In your understanding, What did Jesus mean by this?

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

(Gen. 1:1) is the original creation. The point is God created it. Making Him separate from it.

(Gen. 1:2) is not the original creation. It is the condition of the earth after a severe judgement from God.

The point is, The Spirit of God is not the waters. The Spirit of God is not the earth.

As I said, believe what you want, but don't try and say the Bible teaches God and the creation are the same. They are not.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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hell is the absence of god. Man created hell by separating himself from God.

Unformed and uncreated are synonyms. Or without form literally means without yet being in a state of created.


Synonyms of create | Thesaurus.com

You cannot have oneness with God and be divided. Such a house will fall.

Fool said:

hell is the absence of god. Man created hell by separating himself from God.

Unformed and uncreated are synonyms. Or without form literally means without yet being in a state of created.


Synonyms of create | Thesaurus.com

You cannot have oneness with God and be divided. Such a house will fall.

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'Without form and void' means 'a wasteland, ruined, and desolate'. It does not mean 'uncreated'.

See (Jer. 4:1-31). God is reasoning with a rebellious Israel. She is under the judgement of God and He is about to bring in the Babylonians to complete it. He describes an Israel as destroyed already. (4:20) "Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled...."

God then uses the same words, 'without form and void' to describe her condition. (4:23) 'I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.' In other words, desolation due to judgement.

This same condition would be used by God as reason for Israel to have 'hope' in the midst of this judgement. For just as God restored the earth, which is the 6 day creation, so He would not completely destroy Israel. (4:27) 'For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.'

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

'Without form and void' means 'a wasteland, ruined, and desolate'. It does not mean 'uncreated'.

See (Jer. 4:1-31). God is reasoning with a rebellious Israel. She is under the judgement of God and He is about to bring in the Babylonians to complete it. He describes an Israel as destroyed already. (4:20) "Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled...."

God then uses the same words, 'without form and void' to describe her condition. (4:23) 'I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.' In other words, desolation due to judgement.

This same condition would be used by God as reason for Israel to have 'hope' in the midst of this judgement. For just as God restored the earth, which is the 6 day creation, so He would not completely destroy Israel. (4:27) 'For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.'

Good-Ole-Rebel

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void of form, or emptiness of form simply means uncreated. to you that may seem desolate but then people become attached in their minds to all kinds of vanities. god is infinite and deep, unfathomable, undefinable.


something void, or empty isn't desolate. they aren't synonyms. the waters are called the deep, or an abyss for a reason.

empty of form again simply means without form.

god has no exclusive form. this is why idolatry is forbidden. so god is exclusively no thing, or empty of form but inclusively everything of spirit.


Deuteronomy 4:15-16


Job 11:7

Fool said:

void of form, or emptiness of form simply means uncreated. to you that may seem desolate but then people become attached in their minds to all kinds of vanities. god is infinite and deep, unfathomable, undefinable.


something void, or empty isn't desolate. they aren't synonyms. the waters are called the deep, or an abyss for a reason.

empty of form again simply means without form.

god has no exclusive form. this is why idolatry is forbidden. so god is exclusively no thing, or empty of form but inclusively everything of spirit.


Deuteronomy 4:15-16


Job 11:7

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'Without form and void' does not mean uncreated. I just showed you in the Scripture. Pay attention.

God does have form. God's form is the form of a man. Thus He created Adam in His image.

(Deuteronomy 4:15-16) adds nothing to what is being said.

Concerning (Job 11:7), it is declaring that one cannot find God by searching. God is found only if He reveals Himself. But here you must be careful how you use a quote. Understand that the three friends of Job were giving him some 'true' statements but bad advice. You must be able to support their statements with other Scripture for God was not pleased with what they said.

(Job 42:7) And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

Good-Ole-Rebel

Amanaki said:

the kingdom of God is within you.

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Probably this verse means that the physical kingdom the Jews expected isn't going to happen after all, considering that the Romans destroyed the temple and Jerusalem (in 70 AD). So now, you have to transfer all those hopes and dreams and longings to something spiritual, to something inside of you, perhaps even to the Spirit of God which indwells you. This spiritual kingdom is now the true kingdom.

But you will finally get to experience the utopian physical kingdom the Jews were awaiting. Here's how:

In the New Heavens and New Earth, you will enjoy the physical kingdom in your resurrected body; this, if you internalized the message and chose to become a member of Christ's brotherhood by receiving him in faith and etc. -- all of this occurring within you, as an internal phenomena.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

'Without form and void' does not mean uncreated. I just showed you in the Scripture. Pay attention.

God does have form. God's form is the form of a man. Thus He created Adam in His image.

(Deuteronomy 4:15-16) adds nothing to what is being said.

Concerning (Job 11:7), it is declaring that one cannot find God by searching. God is found only if He reveals Himself. But here you must be careful how you use a quote. Understand that the three friends of Job were giving him some 'true' statements but bad advice. You must be able to support their statements with other Scripture for God was not pleased with what they said.

(Job 42:7) And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

Good-Ole-Rebel

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the uncreated creator doesn't have a form. Nothing created it. Man was made

Fool said:

the uncreated creator doesn't have a form. Nothing created it. Man was made

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(John 5:37) "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

What shape would that be?

(Gen. 1:27) "So God created man in his own image,...."

Believe as you please. Don't try and conform the Bible to your belief.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

(John 5:37) "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

What shape would that be?

(Gen. 1:27) "So God created man in his own image,...."

Believe as you please. Don't try and conform the Bible to your belief.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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no shape again means no form.

God doesn't have contrast. Without contrast and God being infinite, God has no shape or form.

a form requires contrast to something else. The Bible tells you that there is nothing apart from God, no otherness. God is omipresent so it cannot have contrast.

God is infinite. Meaning it has no beginning and no end.so it has no form, no shape, no definition. There is no anthropomorphic being setting somewhere out there and waiting for you to come to heaven

Deuteronomy 30:12-14

The god you are looking for is within the kingdom of heart and mind. And you seem to be a bit confused when Jesus told you within.

This what it says about those without the kingdom.

Revelation 22:15

Fool said:

no shape again means no form.

God doesn't have contrast. Without contrast and God being infinite, God has no shape or form.

a form requires contrast to something else. The Bible tells you that there is nothing apart from God, no otherness. God is omipresent so it cannot have contrast.

God is infinite. Meaning it has no beginning and no end.so it has no form, no shape, no definition. There is no anthropomorphic being setting somewhere out there and waiting for you to come to heaven

Deuteronomy 30:12-14

The god you are looking for is within the kingdom of heart and mind. And you seem to be a bit confused when Jesus told you within.

This what it says about those without the kingdom.

Revelation 22:15

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No, the Bible says God is. And God created. Thus He is separate from the creation.

Jesus said to the Jews who sought to kill Him that they had not know the Father, or seen His shape or heard His voice. And He is the One Who sent Christ. It means the Father has shape, and a voice, and is a Person.

That shape is the shape of man. As I told you.

I am not looking for God. I know Who He is. I was found by Him years ago.

You give verses that don't say anything to what you are trying to pitch. What is the purpose?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

No, the Bible says God is. And God created. Thus He is separate from the creation.

Jesus said to the Jews who sought to kill Him that they had not know the Father, or seen His shape or heard His voice. And He is the One Who sent Christ. It means the Father has shape, and a voice, and is a Person.

That shape is the shape of man. As I told you.

I am not looking for God. I know Who He is. I was found by Him years ago.

You give verses that don't say anything to what you are trying to pitch. What is the purpose?

Good-Ole-Rebel

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Jesus said the father is Spirit. He never claims God the Creator is a person.

John 4:24

Have you actually ever read the entire Bible? More than once?

Fool said:

Jesus said the father is Spirit. He never claims God the Creator is a person.

John 4:24

Have you actually ever read the entire Bible? More than once?

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Being Spirit does not negate 'person'. Who made that rule? You?

I am a little familiar with the Bible. Enough to know what you're trying to say is wrong.

Jesus said when addressing the Father, (John 17:5) "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Being Spirit does not negate 'person'. Who made that rule? You?

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The Bible writers made that distinction. A spirit and a soul, or person, are not the same thing. The spirit is not created. A person, soul is created.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

am a little familiar with the Bible. Enough to know what you're trying to say is wrong.

Jesus said when addressing the Father, (John 17:5) "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Good-Ole-Rebel

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Jesus existed only as a Spirit before becoming a soul. As a believer you do believe the spirit existed before becoming good ole rebel? And once you drop those earthly clothing you will have left behind your earthly identity?

Fool said:

The Bible writers made that distinction. A spirit and a soul, or person, are not the same thing. The spirit is not created. A person, soul is created.

Jesus existed only as a Spirit before becoming a soul. As a believer you do believe the spirit existed before becoming good ole rebel? And once you drop those earthly clothing you will have left behind your earthly identity?

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Where? No. Again, Being Spirit does not negate person.

You said Jesus never said God is a Person. I showed you that He did in (John 17:5) "with thine own self". Now what?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Where? No. Again, Being Spirit does not negate person.

You said Jesus never said God is a Person. I showed you that He did in (John 17:5) "with thine own self". Now what?

Good-Ole-Rebel

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The OT explicitly states that god is not a person, or son of man. unless you're going to state that the bible is fallible at this point.

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

self in john 17:5 doesn't mean a person. its a masculine pronoun because the culture was masculine dominated.


jesus also told you to call "no man" good because only god is good; then god the absolute is not a person, a human, a man.

the overall issue with your form of christianity is that it promotes idolatry. the bible, nor jesus, ever condoned idolatry for any created, begotten thing. idolatry is literally the abomination that causes desolation.

Fool said:

The OT explicitly states that god is not a person, or son of man. unless you're going to state that the bible is fallible at this point.

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

self in john 17:5 doesn't mean a person. its a masculine pronoun because the culture was masculine dominated.


jesus also told you to call "no man" good because only god is good; then god the absolute is not a person, a human, a man.

the overall issue with your form of christianity is that it promotes idolatry. the bible, nor jesus, ever condoned idolatry for any created, begotten thing. idolatry is literally the abomination that causes desolation.

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No, it says God is not a man. That doesn't mean He is not a person. "Self" does indicate person. How could it not? Jesus was speaking to God the Father as distinct from Himself as the Son. And, Jesus, God the Son, did become a Man. The God/Man.

When you use a verse of Scripture you should give where it is found. Jesus asked in (Matt. 19:17), "...Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God...." Jesus wasn't saying God is not a Person. He says there is none good but God. And, He was saying, if you're going to call me 'good', know what you're saying. Which He did not deny.

You are wanting to make the Bible conform to your belief, and it will not.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

No, it says God is not a man. That doesn't mean He is not a person. "Self" does indicate person. How could it not? Jesus was speaking to God the Father as distinct from Himself as the Son. And, Jesus, God the Son, did become a Man. The God/Man.

When you use a verse of Scripture you should give where it is found. Jesus asked in (Matt. 19:17), "...Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God...." Jesus wasn't saying God is not a Person. He says there is none good but God. And, He was saying, if you're going to call me 'good', know what you're saying. Which He did not deny.

You are wanting to make the Bible conform to your belief, and it will not.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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a person is a human being. a person is created in the earth experience by developing a personality.

you're bible verse makes a reference to before the earth experience.

i gave you a bible verse that emphatically states that god is not a person = man = human being.

god is a being but not a person.

click on the sentence in bold and dark blue below to see strong's H1961

the first name of god is literally a verb, to be.


Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

click on the sentence in bold and dark blue below to see strong's H376

man in this context means a humankind, a person

human being, person (in contrast to God)

Fool said:

a person is a human being. a person is created in the earth experience by developing a personality.

you're bible verse makes a reference to before the earth experience.

i gave you a bible verse that emphatically states that god is not a person = man = human being.

god is a being but not a person.

click on the sentence in bold and dark blue below to see strong's H1961

the first name of god is literally a verb, to be.


Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

click on the sentence in bold and dark blue below to see strong's H376

man in this context means a humankind, a person

human being, person (in contrast to God)

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A human being is a person. Doesn't mean person is limited to human beings.

No it doesn't. The Bible verse refers to the time before the Son became man.

No, you gave me a verse that says God is not a man. Doesn't mean God is not a person.

There are many names of God with various meanings.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

A human being is a person. Doesn't mean person is limited to human beings.

No it doesn't. The Bible verse refers to the time before the Son became man.

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you're confused. a human is definitely a being but a being is not necessarily a human, person, man, or homo erectus.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

No, you gave me a verse that says God is not a man. Doesn't mean God is not a person.

There are many names of God with various meanings.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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actually i did give you a verse that shows god is not a person = man.


it's the english word 'man' used in numbers 23:19; which is the hebrew word 'iysh


even in english a synonym for person is man, or human.

God is neither a person, or a man, or a human.

jesus at best was a demi-god. a person born to a woman and fathered by a spirit/god.


why are you trying your best to redefine the bible, let alone the english and hebrew languages?

Fool said:

you're confused. a human is definitely a being but a being is not necessarily a human, person, man, or homo erectus.

actually i did give you a verse that shows god is not a person = man.


it's the english word 'man' used in numbers 23:19; which is the hebrew word 'iysh


even in english a synonym for person is man, or human.

God is neither a person, or a man, or a human.

jesus at best was a demi-god. a person born to a woman and fathered by a spirit/god.


why are you trying your best to redefine the bible, let alone the english and hebrew languages?

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No, I'm not. Person is not limited to human beings. Your verse, (Num. 23:19) says "God is not man". It doesn't address in any way that He is not Person. I already showed you that The Son, Jesus, addressed Him as 'self'. (John 17:5) "glorify thou me with thine own self '. Moses addressed Him as the same. (Ex. 32:13) "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swearest by thin own self, and saidst unto them...."

God the Father is a Person, but Spirit. God the Son is a Person, both Spirit and Man.

Believe as you like. Quit trying to conform the Bible into your belief.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

No, I'm not. Person is not limited to human beings. Your verse, (Num. 23:19) says "God is not man". It doesn't address in any way that He is not Person.

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yes it does. i showed you in the definition that person, a man is in contrast to god.


why are you ignoring that it emphatically states a person is in contrast to god?


here is the link again. under definition 1 and subsection C for the word man used in numbers 23:19 and the hebrew word 'iysh


human being, person (in contrast to God)


strong's H120 which is usually translated as man can literally be translated as person

Num 5:6

Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men H120 commit, to do a trespass against the LORD, and that person be guilty;

Job 32:21

Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. H120

Pro 6:12

A naughty person, H120 a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.

Pro 28:17

A man H120 that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay him.

Eze 44:25

And they shall come at no dead person H120 to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

God the Father is a Person, but Spirit.

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Jesus never says god is a person. that is you projecting your belief into what isn't there. self is not necessarily a person. it is a being but not a person. a spirit can have a sense of self and not be a person/human being. adam was the first person created by god.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

God the Son is a Person, both Spirit and Man.

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all mankind is the son of god. why were you instructed to pray "Our Father"? or why did malachi say as such in malachi 2:10?

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

or why again did jesus speak of "your" father?

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Believe as you like. Quit trying to conform the Bible into your belief.

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i'm not a believer.

actually you're the believer creating what the bible calls god in the image of a person. you practice a form of idolatry called anthropolatry.


numbers 23:19 can also be translated as god is not a person.


or can be translated this way from the hebrew tanakh

לֹ֣א אִ֥ישׁ אֵל֙ וִֽיכַזֵּ֔ב וּבֶן־אָדָ֖ם וְיִתְנֶחָ֑ם הַה֤וּא אָמַר֙ וְלֹ֣א יַעֲשֶׂ֔ה וְדִבֶּ֖ר וְלֹ֥א יְקִימֶֽנָּה׃
God is not man to be capricious, Or mortal to change His mind. Would He speak and not act, Promise and not fulfill?

or another form of transliteration

יטלֹ֣א אִ֥ישׁ אֵל֙ וִֽיכַזֵּ֔ב וּבֶן־אָדָ֖ם וְיִתְנֶחָ֑ם הַה֤וּא אָמַר֙ וְלֹ֣א יַֽעֲשֶׂ֔ה וְדִבֶּ֖ר וְלֹ֥א יְקִימֶֽנָּה:
God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I already showed you that The Son, Jesus, addressed Him as 'self'. (John 17:5) "glorify thou me with thine own self '. Moses addressed Him as the same. (Ex. 32:13) "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swearest by thin own self, and saidst unto them...."

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self doesn't necessarily mean a person even though its referencing a being in john 17:5. adam was the first person. before adam, before the world was created there was still being but no persons.