even tells Jews and Christians to judge by what they had in their hand (text) and to test by it.

You have drawn a new picture irrelevant to the OP. You are stating the same evangelical statements hacked on a daily basis.

Do you understand what Bi kalimathin minhaa means? In order to stand by your claim by you quoting the Quran to validate the New Testament you must understand the Quran first. Then link both documents in order to prove your case.

First lets see if you could understand the Quran. Since your understanding is not based one studies like you claim but purely based on your sources which are evangelical statements made by evangelists, you have to get a little bit deeper into the subject.

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
Why should I believe old testimony? ...

So, it is true, you do not actually believe what Isaiah said under inspiration, and the "q" or "muslim" claim to 'believe' what went before is merely empty. You believe in 'imaginary' 'Muslim' Isaiah, that never existed, and never had anything written on scroll in documentable history. For when I point to any texts of Isaiah, or Moses, etc, and show them to you, and show how they relate to Jesus of the NT, what I get in return is that it is 'old' or 'corrupted', without any such evidence of 'corruption', and without any logical reason to reject what is 'old', except to say the reason to reject it, is because it is 'old', which would also negate the 'q' argument also, as it too is 'old'. Another self-refuting argument for Islam, used by yourself.

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
...New testimony have no creditability here at all. ...

That negates the 'new' testimony of Muhammad and "q" also using the same erroneous logic, as it came 600+ years after the NT, and several more hundred to thousand after the OT. Another self-refuting argument, that you are using.

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
...Again you're using doctor Watson to proof Holmes exists.

Let's try this again, looking at it from your perspective. What is your evidence, historically, that 'Isa ever existed?

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
...Again you're using doctor Watson to proof Holmes exists.

Paul was actually citing Isaiah, David (Psalms) and Leviticus (Moses) as shown. You are rejecting what Isaiah, David (Psalms) and Leviticus (Moses) stated, simply because Paul cited them in fulfillment of prophecy given by JEHOVAH Elohiym? The Jews were the keepers of the "oracles of God" and had the OT in their hand, even as Jesus himself quoted from them. We especially know that what they had in text, is what we have today in hand. Especially Isaiah.

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
I didn't develop the list. Thanks to Atheists research
The following is copied from. American atheist site
"
They Should Have Noticed
John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY, no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have lived:

Josephus Juvenal Lucanus
Philo-Judæus Martial Epictetus
Seneca Persius Hermogones Silius Italicus
Pliny Elder Plutarch Statius
Arrian Pliny Younger Ptolemy
Petronius Tacitus Appian
Dion Pruseus Justus of Tiberius Phlegon
Paterculus Apollonius Phædrus
Suetonius Quintilian Valerius Maximus
Pausanias Dio Chrysostom Lysias
Florus Lucius Columella Pomponius Mela
Lucian Valerius Flaccus Appion of Alexandria
Quintius Curtius Damis Theon of Smyrna
Aulus Gellius Favorinus"

Good. Thank you for the list. Now, what reasoning do you use that each of these historians should have written about Jesus, a Jew, that most Jews couldn't identify simply by sight, or of the 'sect' of Christianity, or of the crucifixion of a mostly unknown teacher (outside of Judaea), which began primarily from Jews (Peter, James, John, Andrew, Matthew, etc). For instance, why would "Appian of Alexandria" (Egypt) whose 'surviving' work (meaning there were likely much more that is non-extant) is on Civil Wars of Rome and other intricacies of the Roman government? Jesus wasn't Roman, and Appian wasn't in Jerusalem, but down in Alexandria Egypt after the events, between 95-165 AD?

The same goes for most of the other authors? What is the reasoning that you expect them to write about such things?

Crosstian · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
... Dio ...

I have Cassius Dio's history, and he records the destruction of Jerusalem, and thus is a secondary testimony to Jesus, not a direct testimony, since the reason for the destruction was the rejection of Jesus, to which even "q" admits that the Muslim 'Isa was rejected by his own people.

Destruction of Jerusalem; AD 70. [even up to the time of Cassius Dio]

"... [Page 281; Internally 271] Thus was Jerusalem destroyed on the very day of Saturn, the day which even now the Jews reverence most. From that time forth it was ordered that the Jews who continued to observe their ancestral customs should pay and annual tribute of two denarii to Jupiter Capitolinus. ..." [Page 281; Internally Page 271] - https://archive.org/stream/L176Cassi.../n280/mode/1up

The reason for the sack of Jerusalem, was ultimately because of the rejection of Jesus, as Jesus said:

Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luk_11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Mat_24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mar_13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luk_19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Luk_21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat_23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luk_13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

"Cassius Dio wrote a history of the Civil Wars of 193-7 and a history of Rome from its foundation to the death of Severus Alexander (in 80 books). Dio's history was written in Greek. Only a few of the books of this history of Rome have survived. Much of what we know of the writing of Cassius Dio comes from Byzantine scholars. ...

... About one third of Dio's History has come down to us intact.

The extant portions are:

(a) Books XXXIV-LX (in large part), continued in eleven Mss.;
(b) Book LXXVIII with part of LXXIX (or LXXIX with part of LXXX
according to Boissevain's division), preserved in a single Ms.;
(c) the Paris fragments describing events of the years 207-200 B.C.,
recovered from the binding of a Strabo Ms. ..." - Does Cassius Dio mention Christians ?

So, why count out Cassius Dio, based solely on the few extant works, and those mostly on Civil Wars of Rome? This is not evidence that Cassius Dio ever wrote directly about Jesus, but to merely speak from a position that is absent most of the evidence is very telling.

Limo said:
Chrysostom ...

Are you referring to John Chrysostom, of 349-407 AD? A 'catholic'? Are you saying he didn't write about Jesus, or Christians, at least from a 'catholic' perspective, nor of the crucifixion, resurrection of Jesus? Help me out here. Why do you have this name on the list? Why would the testimony of a person some 400 years later be more relevant that Tacitus, Seutonius or Pliny the Younger, and others?

Limo · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
So, it is true, you do not actually believe what Isaiah said under inspiration, and the "q" or "muslim" claim to 'believe' what went before is merely empty. You believe in 'imaginary' 'Muslim' Isaiah, that never existed, and never had anything written on scroll in documentable history. For when I point to any texts of Isaiah, or Moses, etc, and show them to you, and show how they relate to Jesus of the NT, what I get in return is that it is 'old' or 'corrupted', without any such evidence of 'corruption', and without any logical reason to reject what is 'old', except to say the reason to reject it, is because it is 'old', which would also negate the 'q' argument also, as it too is 'old'. Another self-refuting argument for Islam, used by yourself.

This is good. You're using your own words.
I'm not rejecting because it's old. I don't know if these statements are genuine or changed . The lying pen of scribes has changed the law as Prophets said themselves in old testimony.
Jeremiah 8:8
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

Limo · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
That negates the 'new' testimony of Muhammad and "q" also using the same erroneous logic, as it came 600+ years after the NT, and several more hundred to thousand after the OT. Another self-refuting argument, that you are using.

It's irrelevant.
What is the correlation?
Gospels writers are anonymous. There is no chain of narrations. The original copy doesn't exist. The copy of original copy doesn't exist. So forth
Quran hasn't changed. Any copy on Earth now is the same as oldest copy in London Museum or Istanbul copy.

Firemorphic · Nov 14, 2019

Limo said:
It's irrelevant.
What is the correlation?
Gospels writers are anonymous. There is no chain of narrations. The original copy doesn't exist. The copy of original copy doesn't exist. So forth
Quran hasn't changed. Any copy on Earth now is the same as oldest copy in London Museum or Istanbul copy.

Even Mark itself is written 30 years after Jesus' "death" at the earliest, none of the NT writers were eyewitnesses to Jesus and that itself is the least of Christianity's problems (that itself is a massive problem when there is no Divine Revelation associated with Matthew mark luke and john, which are all merely late biographical writings). Biographies aren't scripture.

Anyway, I don't think Crosstian realizes how he is potentially giving arguments to debunk the entire Abrahamic tradition, given that Christianity needs the revelation of Islam to support there even being a real Jesus.
Once Crosstian applies his methods to himself he will become an Atheists without a doubt.

Limo · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
Let's try this again, looking at it from your perspective. What is your evidence, historically, that 'Isa ever existed?

I've no historical evedance that Isa, Mosa, Ibrahim, Adam, Noah, Zakaria,,, exist but beleive only. But all these characters are normal humans. So, there is no issue for non Moslems to beleive or not beleive. At the end non Moslem can say, it might or might not beleive.
But to tell God or son of God and add extremely incidents from many pagans relegions, adding circumstances like crucifixion and resurrection,,, then Jews, Moslems, non Christians will stop you and ask for historical evidances outside belief domain.

Limo · Nov 14, 2019

Crosstian said:
I have Cassius Dio's history, and he records the destruction of Jerusalem, and thus is a secondary testimony to Jesus, not a direct testimony, since the reason for the destruction was the rejection of Jesus, to which even "q" admits that the Muslim 'Isa was rejected by his own people.

Destruction of Jerusalem; AD 70. [even up to the time of Cassius Dio]

"... [Page 281; Internally 271] Thus was Jerusalem destroyed on the very day of Saturn, the day which even now the Jews reverence most. From that time forth it was ordered that the Jews who continued to observe their ancestral customs should pay and annual tribute of two denarii to Jupiter Capitolinus. ..." [Page 281; Internally Page 271] - https://archive.org/stream/L176Cassi.../n280/mode/1up

The reason for the sack of Jerusalem, was ultimately because of the rejection of Jesus, as Jesus said:

Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luk_11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Mat_24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mar_13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luk_19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Luk_21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat_23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luk_13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

"Cassius Dio wrote a history of the Civil Wars of 193-7 and a history of Rome from its foundation to the death of Severus Alexander (in 80 books). Dio's history was written in Greek. Only a few of the books of this history of Rome have survived. Much of what we know of the writing of Cassius Dio comes from Byzantine scholars. ...

... About one third of Dio's History has come down to us intact.

The extant portions are:

(a) Books XXXIV-LX (in large part), continued in eleven Mss.;
(b) Book LXXVIII with part of LXXIX (or LXXIX with part of LXXX
according to Boissevain's division), preserved in a single Ms.;
(c) the Paris fragments describing events of the years 207-200 B.C.,
recovered from the binding of a Strabo Ms. ..." - Does Cassius Dio mention Christians ?

So, why count out Cassius Dio, based solely on the few extant works, and those mostly on Civil Wars of Rome? This is not evidence that Cassius Dio ever wrote directly about Jesus, but to merely speak from a position that is absent most of the evidence is very telling.

Are you referring to John Chrysostom, of 349-407 AD? A 'catholic'? Are you saying he didn't write about Jesus, or Christians, at least from a 'catholic' perspective, nor of the crucifixion, resurrection of Jesus? Help me out here. Why do you have this name on the list? Why would the testimony of a person some 400 years later be more relevant that Tacitus, Seutonius or Pliny the Younger, and others?

Back to massive copy-pastes

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