Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

paarsurrey · Nov 12, 2019

Howard Is said:
There is no need to seek God’s help.

Trust in your own righteousness.

And be prepared for a world that doesn’t necessarily agree with you.

Also, be prepared to discover you are wrong, and not hang yourself over it.

I don't agree with one for myself:

[2:201]فَاِذَا قَضَیۡتُمۡ مَّنَاسِکَکُمۡ فَاذۡکُرُوا اللّٰہَ کَذِکۡرِکُمۡ اٰبَآءَکُمۡ اَوۡ اَشَدَّ ذِکۡرًا ؕ فَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنۡ یَّقُوۡلُ رَبَّنَاۤ اٰتِنَا فِی الدُّنۡیَا وَ مَا لَہٗ فِی الۡاٰخِرَۃِ مِنۡ خَلَاقٍ ﴿۲۰۱﴾
And when you have performed the acts of worship prescribed for you, celebrate the praises of Allah as you celebrated the praises of your fathers, or even more than that. And of men there are some who say, ‘Our Lord, grant us good things in this world;’ and such a one shall have no share in the Hereafter.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
There is a life after this life when one dies. If one could do deeds that are best in/for this world and also best in/for the Hereafter, why shouldn't one do that, please?
I don't agree with one for myself, therefore.

Regards

Howard Is · Nov 12, 2019

Evangelicalhumanist said:
But in our own time, we've seen the sorts of people who actually do make the assumption that they're getting their guidance directly from Ultimate Authority. They are they David Koresh, Charles Manson and Marshall Applewhite types. And they don't inspire a lot of confidence in me.

Yep. Hence ‘ultra-narcissist’.

That’s why I appreciate the Buddhist view. It affirms that the wisdom you seek is an aspect of your own nature. Buddha himself said to not believe him if your experience and reason don’t confirm what he said.

Howard Is · Nov 12, 2019

paarsurrey said:
And when you have performed the acts of worship prescribed for you

The word worship needs to be clarified.

Can you please describe what you are doing and experiencing when you worship ?

Does the Quran clearly describe what is meant by worship ?

Perhaps you could post that.

So again, what I am interested to know is what is happening when you ‘worship’. In other words, can you describe what is termed the noetic act, in your own words rather than scripture.

Thank you.

paarsurrey · Nov 12, 2019

A Vestigial Mote said:
And so, do you admit that this portion of the Quran (this "ummul kitab") was written by men? It is written from the perspective of men, right, please?

The only problem being that you titled this thread with the idea that God Himself authored the Quran, and the only scripture you quoted was from this "ummul kitab". So doesn't it stand to reason that YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD WROTE THE "ummul kitab?" And if you do believe this, then PLEASE answer my original question: WHY would God write these words from the perspective of a worshiper/believer who is decidedly a MAN? WHY?

"WHY would God write these words"

G-d has facilitated the human beings, there is nothing wrong with it. I don't see.

Regards

loverofhumanity · Nov 13, 2019

paarsurrey said:
"Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Guide us in the right path." Quran 1:5-6 by G-d.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
Does one agree with the above? Or one doesn't?

Regards

Agree fully because I believe the Quran is the Word of God and the right path and asking God to guide us in the right path is reminding us that we are human and although we may have found the right path may not walk it rightly.

For instance, terrorists claim to believe in the Quran but fail to walk the right path because they have listened to some charismatic leader instead of obeying the Quran or following a Hadith instead of the Quran. It’s a prayer asking God for protection from going astray off the right path which is the Word of God not any leader’s whim.

If one obeys the Quranic instructions then they cannot lie, cheat, steal, murder or commit crimes. But does everyone who says they believe walk the path? No, so that is why there is an invocation or plea to God to help them walk or practice the right path not just verbally believe in it.

The ‘right path’ was also revealed by Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Christ, the Bab and Baha’u’llah so I believe that these words in the Quran are also asking God to guide us to accept the right path as taught by all the teachers not just the Quran as other religions are also the ‘right path’ according to the Quran. Also, in essence the Words of the Quran it is my firm belief, do not conflict with those of Buddha or Krishna or Christ. They all teach morality and virtue. They are all the ‘right path’.

paarsurrey · Nov 13, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
Agree fully because I believe the Quran is the Word of God and the right path and asking God to guide us in the right path is reminding us that we are human and although we may have found the right path may not walk it rightly.

For instance, terrorists claim to believe in the Quran but fail to walk the right path because they have listened to some charismatic leader instead of obeying the Quran or following a Hadith instead of the Quran. It’s a prayer asking God for protection from going astray off the right path which is the Word of God not any leader’s whim.

If one obeys the Quranic instructions then they cannot lie, cheat, steal, murder or commit crimes. But does everyone who says they believe walk the path? No, so that is why there is an invocation or plea to God to help them walk or practice the right path not just verbally believe in it.

The ‘right path’ was also revealed by Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Christ, the Bab and Baha’u’llah so I believe that these words in the Quran are also asking God to guide us to accept the right path as taught by all the teachers not just the Quran as other religions are also the ‘right path’ according to the Quran. Also, in essence the Words of the Quran it is my firm belief, do not conflict with those of Buddha or Krishna or Christ. They all teach morality and virtue. They are all the ‘right path’.

One has agreed with the verse, for the purposes of this thread, it is sufficient. One could have different opinions on the other details in one's post, out of one's own free-will.

Regards

paarsurrey · Nov 13, 2019

Howard Is said:
The word worship needs to be clarified.

Can you please describe what you are doing and experiencing when you worship ?

Does the Quran clearly describe what is meant by worship ?

Perhaps you could post that.

So again, what I am interested to know is what is happening when you ‘worship’. In other words, can you describe what is termed the noetic act, in your own words rather than scripture.

Thank you.

"The word worship needs to be clarified."

It means receiving the impress of G-d’s attributes:
Quran Verse- 2:138
M. M. Pickthall

"(We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers."
al-Baqarah 2:138
And G-d has all good attributes to get impress of them in one's self. Right, please?

Regards

paarsurrey · Nov 13, 2019

paarsurrey said:
"Alif Lam Mim . (I am Allah, the All-Knowing.) This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; a guidance for the righteous." Quran 2-3 by G-d.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
https://www.alislam.org/quran/selected-verses/English.pdf

[32:3]تَنۡزِیۡلُ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا رَیۡبَ فِیۡہِ مِنۡ رَّبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ؕ﴿۳﴾
"The revelation of the Book — there is no doubt about it — is from the Lord of the worlds."
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 32: As-Sajdah
Quran authored by G-d not by Muhammad. Right,please?

Regards

Subduction Zone · Nov 13, 2019

paarsurrey said:
[32:3]تَنۡزِیۡلُ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا رَیۡبَ فِیۡہِ مِنۡ رَّبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ؕ﴿۳﴾
"The revelation of the Book — there is no doubt about it — is from the Lord of the worlds."
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 32: As-Sajdah
Quran authored by G-d not by Muhammad. Right,please?

Regards

You need more than circular reasoning. If the book of the Pastafarians says that Quob is real does that prove his existence?

Howard Is · Nov 13, 2019

paarsurrey said:
[32:3]تَنۡزِیۡلُ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا رَیۡبَ فِیۡہِ مِنۡ رَّبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ؕ﴿۳﴾
"The revelation of the Book — there is no doubt about it — is from the Lord of the worlds."
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 32: As-Sajdah
Quran authored by G-d not by Muhammad. Right,please?

Regards

@Subduction Zone is correct. That is a circular argument, and so has no validity.

Subduction Zone · Nov 13, 2019

Howard Is said:
@Subduction Zone is correct. That is a circular argument, and so has no validity.

Wait, wait!! I am rethinking that. Since Pastafarians have arguably the best heaven of all religions (I mean, beer volcanoes and stripper factories, who can argue against that?). perhaps some irrational belief is justified.

All hail Quob!! May you be touched by her/his/its Noodly Appendages!! Ramen.

Howard Is · Nov 13, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Wait, wait!! I am rethinking that. Since Pastafarians have arguably the best heaven of all religions (I mean, beer volcanoes and stripper factories, who can argue against that?). perhaps some irrational belief is justified.

All hail Quob!! May you be touched by her/his/its Noodly Appendages!! Ramen.

God told me that I am God.
You can’t argue with that

Subduction Zone · Nov 13, 2019

Howard Is said:
God told me that I am God.
You can’t argue with that

All hail Howard Is!!

As long as the deal is still on for the beer volcanoes and stripper factories.

A Vestigial Mote · Nov 13, 2019

paarsurrey said:
"WHY would God write these words"

G-d has facilitated the human beings, there is nothing wrong with it. I don't see.

Regards

It is strange. Extremely strange. If you don't see how strange it is for God to have influenced/inspired/forced human beings to write about how much they should worship and adore Him above all others, then I don't know what to tell you. It is just plain weird. He basically facilitated/guided/coerced human beings to write that they love Him, and should love Him, and should hold Him above all other things. It is conceit and megalomania, arrogance and domineering. It also displays a complete lack of self-confidence, if you ask me - otherwise He wouldn't worry about making people write that they love Him and adore Him, and place Him above all else. He would just understand that He was what He was, and would not require praise from anyone. As it stands, it is obvious from YOUR words that God had an agenda. He "facilitated" that people adore Him and hold Him in high regard, by influencing or guiding them to write about it in The Quran/Bible. And I can think of no other reason for Him to have done that except that He felt He needed it in some way... and that, to my mind, displays the same kinds of weakness in this regard that the vast majority of humans also display - the need to feel adoration from others for self-validation.

Howard Is · Nov 13, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
All hail Howard Is!!

As long as the deal is still on for the beer volcanoes and stripper factories.

I am not an interventionist God.
But you seem like a worshipful lad, maybe I can make an exception.

A Vestigial Mote · Nov 13, 2019

Howard Is said:
God told me that I am God.
You can’t argue with that

Just like "I am"... instead it's "Howard Is." That's iron-clad evidence right there... at least it would seem so based on what a lot of others I have talked to say counts as evidence.

Howard Is · Nov 13, 2019

A Vestigial Mote said:
Just like "I am"... instead it's "Howard Is." That's iron-clad evidence right there... at least it would seem so based on what a lot of others I have talked to say counts as evidence.

My apostles are gathering around me.
Let there be no light beer !

paarsurrey · Nov 13, 2019

gnostic said:
Tell that to town called Taif (630).

When Muhammad came to Taif before going to Medina (622), they refused give him and his followers refuge. 8 years later he laid siege to Taif (630). When they surrendered to Muhammad, he refused their surrender unless they all converted.

That’s compulsion, paarsurrey.

What would Muhammad have done, if Taif townspeople didn’t convert? Would he order them to be executed for not accepting Islam?

Muhammad didn’t give them much of a choice. He had an army that could wipe them out if they didn’t convert.

Do you think the rest of Arabia would convert, if Muhammad didn’t come to their villages, towns or cities with a large army?

One could quote such verses of Quran ,with the verses in the context*, which one says show compulsion.
There is no restriction on one. Right, please?

Regards
________________
*some preceding verses and some following

Wandering Monk · Nov 13, 2019

This forum is Science AND Religion, not Science OR Religion. This thread has not made any connection between science AND religion.

paarsurrey · Nov 13, 2019

LuisDantas said:
Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

How or why would I even consider worshiping "God"? Particularly the God of the Qur'an?

"God of the Qur'an"

One may quote such verse*/s that demonstrate "God of the Qur'an". One is welcome.

Regards
____________
*with the verses in the context ,some preceding verses and some following.

Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

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