Jesus being michael

calm · Nov 12, 2019

Moz said:
So there are several Arch Angels... that's what the Bible teaches is it? Only One arch Angel is ever mentioned in scripture, the deduction that the other Princes must also be Arch Angels is just you conflating the two positions.

The Definition of the Greek Word "archaggelos"(Archangel) means "a Chief Angel" and/or "a ruler of angels". Thus the term "Archangel" and the term "a Chief Prince" have the same meaning.
The Old Testament and the New Testament use different words because they were written in different languages (Hebrew and Greek), nevertheless both words have the same meaning.

Moz said:
The fact that we are made in Gods Image shows that WE are at least somewhat LIKE God in a certain sense doesn't it.

That's not exactly true. The definition of the Hebrew word "demuth" means "similitude", thus the people are not created like God, but similar to God. And that is true, we humans are similar to God but not like God. No man and no angel is like God. The biblical passages that I have shown you prove this, what you interpret from it is your thing. And what is meant by the name "Michael" I have also explained to you.

Moz said:
Eph 5:5 So try to be like God, because you are his own dear children.

This translation is not correct. The definition of the Greek word "mimetes" means "follower".
The KJV Bible has the correct translation of this verse:
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Moz said:
Ephesians 4:22-24 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Yes, people were created by God in righteousness and holiness. And these two properties are of course God's properties but, as I already showed you, the Bible says that we people were created similar to God and not like God.

Moz · Nov 12, 2019

calm said:
The Definition of the Greek Word "archaggelos"(Archangel) means "a Chief Angel" and/or "a ruler of angels". Thus the term "Archangel" and the term "a Chief Prince" have the same meaning.
The Old Testament and the New Testament use different words because they were written in different languages (Hebrew and Greek), nevertheless both words have the same meaning.

That's not exactly true. The definition of the Hebrew word "demuth" means "similitude", thus the people are not created like God, but similar to God. And that is true, we humans are similar to God but not like God. No man and no angel is like God. The biblical passages that I have shown you prove this, what you interpret from it is your thing. And what is meant by the name "Michael" I have also explained to you.

This translation is not correct. The definition of the Greek word "mimetes" means "follower".
The KJV Bible has the correct translation of this verse:
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Yes, people were created by God in righteousness and holiness. And these two properties are of course God's properties but, as I already showed you, the Bible says that we people were created similar to God and not like God.

The Definition of the Greek Word "archaggelos"(Archangel) means "a Chief Angel" and/or "a ruler of angels". Thus the term "Archangel" and the term "a Chief Prince" have the same meaning.
The Old Testament and the New Testament use different words because they were written in different languages (Hebrew and Greek), nevertheless both words have the same meaning.

So you think Angel and Prince are synonyms? That is wishful thinking. It is also interesting that you include the definite article... A. " A chief Angel" instead of "chief Angel", "A ruler of Angels" instead of "Ruler of Angels" i don't know if you realized what you were doing or not but the answer is to imprecise and does not adequately address the issue. Satan is referred to as a prince of Persia but we KNOW that satan is the leader of the demons, so i think the logic you are using does not fit the situation.

Later in the book of Daniel, when Michael is sent forth to subdue Gods enemies he is called The GREAT PRINCE.... Dan 12:1 "At that time Michael, the Great Prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. The Great Prince... doesn't that title lift him above the other Princes.
If you note the timing of Revelation 12 you will see that it mirrors revelations, if Michael were Jesus then at this time he would have already been to earth and accomplished His mission and is therefore NOW in line for the throne.... hence Michael Now in chapter 12 is called the GREAT PRINCE of Gods people. The exact title that you would expect the future King to hold.

Also what you need to realize is that Primogeniture was NOT the standard.... the "firstborn" , although given honor is not the automatic "crown Prince", in the ancient world the Princes of a household were ALL in line for the throne if they proved themselves to the Sovereign. So until the Messianic mission was completed Michael was One of the Princes but still the LEADER of the Angels. There is nothing here that does not reflect the standard arrangement of ruler ship in the ancient world.
.....................................................
That's not exactly true. The definition of the Hebrew word "demuth" means "similitude", thus the people are not created like God, but similar to God. And that is true, we humans are similar to God but not like God. No man and no angel is like God. The biblical passages that I have shown you prove this, what you interpret from it is your thing. And what is meant by the name "Michael" I have also explained to you.

Not exactly true? ....... how true is it though............ if was to say Michael is similar to God then are we shiny?

If you were to look at the SYNONYMS of LIKE you would find that SIMILAR is one of them, but i am happy to go with YOUR interpretation, let's try something. The Arch Angel Michael is SIMILAR to GOD., it makes no difference to me.

similar to God but not like God.............. That needs some explaining, what is the difference?

.........................................................
This translation is not correct. The definition of the Greek word "mimetes" means "follower".
The KJV Bible has the correct translation of this verse:
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Very pedantic point here. If you think that being a FOLLOWER of God does not mean that we are to be LIKE God, to the best of our ability, then i do not know what you think follow is.
To argue that being made in "Gods Image" does not mean we are like God but only similar to God is an argument without any base, they mean the SAME thing.
...........................................
Why is it, do you think, that it is Michael who casts Satan from Heaven.... surely that is Jesus' job?

calm · Nov 12, 2019

Moz said:
It is also interesting that you include the definite article... A. " A chief Angel" instead of "chief Angel", "A ruler of Angels" instead of "Ruler of Angels" i don't know if you realized what you were doing or not but the answer is to imprecise and does not adequately address the issue.

Look for yourself.. Strong's Greek: 743. ἀρχάγγελος (archaggelos) -- a chief angel, i.e. archangel

Moz said:
Satan is referred to as a prince of Persia but we KNOW that satan is the leader of the demons, so i think the logic you are using does not fit the situation.

Michael is not described only as a prince but as "one of the chief princes". On the other hand, the Prince of Persia is only described as a prince. So Michael does not have the same rank as Satan, as you said, but a special rank that only a few have.

Moz said:
Later in the book of Daniel, when Michael is sent forth to subdue Gods enemies he is called The GREAT PRINCE.... Dan 12:1 "At that time Michael, the Great Prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. The Great Prince... doesn't that title lift him above the other Princes.
If you note the timing of Revelation 12 you will see that it mirrors revelations, if Michael were Jesus then at this time he would have already been to earth and accomplished His mission and is therefore NOW in line for the throne.... hence Michael Now in chapter 12 is called the GREAT PRINCE of Gods people. The exact title that you would expect the future King to hold.

The "Great Prince" and the "Chief Prince" have the same rank / meaning.
The Hebrew word for "Chief" means "first", "great" or/and "leader".

Moz said:
Also what you need to realize is that Primogeniture was NOT the standard.... the "firstborn" , although given honor is not the automatic "crown Prince", in the ancient world the Princes of a household were ALL in line for the throne if they proved themselves to the Sovereign. So until the Messianic mission was completed Michael was One of the Princes but still the LEADER of the Angels. There is nothing here that does not reflect the standard arrangement of ruler ship in the ancient world.

The book Daniel says that there are several Chief Princes and as I said before, the definition of the Hebrew word "Chief" is "First", "Leader", and/or "Greatest".
So the bible says that there are several leaders and one of them is Michael, for it is written in Daniel 10:13 KJV
but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes,

Moz said:
The Arch Angel Michael is SIMILAR to GOD., it makes no difference to me.

And where in the Bible does it say that Michael is similar to God?

Moz said:
similar to God but not like God.............. That needs some explaining, what is the difference?

To be similar to God is to own parts of God's characteristics; and to be like God is to be like God.

Moz said:
Very pedantic point here. If you think that being a FOLLOWER of God does not mean that we are to be LIKE God, to the best of our ability, then i do not know what you think follow is.

To follow God means to live according to God's laws(John 14:21) and not to be like God.
And as I said, the bible clearly says that nobody is like god. (Jeremiah 10:6, Exodus 8:10, 2 Samuel 7:22)

Moz said:
To argue that being made in "Gods Image" does not mean we are like God but only similar to God is an argument without any base, they mean the SAME thing.

As I said before, the definition of the Hebrew word "demuth" which is used in Genesis 1:26 is "similarity" and not "equality".

THE Art Vandelay · Nov 12, 2019

Frank Goad said:
Were in the bible does it say right out jesus is michael?

Why would it need to say it outright? A discerning reader can see, with little effort actually, that the word "archangel" (meaning 'chief angel') is only used in relation to one individual, Jesus. And it's not uncommon for individuals in the Bible to be known by other names (i.e. Peter as Cephas, Saul becoming Paul, etc).

Moz · Nov 12, 2019

calm said:
Look for yourself.. Strong's Greek: 743. ἀρχάγγελος (archaggelos) -- a chief angel, i.e. archangel

Michael is not described only as a prince but as "one of the chief princes". On the other hand, the Prince of Persia is only described as a prince. So Michael does not have the same rank as Satan, as you said, but a special rank that only a few have.

The "Great Prince" and the "Chief Prince" have the same rank / meaning.
The Hebrew word for "Chief" means "first", "great" or/and "leader".

The book Daniel says that there are several Chief Princes and as I said before, the definition of the Hebrew word "Chief" is "First", "Leader", and/or "Greatest".
So the bible says that there are several leaders and one of them is Michael, for it is written in Daniel 10:13 KJV
but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes,

And where in the Bible does it say that Michael is similar to God?

To be similar to God is to own parts of God's characteristics; and to be like God is to be like God.

To follow God means to live according to God's laws(John 14:21) and not to be like God.
And as I said, the bible clearly says that nobody is like god. (Jeremiah 10:6, Exodus 8:10, 2 Samuel 7:22)

As I said before, the definition of the Hebrew word "demuth" which is used in Genesis 1:26 is "similarity" and not "equality".

Michael is not described only as a prince but as "one of the chief princes".

Hmmmm... Eisenhower could be described as one of the "chief US Generals": of ww2 and that would in NO WAY negate that he was also supreme commander of Allied forces. That there are other Princes and Michael is one of them doesn't negate that he is referred to in Revelation as ARCH ANGEL or chief messenger as well.
............................................
The "Great Prince" and the "Chief Prince" have the same rank / meaning.
The Hebrew word for "Chief" means "first", "great" or/and "leader".

So ALL the Chief Princes are also all Great Princes...... although they are NOT referred to that way and there are many Arch Angels even though none are referred to that way. Okey Dokey i guess.
................................................

The following accounts, one in Daniel the other from Revelation are referring to the SAME events yet Michael leads one and Jesus leads the other ..... WHY?

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
.........................................

The "Word of God" is very much like the title "Chief Messenger" isn't it?
What is the actual difference? Help me out.

...............................................
And where in the Bible does it say that Michael is similar to God?

So you do not consider the Angels to be "like" God? Perfect spirit creatures who are fully in line with Jehovah's will are not LIKE him in any way. OK.

What is it about Michael that you find to be UNLIKE God?

Surely Michael having been given the right to lead other Angels as well as God's earthly people would only be given that responsibility by God if he was a upstanding representation of what God wants.
....................................................
As I said before, the definition of the Hebrew word "demuth" which is used in Genesis 1:26 is "similarity" and not "equality".

Again you have a strange view of what the word LIKE means. It DOES NOT mean equality, where did that come from. YES Michael is not EQUAL to God, which is what the scriptures you quoted refer to, but that in no way means that he is not like or similar to God.
.........................................................
Don't you believe that once you get to heaven and are a perfect spiritual being that you would be LIKE God in some sense i don't get why you are so opposed to such an obviously reasonable statement. You don't have to worry that if you agree that Michael is Like God you will get kicked out of the trinity club as it has nothing to do with equality with God but rather reflecting Gods personality., as we are ALL supposed to do.
....................................................

YoursTrue · Nov 12, 2019

Moz said:
If it says "one of the" then there must be at least three Chief Angels. So he's not leading all the angels as you think, he's just leading a part.
In Revelation chapter 12 it is Michael who leads the Angels... it does not say a division of Angels.
............................................
Each archangel has his own troop, with their own special task
A scriptural reference naming or even indicating that there are more than one CHIEF angel is needed here. You are just making stuff up.
................................................
. And the task of Michael and his troop is to pay attention to the people of God.
Yes! Michael is the Great Prince of Gods people........ who becomes the King in due time? The Prince!
...................................................
Michael is not like God.
Michael is a Perfect Spirit Creature who stood firm against the rebellion of Satan. If he remained in Good Standing it can only be because he reflects the nature of the Father and is therefore "like" God.
What is there about Michael that is NOT like God, apart from the omnipotence and stuff?
Surely the Arch Angel Michael, who actually spoke to man as if he WAS God (The burning Bush) would be the closest being in ALL creation to the Fathers personality, he is given the prime rank after all.
.....................................................
No man on earth and no angel in heaven is like God.
Only if you are referring to the omnipotent. omnipresent aspect. The Angelic Host, with Michael at its head, are fully in line with the Fathers will and reflect HIS goodness in their perfection. Jesus whole point was to teach us to be LIKE the Father. The Angels also aspire to be LIKE the Father and since they have been tested and found faithful they by definition must be LIKE the Father.
..........................................................
The name "Michael" does not mean that Michael is like God, but that nobody is like God. This name is a God-fearing name. If someone would ask a believer, "Who is like God?" he would answer "Nobody". And that is exactly what the name Michael wants to say.

I have no idea why you have added a question mark. Who is like God, means exactly what it says, that's why Michael is raised to the highest position in creation, he not only leads the Heavenly faithful but is given authority over Jehovah's earthly people as well, first as Prince then as King.
.................................................
For example, if I give someone a name that means "Who is like God?", then I don't want to say that this person is like God. (God forbid) But I want to symbolize that nobody is like God.
If the name "Michael" would say that the angel Michael is like God, then his name would mean "Like God" or "I am like God" but of course it does not.

WHAT is wrong with (God forbid) being LIKE God? Isn't that the aim of every faithful creature, to be more and more like God. To say some one is LIKE God is not some sort of blasphemy it is the ultimate accolade.

If we as imperfect humans are told to be LIKE God and to mold ourselves in HIS image as much as we can, how much more so would the Perfect Angels be a reflection of Their Father, how much more so would the highest Angel be the MOST like His Father. If you were to name the creation that was CLOSEST to the personality and essence of the Father, that you would want to set up as an example to the rest of creation of the way to please the Father who would you pick?

..................................................

Michael is described as the prince of Daniel's people at Daniel 12:1. I use the NET translation here, there are many different translations, but the point is that Michael is said to watch over Daniel's people and would arise later - "At that time Michael, the great prince who watches over your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress unlike any other from the nation's beginning up to that time. But at that time your own people, all those whose names are found written in the book, will escape."

Terry Sampson · Nov 12, 2019

THE Art Vandelay said:
A discerning reader can see, with little effort actually,

Actually, the discerning Mormon reader can see with little effort that, in his pre-mortal existence, Adam was the Archangel Michael;
Whereas the discerning Roman Catholic reader can see with little effort that
- Tobit 12:15. "I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in the glorious presence of the Lord, ready to serve him."
  - There are seven angels who stand in the presence of the Lord. Raphael was "one of them". Michael and Gabriel are two of the other angels. No others are named in the canonical Scriptures.
And then again, other discerning readers would name the other four angels, but disagree over their names. Seven Archangels - Wikipedia

THE Art Vandelay · Nov 13, 2019

Terry Sampson said:
Actually, the discerning Mormon reader can see with little effort that, in his pre-mortal existence, Adam was the Archangel Michael;

View attachment 34269

Whereas the discerning Roman Catholic reader can see with little effort that

Tobit 12:15. "I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in the glorious presence of the Lord, ready to serve him."

There are seven angels who stand in the presence of the Lord. Raphael was "one of them". Michael and Gabriel are two of the other angels. No others are named in the canonical Scriptures.

And then again, other discerning readers would name the other four angels, but disagree over their names. Seven Archangels - Wikipedia

And the more discerning reader can see what you posted is utter nonsense. Adam never had any prehuman existence, whereas Jesus did. And "Tobit" has no connection to the actual Bible canon.

calm · Nov 13, 2019

Moz said:
Eisenhower could be described as one of the "chief US Generals": of ww2 and that would in NO WAY negate that he was also supreme commander of Allied forces.

Please stay with the Bible.

Moz said:
That there are other Princes and Michael is one of them doesn't negate that he is referred to in Revelation as ARCH ANGEL or chief messenger as well

The terms "chief prince/angel" and "archangel" have the same meaning. As I said, the Old and New Testaments use different terms because they are written in different languages; nevertheless, both terms have the same meaning. "Archangel" means "a Chief Angel" or/and "a ruler of angels". Strong's Greek: 743. ἀρχάγγελος (archaggelos) -- a chief angel, i.e. archangel

Moz said:
The following accounts, one in Daniel the other from Revelation are referring to the SAME events yet Michael leads one and Jesus leads the other ..... WHY?

What makes you think that they' re the same events?

Moz said:
The "Word of God" is very much like the title "Chief Messenger" isn't it?
What is the actual difference? Help me out.

A Chief Messanger is a messenger who transmits messages; the Word of God is the Word of God, through the Word of God everything was created. (John 1:1-4)

Moz said:
So you do not consider the Angels to be "like" God? Perfect spirit creatures who are fully in line with Jehovah's will are not LIKE him in any way. OK.

What is it about Michael that you find to be UNLIKE God?

Surely Michael having been given the right to lead other Angels as well as God's earthly people would only be given that responsibility by God if he was a upstanding representation of what God wants.

I'm sorry, but I only believe what the Bible says. And as far as I know, according to the Bible, only people are similar to God. But if you would show me a Bible passage where the same is said about the angels, then I would change my view.

Moz said:
Again you have a strange view of what the word LIKE means. It DOES NOT mean equality, where did that come from. YES Michael is not EQUAL to God, which is what the scriptures you quoted refer to, but that in no way means that he is not like or similar to God.

Well, if you say that someone is like God, then you want to say that this person is equal to God.
What you interpret from that is your thing, but if the Bible says,
(Jeremiah 10:6 KJV)
Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD
then it means so.

Moz said:
Don't you believe that once you get to heaven and are a perfect spiritual being that you would be LIKE God in some sense i don't get why you are so opposed to such an obviously reasonable statement. You don't have to worry that if you agree that Michael is Like God you will get kicked out of the trinity club as it has nothing to do with equality with God but rather reflecting Gods personality., as we are ALL supposed to do.

Is one now if one is a spiritual being like God or is one like God if one has the same personality like god?
And what do you mean by personality to be like God? God judges, God forgives sins and God is a jealous God. So does it mean that Michael and all the other angels have the same characteristics?

"i don't get why you are so opposed to such an obviously reasonable statement."

Well, I believe what the Bible says, and it clearly says that nobody can be like God but you can follow God. And you don't follow God by having the same character as God, but by keeping God's laws.

Katzpur · Nov 13, 2019

THE Art Vandelay said:
Adam never had any prehuman existence, whereas Jesus did.

Why do you believe that Adam never had any prehuman existence? I believe all of us did.

YoursTrue · Nov 13, 2019

calm said:
Please stay with the Bible.

The terms "chief prince/angel" and "archangel" have the same meaning. As I said, the Old and New Testaments use different terms because they are written in different languages; nevertheless, both terms have the same meaning. "Archangel" means "a Chief Angel" or/and "a ruler of angels". Strong's Greek: 743. ἀρχάγγελος (archaggelos) -- a chief angel, i.e. archangel

What makes you think that they' re the same events?

A Chief Messanger is a messenger who transmits messages; the Word of God is the Word of God, through the Word of God everything was created. (John 1:1-4)

I'm sorry, but I only believe what the Bible says. And as far as I know, according to the Bible, only people are similar to God. But if you would show me a Bible passage where the same is said about the angels, then I would change my view.

Well, if you say that someone is like God, then you want to say that this person is equal to God.
What you interpret from that is your thing, but if the Bible says,
(Jeremiah 10:6 KJV)
Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD
then it means so.

Is one now if one is a spiritual being like God or is one like God if one has the same personality like god?
And what do you mean by personality to be like God? God judges, God forgives sins and God is a jealous God. So does it mean that Michael and all the other angels have the same characteristics?

"i don't get why you are so opposed to such an obviously reasonable statement."

Well, I believe what the Bible says, and it clearly says that nobody can be like God but you can follow God. And you don't follow God by having the same character as God, but by keeping God's laws.

Let's see if we can discuss this -- Daniel 12:1 says, ""Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."
How do you understand the description of Michael? "The great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people." Whose people is that, first of all?
Daniel 12:1 - New King James Version
"“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book."
There's a lot there in that scripture.

Moz · Nov 13, 2019

calm said:
Please stay with the Bible.

The terms "chief prince/angel" and "archangel" have the same meaning. As I said, the Old and New Testaments use different terms because they are written in different languages; nevertheless, both terms have the same meaning. "Archangel" means "a Chief Angel" or/and "a ruler of angels". Strong's Greek: 743. ἀρχάγγελος (archaggelos) -- a chief angel, i.e. archangel

What makes you think that they' re the same events?

A Chief Messanger is a messenger who transmits messages; the Word of God is the Word of God, through the Word of God everything was created. (John 1:1-4)

I'm sorry, but I only believe what the Bible says. And as far as I know, according to the Bible, only people are similar to God. But if you would show me a Bible passage where the same is said about the angels, then I would change my view.

Well, if you say that someone is like God, then you want to say that this person is equal to God.
What you interpret from that is your thing, but if the Bible says,
(Jeremiah 10:6 KJV)
Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD
then it means so.

Is one now if one is a spiritual being like God or is one like God if one has the same personality like god?
And what do you mean by personality to be like God? God judges, God forgives sins and God is a jealous God. So does it mean that Michael and all the other angels have the same characteristics?

"i don't get why you are so opposed to such an obviously reasonable statement."

Well, I believe what the Bible says, and it clearly says that nobody can be like God but you can follow God. And you don't follow God by having the same character as God, but by keeping God's laws.

What makes you think that they' re the same events?

i am not quite sure what separate events you think these scriptures could be referring to? it is the beginning of Armageddon and in one Michael leads and the other two Jesus leads..WHY?
Daniel 12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Matthew 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Rev19 : 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
..................................................

A Chief Messenger is a messenger who transmits messages;
Ok... so you are just going to ignore the CHIEF part of the title and say that Michael is merely one of the messengers and not the chief messenger that God used. So was Gabriel also a "chief messenger" as he was used to deliver messages ?

the Word of God is the Word of God,
The Word of God is the Word of God... brilliant ..and you say being the Word is about creation not the fact that John 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them and . Hebrew 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. It seems that a major part of Christ's mission was to be God's messenger but not the Chief Messenger apparently.
........................................................
I'm sorry, but I only believe what the Bible says. And as far as I know, according to the Bible, only people are similar to God. But if you would show me a Bible passage where the same is said about the angels, then I would change my view.

People are similar to God but still a little lower than Angels............Ps 8:5 You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

The let us make man in our image line from Genesis has been torn apart from many angles and one of the interpretations is that Jehovah is speaking to the Heavenly host when he says in OUR image. That would suppose that Angels AND human were created to reflect Gods righteousness. This shows that the idea that Angels are also created in Gods image is a widely held understanding. That is not unreasonable is it? Surely he did not make a sentient creation that was NOTHING like himself.
...................................................
Well, if you say that someone is like God, then you want to say that this person is equal to God.
NO... it is YOU who insists that Like means equal. I DO NOT want to say Michael is equal to God but that he is "Similar or Like" God, just as his name says he is.
.........................................
And what do you mean by personality to be like God? God judges, God forgives sins and God is a jealous God. So does it mean that Michael and all the other angels have the same characteristics?
Where is says we are made in Gods image what do you think it means?
It doesn't mean that God looks like us does it, it is referring to Gods qualities that we can reflect. We have the ability to mirror Gods characteristics, we.....Judge... We.... Forgive.

Does that mean that Michael and the other Angels have the same characteristics... well if they were in opposition to Gods character then they would have followed satan in his rebellion wouldn't they?
............................................
Well, I believe what the Bible says, and it clearly says that nobody can be like God but you can follow God. And you don't follow God by having the same character as God, but by keeping God's laws

You don't follow God by having the same character as God? Really. Matt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
..................................................

THE Art Vandelay · Nov 13, 2019

Katzpur said:
Why do you believe that Adam never had any prehuman existence? I believe all of us did.

And that's an absurd belief you have, based on nothing at all.

YoursTrue · Nov 13, 2019

Moz said:
What makes you think that they' re the same events?

i am not quite sure what separate events you think these scriptures could be referring to? it is the beginning of Armageddon and in one Michael leads and the other two Jesus leads..WHY?
Daniel 12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Matthew 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Rev19 : 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
..................................................

A Chief Messenger is a messenger who transmits messages;
Ok... so you are just going to ignore the CHIEF part of the title and say that Michael is merely one of the messengers and not the chief messenger that God used. So was Gabriel also a "chief messenger" as he was used to deliver messages ?

the Word of God is the Word of God,
The Word of God is the Word of God... brilliant ..and you say being the Word is about creation not the fact that John 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them and . Hebrew 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. It seems that a major part of Christ's mission was to be God's messenger but not the Chief Messenger apparently.
........................................................
I'm sorry, but I only believe what the Bible says. And as far as I know, according to the Bible, only people are similar to God. But if you would show me a Bible passage where the same is said about the angels, then I would change my view.

People are similar to God but still a little lower than Angels............Ps 8:5 You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

The let us make man in our image line from Genesis has been torn apart from many angles and one of the interpretations is that Jehovah is speaking to the Heavenly host when he says in OUR image. That would suppose that Angels AND human were created to reflect Gods righteousness. This shows that the idea that Angels are also created in Gods image is a widely held understanding. That is not unreasonable is it? Surely he did not make a sentient creation that was NOTHING like himself.
...................................................
Well, if you say that someone is like God, then you want to say that this person is equal to God.
NO... it is YOU who insists that Like means equal. I DO NOT want to say Michael is equal to God but that he is "Similar or Like" God, just as his name says he is.
.........................................
And what do you mean by personality to be like God? God judges, God forgives sins and God is a jealous God. So does it mean that Michael and all the other angels have the same characteristics?
Where is says we are made in Gods image what do you think it means?
It doesn't mean that God looks like us does it, it is referring to Gods qualities that we can reflect. We have the ability to mirror Gods characteristics, we.....Judge... We.... Forgive.

Does that mean that Michael and the other Angels have the same characteristics... well if they were in opposition to Gods character then they would have followed satan in his rebellion wouldn't they?
............................................
Well, I believe what the Bible says, and it clearly says that nobody can be like God but you can follow God. And you don't follow God by having the same character as God, but by keeping God's laws

You don't follow God by having the same character as God? Really. Matt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
..................................................

So because we are discussing Michael, I'd be interested in your thought as to what was said at Daniel 12:1, about Daniel's people? Who were Daniel's people? Daniel 12:1 - “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book." Who were being referred to as Daniel's people? Thank you.

Katzpur · Nov 13, 2019

THE Art Vandelay said:
And that's an absurd belief you have, based on nothing at all.

And yours, obviously not absurd, is based on what?

Moz · Nov 13, 2019

YoursTrue said:
So because we are discussing Michael, I'd be interested in your thought as to what was said at Daniel 12:1, about Daniel's people? Who were Daniel's people? Daniel 12:1 - “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book." Who were being referred to as Daniel's people? Thank you.

Hi.
My thoughts on who the people referred to in Daniel are can be clearly shown by the parallel accounts from the Christian scriptures in Revelation specifically but also the other portions where the events of the last days are alluded to, therefor the people Michael stands up for is the restored Israel of God who reject and abandon Babylon the great in the last days..

I see the progression of references to Michael sort of like this in Daniel 10 he is referred to as , one of the princes. In Daniel 12, which is after the incarnation but before the coronation he is called Great Prince, in the Christian Scriptures he is called Arch Angel first and then King when he has accomplished his role and gained the right to the Kingship through His obedience. In Revelation 19, which is after the coronation the title of Michael and Arch Angel are not used and he is identified as the Word of God and King of Kings. If looked at in the chronological order of events the progression of grander titles makes perfect sense.

calm · Nov 13, 2019

Moz said:
i am not quite sure what separate events you think these scriptures could be referring to? it is the beginning of Armageddon and in one Michael leads and the other two Jesus leads..WHY?
Daniel 12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Matthew 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Rev19 : 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any connection between these two events. Yes, both will take place in the end times, but they are not the same events.
Daniel 12:1 refers to Revelation 12:7-17 and not to Revelation 19:14 or to Revelation 19:11.

Moz said:
Ok... so you are just going to ignore the CHIEF part of the title and say that Michael is merely one of the messengers and not the chief messenger that God used. So was Gabriel also a "chief messenger" as he was used to deliver messages ?

The term "Chief Messanger" does not appear in the Bible at all. I assume that you derive the term "Chief Messenger" from the title "Archangel". And that's not wrong, because the term "Archangel" can also mean "Chief Messenger"; as I said, the definition of "Archangel" is "a Chief Angel", and the definition of "Angel" can be "Messenger". So your conclusion that Michael is a "chief messenger" is justified. But the Bible says that there are several Chief Angels/Messangers because Daniel 10:13 says, "Michael one of the Chief Princes".
If it says "one of the" then there must be at least three persons, and yes I assume that Gabriel is one of them.

Moz said:
The Word of God is the Word of God... brilliant ..and you say being the Word is about creation not the fact that John 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them and . Hebrew 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. It seems that a major part of Christ's mission was to be God's messenger but not the Chief Messenger apparently.

The Word of God is not a messenger. The Word of God is what it means, it is the Word of God and God Himself is His Word, just as you are Your Word. Through the Word of God, God created everything. And God begat his Word and it became a son to him. And this Son later became flesh and blood.
John 1:1-3 +14 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I have a question for you, can you show me with the Bible where it is said that Jesus was created?

Moz said:
People are similar to God but still a little lower than Angels............Ps 8:5 You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

Yes, the people were made lower by God, but we were not created lower by God.
The first man, Adam, was perfect in the beginning, but through his sin he lost his glory and was therefore made lower by God. But the people who will receive eternal life will receive the glory that Adam lost, they will be greater than the angels and greater than any other created being.

These people will judge the angels:
(1 Corinthians 6:3 KJV)
Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

The angels will serve these people:
(Hebrews 1:14 KJV)
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And these people will be Kings:
(Revelation 1:6 KJV)
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Moz said:
The let us make man in our image line from Genesis has been torn apart from many angles and one of the interpretations is that Jehovah is speaking to the Heavenly host when he says in OUR image. That would suppose that Angels AND human were created to reflect Gods righteousness. This shows that the idea that Angels are also created in Gods image is a widely held understanding. That is not unreasonable is it? Surely he did not make a sentient creation that was NOTHING like himself.

No, the angels were not created in the same way as God created the man. Nowhere does the Bible say that.
People are the only beings who, according to the Bible, have some attributes that are God's attributes. That is why it says "Man is similar to God.".

Moz said:
I DO NOT want to say Michael is equal to God but that he is "Similar or Like" God, just as his name says he is.

Nobody is like God. (Jeremiah 10:6, Exodus 8:10, 2 Samuel 7:22)

Moz said:
Where is says we are made in Gods image what do you think it means?
It doesn't mean that God looks like us does it,

Never claimed that.

Moz said:
it is referring to Gods qualities that we can reflect. We have the ability to mirror Gods characteristics, we.....Judge... We.... Forgive.

Right; and do the angels have these characteristics or only we people? What do you say?

Moz said:
Does that mean that Michael and the other Angels have the same characteristics... well if they were in opposition to Gods character then they would have followed satan in his rebellion wouldn't they?

Define this statement.

Moz said:
You don't follow God by having the same character as God? Really. Matt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

By this Jesus means the attribute of love. We should not only love our friends but also our enemies, this is what the context of this verse says.
And as I said before, we people possess some of God's attributes, and that includes love. So of course he does not mean that we should be like God in everything (that wouldn't work either), but that we should act like God in the attribute of love.

THE Art Vandelay · Nov 13, 2019

Katzpur said:
And yours, obviously not absurd, is based on what?

The Bible.

Moz · Nov 13, 2019

calm said:
I'm sorry, but I don't see any connection between these two events. Yes, both will take place in the end times, but they are not the same events.
Daniel 12:1 refers to Revelation 12:7-17 and not to Revelation 19:14 or to Revelation 19:11.

The term "Chief Messanger" does not appear in the Bible at all. I assume that you derive the term "Chief Messenger" from the title "Archangel". And that's not wrong, because the term "Archangel" can also mean "Chief Messenger"; as I said, the definition of "Archangel" is "a Chief Angel", and the definition of "Angel" can be "Messenger". So your conclusion that Michael is a "chief messenger" is justified. But the Bible says that there are several Chief Angels/Messangers because Daniel 10:13 says, "Michael one of the Chief Princes".
If it says "one of the" then there must be at least three persons, and yes I assume that Gabriel is one of them.

The Word of God is not a messenger. The Word of God is what it means, it is the Word of God and God Himself is His Word, just as you are Your Word. Through the Word of God, God created everything. And God begat his Word and it became a son to him. And this Son later became flesh and blood.
John 1:1-3 +14 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I have a question for you, can you show me with the Bible where it is said that Jesus was created?

Yes, the people were made lower by God, but we were not created lower by God.
The first man, Adam, was perfect in the beginning, but through his sin he lost his glory and was therefore made lower by God. But the people who will receive eternal life will receive the glory that Adam lost, they will be greater than the angels and greater than any other created being.

These people will judge the angels:
(1 Corinthians 6:3 KJV)
Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

The angels will serve these people:
(Hebrews 1:14 KJV)
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And these people will be Kings:
(Revelation 1:6 KJV)
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

No, the angels were not created in the same way as God created the man. Nowhere does the Bible say that.
People are the only beings who, according to the Bible, have some attributes that are God's attributes. That is why it says "Man is similar to God.".

Nobody is like God. (Jeremiah 10:6, Exodus 8:10, 2 Samuel 7:22)

Never claimed that.

Right; and do the angels have these characteristics or only we people? What do you say?

Define this statement.

By this Jesus means the attribute of love. We should not only love our friends but also our enemies, this is what the context of this verse says.
And as I said before, we people possess some of God's attributes, and that includes love. So of course he does not mean that we should be like God in everything (that wouldn't work either), but that we should act like God in the attribute of love.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any connection between these two events. Yes, both will take place in the end times, but they are not the same events.
Daniel 12:1 refers to Revelation 12:7-17 and not to Revelation 19:14 or to Revelation 19:11.

Daniel 11 and 12 are describing warfare against the nations.... Revelation 12 is describing heavenly warfare, angel against angel. Rev 19 is describing warfare against the nations its not that difficult. Please explain how you can read Dan 11 as referring to Satan and the other angels that followed him being casting from heaven.
.......................................
But the Bible says that there are several Chief Angels/Messangers because Daniel 10:13 says, "Michael one of the Chief Princes".
If it says "one of the" then there must be at least three persons, and yes I assume that Gabriel is one of them.

You keep conflating the term chief Prince and Chief messenger as if they are the same thing. No matter how much you WISH it says that there are several Chief Angels/Messangers because Daniel 10:13 says, "Michael one of the Chief Princes". It does NOT say that. PRINCE and ANGEL are not interchangeable words in this passage.
There is no argument from me that there are hierarchies of power and responsibility in the heavenly host, God is a god of order after all, so Michael being included as one of those angels does not mean he was also not the highest rank.. for you to exclude the possibility because of a trinitarian bias is dangerous.
.......................................
The Word of God is not a messenger.
I do not even know what to say to such a comment.
...............................................
I have a question for you, can you show me with the Bible where it is said that Jesus was created?
Well i would quote the scriptures about Firstborn and Only Begotten but apparently those words mean different things in this case. The fact i speak and read English and know what the words mean is somehow a disadvantage when talking trinity stuff. so i really do not want to go there.
.........................................
No, the angels were not created in the same way as God created the man. Nowhere does the Bible say that.
People are the only beings who, according to the Bible, have some attributes that are God's attributes. That is why it says "Man is similar to God.".

Ok.... There is nothing definitive about the Angels so all i can do is apply common sense. I view the faithful Angles as beings who through their own free will chose to stay loyal to God. The fact that some Angels rebelled and chose "human pleasures" shows that we are more similar than you want to acknowledge.
If you think the Angels are nothing like Gods other sentient creation and he implemented a completely different moral and behavioral pattern on them then i guess there is no proof that i can give you to show that you are wrong.
The Angels in your opinion have NONE of Gods attributes, which going by your closing paragraph would also mean love, i honestly can not understand how you can think this.
...........................................
it is referring to Gods qualities that we can reflect. We have the ability to mirror Gods characteristics, we.....Judge... We.... Forgive.
Right; and do the angels have these characteristics or only we people? What do you say?

Ok this may be a bit deep but follow along if you can....... If you look at Ezekiel Chapter one you will get a detailed description of the Cherubim these beings have four faces, the face of a Man,a Lion , an Ox and an Eagle these faces reflect the major attributes of God .... Love Justice Wisdom and Power. This would seem to indicate that the Angels reflect the attributes of their God and Father.
So YES the Angles also reflect the characteristics and attributes of God to the best of their ability just as every other sentient being is supposed too.
You must know that the Angels are also "sons of God"... sons are somewhat like their Fathers aren't they?
..........................................
↑
Does that mean that Michael and the other Angels have the same characteristics... well if they were in opposition to Gods character then they would have followed satan in his rebellion wouldn't they?
Define this statement.

I am not sure what there is to define. You do know that the Angels were tested as well right? The pre-flood world was the world in which the Angels made their choice of loyalty to God or rebellion against God. The Angels that stayed loyal did so because they chose to conform to the Fathers direction just as the loyal humans will also need to chose to conform to the Fathers direction. We are not as different as you seem to think.
......................................
By this Jesus means the attribute of love. We should not only love our friends but also our enemies, this is what the context of this verse says.
And as I said before, we people possess some of God's attributes, and that includes love.

Ok.. we humans are obligated to Love but the Angles aren't?
..........................................
So of course he does not mean that we should be like God in everything (that wouldn't work either), but that we should act like God in the attribute of love

Oh of course, only Love. So are we unable to exercise justice, power and wisdom? What sort of attributes of God wouldn't work if you tried to apply them in your life. Are you so hung up on omnipotence and omnipresence that you think that is all Jehovah is about?

Katzpur · Nov 13, 2019

THE Art Vandelay said:
The Bible.

Seriously? Is that really the best you can do? If you're so certain that the Bible teaches that none of us had a pre-mortal life, you ought to be able to provide me with a specific passage.

Jesus being michael

Active Member

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

Active Member

Member

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Well-Known Member

Member

Active Member

Not your average Mormon

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

Member

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Not your average Mormon

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

Active Member

Member

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

Not your average Mormon