How to protect religious freedom and conscience rights

ZooGirl02 · Nov 11, 2019

Hey everyone. I am not sure if this is the right forum for this question so if I am putting it in the wrong forum, I apologize.

Anyway, lately, there have been some problems in the United States with laws against discrimination and religious freedom or conscience rights. Basically, these laws say that you cannot discriminate against someone because of sexual orientation or gender identity among other things. However, these laws are causing the religious freedom and conscience rights of Christians and others to be violated by forcing such people to provide services for same-sex weddings. If they don't comply and provide the services, they are found in violation of the law.

My question is this. Isn't there some sort of compromise where religious freedom and conscience rights can be protected while minimizing the amount of discrimination that would take place against minorities or is it just simply a fact that religious freedom will have to be sacrificed in order for these laws to take effect? Why can't Christians and those with sincere moral or religious convictions against same-sex marriage be exempted from these laws? After all, it's not like your average gay couple is going to have a hard time finding a baker to bake their wedding cake for them if one baker on the corner refuses to bake the cake for their wedding. There are plenty of places they can go to.

ADigitalArtist · Nov 11, 2019

Unless there isn't another place to go, as is often the case in rural America. Anti-discrimination laws prevent tribalistic pockets from forming to ostracize minority groups. Religion also has protection, too. I cannot choose to deny Christians the same business I provide everyone else.

Brickjectivity · Nov 11, 2019

My opinion is that the fine details of justice are an ever moving target. You always overshoot in one directions or the other, so you have to keep correcting over time. Justice is like a car in a lane on a highway. It cannot remain in the lane without a driver. Someone has to decide when one rule and another rule seem to have tension between them.

dybmh · Nov 11, 2019

I think it's important to point out; that the US laws that you are speaking about involve fair business practices. And so, IMHO, understanding the rationale behind anti-discrimination laws is easiest approached from a business owner's perspective.

Owning a business in America does not occur in a vacuum. That business is protected by Police, Fire, and emergency response. The business benefits from streets, roads, bridges, etc... all these things are paid for from the collective of American citizens. And that collective includes a lot of Gay people.

In order to make it fair for a business to discriminate against anyone of any group... that same business would need to systematically return ( or decline ) all the dollars received from that specific group that was intended for support of Police, Fire, Roads, Bridges, and Utilities. Or that same business would have to operate Off-the-grid. It's not as simple as saying, Gay folk should shop else where because; their tax dollars are supporting a business which bans them from shopping there.

Is that at all fair? No. Put simply:

If Gay folk are paying taxes, and a business is benefiting from those taxes; then, it's not fair for that business to discriminate against Gay people.

I hope this helps little,

Terry Sampson · Nov 11, 2019

Technically, your post is in an acceptable forum; however, ... because the Christian rights that you think are being violated are specifically rights that are either protected or not protected in the U.S., your OP might be more appropriate in the North American Politics subforum.

Shadow Wolf · Nov 11, 2019

Oh well. Religion should never be used as an excuse to deny someone and treat them as less than a fully entitled citizen. Just as we told religion to bugger off when it came to slavery, discrimination, and interracial marriages, religion can go bugger off on this subject as well. No one has the "right" to open a business. People do have a right to equal protection and liberties under the law.

Terry Sampson · Nov 11, 2019

Wherever this thread eventually does land, your (@ZooGirl02) OP raises issues governed by U.S. law and court cases. Consequently, one of the first sources of information that you ought to be consulting is the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) website in general and specifically the Religious Freedom section of that website, linked below.

Religious Freedom

And, because you specifically mention gays, you would do well to familiarize yourself with the rights of the LGBTQ folk, briefly discussed at:

LGBTQ Rights

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 11, 2019

The issue you're describing isn't about freedom of religion; it's about freedom of commerce.

A person who wants nothing to do with same-sex weddings could choose any number of career paths or business opportunities where they would never have to do anything ever for a same-sex wedding.

So the bigot's freedom is maintained: they're free to take whatever steps are necessary to avoid same-sex weddings. No legal double standard is needed to protect the bigot's freedom of religion and conscience.

The only way that the bigot could ever be called on to have a role in a same-sex wedding is if they decide they want to be in a line of work that deals with weddings... and even then, they still have the option to quit. Their freedom of religion is maintained.

... so the conflict isn't between their conscience and same-sex marriage. The conflict is between their desire for a particular career - or maybe desire for a particular income level - and same-sex marriage. It's about base self-interest, not conscience.

Terry Sampson · Nov 11, 2019

Terry Sampson · Nov 11, 2019

Note, in my last post, that although there is no federal law that bans discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity in public accommodations, state and local laws where you live may ban that kind of discrimination. Where do you live?

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 11, 2019

@ZooGirl02 -

I once had what was - for me, at least - a major issue of conscience at work. A company I worked for was bought by a larger firm that had divisions doing things I strongly disagreed with. What they were doing was all legal, but I felt that I couldn't be a part of a company that did them. Do you know what I did?

I quit. I found another job and I quit.

I didn't try to force the company to stop doing things I disagreed with; I just acted on my freedom of conscience by leaving, and the cost of me acting on my freedom of conscience was borne by me alone.

If your religious dogma is important to you, then don't expect others who don't share your views to bear the cost for you to adhere to your religion.

I fully support your right not to do things that violate your conscience, but as long as you have the freedom to quit, your right is upheld.

Your religious rights do not include some right for you to have your dream job, custom tailored to the peculiarities of your religion.

Your religious rights do not include some right to the same spectrum of job or business opportunities as someone who hasn't chosen to religiously limit themselves.

If, because of your religion, no employment is open to you but some minimum wage job that you hate, so be it. Your freedom is still maintained. If you truly value your religion, the sacrifice will be worth it.

If someone decides they can't work on Sundays, this will limit their opportunities. If someone decides they can't touch people of the opposite sex, this will limit their opportunities. If someone decides they can't be involved in same-sex or interracial weddings, this will limit their opportunities.

... but these voluntary limitations in opportunity aren't limitations on freedom.

Nakosis · Nov 11, 2019

Religion shouldn't be used as an excuse for prejudicial treatment of people. You are free to practice your religion except what is not allowed by civil law.

sun rise · Nov 12, 2019

Let's say Muslim cab drivers refused to carry people because they have alcohol on them or the women are not dressed according to Muslim standards. Is this OK?

The Civil War was about how the South found justification for slavery in the Bible and insisted it was their God-given right to own slaves.

So clearly there are limits to a multi-cultural society's tolerance for religious ideas that go against the mainstream.

SomeRandom · Nov 12, 2019

My question is would Jesus be going around not serving wedding cakes to people?

This screams petty nonsense to me. If you don’t like treating people equally or how you would like to be treated, maybe don’t serve the public.

ImmortalFlame · Nov 12, 2019

Why do you think "religious freedom" extends to the right to use your business to discriminate against people?

Should "political freedom" extend to liberals not allowing conservatives to shop in their shops? Or white people to stop black people coming into their restaurants?

What you are arguing for is not "religious freedom". You're asking for the religious to have additional rights and freedoms not allowed to other people, and to give religious groups special permission not to comply with anti-discrimination law. That's not freedom, that's asking for the right to oppress.

No, you don't have the right to that. And nor should you, and it's ridiculously entitled for you to for ask it.

stvdv · Nov 12, 2019

This I remember from the Bible:
Jesus said "don't judge"
Jesus helped the sick (the lepers)
Jesus and Samaritan story

Judging gay people does not fit, or does it?

By the way, Christians do not only judge gay. They have this tendency to think "my way is the highway". This is arrogance and Jesus is all about humility; which is kind of the opposite of arrogance. Arrogance obviously blinds you, so I understand Christians don't get this.

I believe in Law of Karma (action + reaction)

I believe humans should not judge gay

stvdv · Nov 12, 2019

In my opinion:
Religious freedom is about practising your religion, being "connecting to your God"
Religious freedom is not about controlling the Religion or feelings of others, that would be even the exact opposite of what "freedom of religion stands for". Christians are so used to "my way = highway" that they do not see this Truth

Saying "gay is bad" is just plain discriminating someone's feelings (with which he hurts nobody actively). Talking about doing something bad, I feel discrimination is the only bad thing here

Anyway, what goes around comes around. You judge gay people who even don't "hurt" others. So if the Law hurts you, it's self inflicted, as I see it

stvdv · Nov 12, 2019

Jesus said "judge not".
Jesus did not say "except gay"

There were plenty gay at that time, so if Jesus spoke Truth He should have done so, being more precise, which He did not.

So IMO Jesus just meant "judge not"

Good-Ole-Rebel · Nov 12, 2019

Our country is becoming less and less Christian. Therefore the laws will naturally be less and less favorable toward the Christian or Christianity. There will be no compromise. I would say there are only two choices for the Christian whose business is a service. You will have to do as the law says. Or, decide to not do what the law says and accept the violation the law hands out.

Just wait till they make a church have to accept homosexual preachers or laity into the church.

Good-Ole-Rebel

PureX · Nov 12, 2019

The best way to protect religious freedom is to ignore religion all together, and focus on social behavior in terms of functionality, rather than morality. No one cares what you believe, so stop caring about what other people believe. All that matters is that we respect the laws that protect us from each other, and allow us to live as we choose to the degree that we are able without infringing other people's right to do the same.

When religion stops meddling in everyone else's business, everyone else will stop meddling in religious business. And we can all just live our own lives.

How to protect religious freedom and conscience rights

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

wind and rain touch not this brain

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

Well-Known Member

Certified People sTabber

Well-Known Member

1/10 Subway Stalinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

1/10 Subway Stalinist

Non-Binary Physicalist

The world is on fire

Still learning to be wise

Woke gremlin

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member