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If God exists, would God care how many people believe in Him?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
its really not on how we think or feel God declared the end from the beginning "Isaiah 46:10"

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Obviously the omniscient God knew the end in the beginning.
So what do you believe the end will be?
so what his word aka the bible says is what is going to happen and this is it "Isaiah 14:1:2"

14 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
I hope you realize that verses can mean different things to different people. So what do you think those verses mean? What do you believe is going to happen?
Gods chosen people will be the ruling class, those that are found worthy. The other nations will be the servings class "revelation 13:10"

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
I am not interpreting that verse to mean what you think it means. You must have other verses that support your beliefs.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No substantiation is in the eye of evidence, verification, proof
Evidence does not have an eye, people have eyes...
Not everyone is going to view the evidence the same way because no two people are identical in how they see things. For some people the evidence will indicate Messenger of God and for other people the evidence will NOT indicate that.

There is no proof, just evidence, and it is not verifiable:

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true. Verifiable comes from the verb verify, "authenticate" or "prove," from the Old French verifier, "find out the truth about." The Latin root is verus, or "true." Definitions of verifiable.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/verifiable
Why not? E=Mc2 and your existence is why not
Sorry, I am not understanding the connection between that and God being omnipotent. o_O
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Evidence does not have an eye, people have eyes...
Not everyone is going to view the evidence the same way because no two people are identical in how they see things. For some people the evidence will indicate Messenger of God and for other people the evidence will NOT indicate that.

There is no proof, just evidence, and it is not verifiable:

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true. Verifiable comes from the verb verify, "authenticate" or "prove," from the Old French verifier, "find out the truth about." The Latin root is verus, or "true." Definitions of verifiable.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/verifiable

Sorry, I am not understanding the connection between that and God being omnipotent. o_O

yes we know its not verifiable

Power is energy expended over time. For a god to be all powerful requires that said god is all energy and all time in the universe. You are made of energy and live in time therefore no being can have all energy and time therefore no being can be omnipotent.

It is a shame that bronze age writers never met Einstein because they would not make such an obvious error if they had
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Believers: Do you think God cares how many people believe in Him?
No, I think he knows how many people believe but I don't think he cares.
Do you think God cares if some people are atheists?
This is a different question. To this I say absolutely because atheism shows a certain kind of spiritual relationship with God. One of hatred on part of the human.
If God sent Messengers, would God care how many people believed in His Messengers?
*Chuckles* Yeah, because God has sent messengers throughout history to people (and I know Bahai's believe this too) and they have rejected it over and over and over again.
If God sent a Messenger, would God have a certain time frame on how soon afterward people believed in His Messenger?
:)... The time frame depends upon which one.
 

Truth.Speaks

New Member
actually the bible isn't interchangeable with each individual persons opinions, thoughts, and feelings 2 peter 1:20
the scripture supporting revelation 13:10 is isaiah 14:1-3 and joel 3:1-8
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Power is energy expended over time. For a god to be all powerful requires that said god is all energy and all time in the universe. You are made of energy and live in time therefore no being can have all energy and time therefore no being can be omnipotent.

It is a shame that bronze age writers never met Einstein because they would not make such an obvious error if they had
I think it all depends upon how we define omnipotent.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, I think he knows how many people believe but I don't think he cares.
I tend to agree that God does not care in the sense of needing people to believe in Him, but whether God wants more people or everyone to believe in Him is a different question. God probably wants everyone to believe in Him, but that does not mean God is ever going to force people to believe in Him. Free will is sacrosanct.
This is a different question. To this I say absolutely because atheism shows a certain kind of spiritual relationship with God. One of hatred on part of the human.
Why do you think that atheists hate God? How can they hate a God they do not believe exists?
How can they have a spiritual relationship with God if they reject God?
*Chuckles* Yeah, because God has sent messengers throughout history to people (and I know Bahai's believe this too) and they have rejected it over and over and over again.
That is certainly true, they were all rejected, at least in the beginning and for a long time afterwards.
But logically speaking, God would not send Messengers if God did not care if people believed in them, although I do not think God cares how many people believe in His Messengers.
:)... The time frame depends upon which one.
Can you elaborate? :)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God is not human so God does not have an ego.
Being made in the image of God means humans have the potential to reflect the attributes of God such as
Benevolent, Compassionate, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, and Patient.
A true Humanist!
God could offer clear evidence but He doesn't. Obviously He must have His reasons...
Of course, that's not the only possibility suggested by the evidence.
Nobody blames the ignorer. They just fail to get the messages.
Oh, I don't know ... see the first point above.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Of course, that's not the only possibility suggested by the evidence.
No, it's not the only possibility. There are three logical possibilities:

1. God exists and sends Messengers, or
2. God exists and does not communicate to humans, or
3. God does not exist

You get to pick. :)
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
I tend to agree that God does not care in the sense of needing people to believe in Him, but whether God wants more people or everyone to believe in Him is a different question. God probably wants everyone to believe in Him, but that does not mean God is ever going to force people to believe in Him. Free will is sacrosanct.
We're somewhat on the same page. Does God want the whole world? Yes. Does the whole word come to him? No.
Why do you think that atheists hate God? How can they hate a God they do not believe exists?
They hate the idea of God.
How can they have a spiritual relationship with God if they reject God?
If God is real, then the atheist ignores and hates him. That makes the atheist an enemy of him.
That is certainly true, they were all rejected, at least in the beginning and for a long time afterwards.
But logically speaking, God would not send Messengers if God did not care if people believed in them, although I do not think God cares how many people believe in His Messengers.
Isaiah 6:9 talks about a different kind of logic.
Can you elaborate? :)
I retract that statement actually.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
God cares that some people believe in Him but God does not need anyone to believe in Him.

Religion has to have some followers, yes, but followers are not what makes religion what it is.

God does not have an ego, so no, that is not going to happen.

Some of them do, if they were written by men. It was their view of who they thought God was at the time.

God does not have an ego, so no, that is not going to happen.

It could be that they know that religion is the way that God is revealed even if it is imperfect since men tamper with it and change it over time.

Only without religion there is no way anyone can know anything about God in order to add it up.


Your quote:God cares that some people believe in Him but God does not need anyone to believe in Him.
My Answer: Why does God care that some people believe in Him? What purpose does it serve??

Your quote:Religion has to have some followers, yes, but followers are not what makes religion what it is.
My Answer:Followers are what makes religion what it is. If you really knew God, this would be clear.

Your quote:God does not have an ego, so no, that is not going to happen.
My Answer: How can you agree in one breath that God does not care about having followers then in the next breath say God cares that some people believe in Him? You are not adding up. Further, if God cares that some people believe in Him, why not everyone? How is that choice made? Once again, it does not add up.

Your quote:Religions view of God is too vague as all religions are not the same.
My Answer: If religion's view is vague, religion does not clearly see Who God really is. Can Vague knowledge really be enough? Further, if religion's view is lacking, why does not religion attempt to Discover more? Could they assume they know it all?

Your quote:It could be that they know that religion is the way that God is revealed even if it is imperfect since men tamper with it and change it over time.
My Answer:They are making assumptions that God is revealing Himself through religion, when, in reality, nothing is further from the truth. If you study God's actions, God does reveal knowledge this way. Mankind does. Mankind also counts mere beliefs as truth or fact.

Your quote:Only without religion there is no way anyone can know anything about God in order to add it up.[/QUOTE]
My Answer: This assumption will keep you dependent of religion. You will also be limiting yourself to a box of Beliefs. Isn't God more than a Box of Beliefs?

In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen just like your and my actions can be seen. When one studies and understands the actions of another, one knows so much more about that person than the words and beliefs of others.

This is what I am seeing. I also see the limits you place on yourself trapped within your walls of beliefs. Yes, indeed, it's a lesson for us all for when one chooses a narrow view there is so much that one does not see. On the other hand, some find comfort within the walls of beliefs for True Discovery takes work.

Yes, this is what I am seeing and it's clear.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We're somewhat on the same page. Does God want the whole world? Yes. Does the whole word come to him? No.
I agree, God wants everyone, but everyone does not want God, for various reasons.

But I believe that in the future everyone will believe in God, because that is in the Bible and it is also in the Baha’i Writings:

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154


This is probably a long way off though.
They hate the idea of God.
Do you think that ALL atheists hate the idea of God? I have been posting to atheists on forums for about six years and what they tell me is that they do not believe in God because there is no evidence that God exists. It is true that a few atheists hate the idea of the God they see depicted in the Bible, but that is not the primary reason they do not believe in God.
If God is real, then the atheist ignores and hates him. That makes the atheist an enemy of him.
Hmmmmm…. I understand your perspective, but there are many reasons why atheists do not believe in God, as many reasons as there are atheists. I do not think most atheists hate God, but they do ignore God, although that is because they do not believe God exists. From a believer’s perspective that seems strange because it is obvious to us that God exists but from an atheist perspective it is anything but obvious.

Of course, the reason it is not obvious is because they reject the Messengers of God and the religions that were established in their names, so that is the heart of the issue. Why they reject the Messengers varies among atheists but most say it is because it cannot be *proven* that they actually got messages from God. That is true, but there is a lot of evidence that indicates they were Messengers of God, but atheists reject that evidence and say it is not evidence, so there is nowhere to go with that.
Isaiah 6:9 talks about a different kind of logic.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

True, and Jesus said something quite similar.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@ Bird123

Note: My new responses are in blue.

My quote: God cares that some people believe in Him but God does not need anyone to believe in Him.
Your Answer: Why does God care that some people believe in Him? What purpose does it serve??

What I meant is that God cares if some people believe that He exists. That does not serve any purpose for God, but it serves a purpose for those people who believe God exists.

My quote: Religion has to have some followers, yes, but followers are not what makes religion what it is.
Your Answer: Followers are what makes religion what it is. If you really knew God, this would be clear.

Nobody can know God without going through a religion because that is how God makes Himself known. God also makes Himself known through His Creation, but since Creation can be interpreted in many ways, that is not a reliable way of knowing about God.

My quote: God does not have an ego, so no, that is not going to happen.
Your Answer: How can you agree in one breath that God does not care about having followers then in the next breath say God cares that some people believe in Him? You are not adding up.

God cares not for Himself but rather for the people who believe in Him (see above).

Your Answer: Further, if God cares that some people believe in Him, why not everyone? How is that choice made? Once again, it does not add up.

God knows that everyone is not going to believe in Him, at least not right now, so God cares that at least some people believe in Him rather than nobody. Although God would prefer it if everyone believed in Him that has to be a freely made choice, since God never forces people to believe in Him.

My quote: Religions view of God is too vague as all religions are not the same.
Your Answer: If religion's view is vague, religion does not clearly see Who God really is. Can Vague knowledge really be enough? Further, if religion's view is lacking, why does not religion attempt to Discover more? Could they assume they know it all?

Previously you said: Maybe instead of accepting blindly, one should question religion's view of God in order to Discover what does not add up, like the believer question.

I did not mean that religion's view is vague; I meant that it is too vague to say “religions view of God” because all religions have different views of God.

Religion’s view of God is not vague. Religion is the closest approximation we can have to knowing who God is.

Religion does not know anything; we know about God through religion. Religion cannot Discover anything. Religion is the Revelation vouchsafed unto humanity by God through the Messengers (Prophets) God sends.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81


Nobody knows everything except God who is All-Knowing. God reveals what humans need to know and are able to understand incrementally throughout the ages. Humans will never know everything but we will know more in every new age, since every new Messenger reveals more Truth.

My quote: It could be that they know that religion is the way that God is revealed even if it is imperfect since men tamper with it and change it over time.
Your Answer: They are making assumptions that God is revealing Himself through religion, when, in reality, nothing is further from the truth. If you study God's actions, God does reveal knowledge this way. Mankind does. Mankind also counts mere beliefs as truth or fact.

Religions are not revealed by mankind, they are revealed by Messengers of God who are an order of Creation above any ordinary human. They reveal Truth and believers believe it if they are smart, because the Messengers know more than any ordinary human could ever know since they have innate knowledge as well as direct Revelation from God.

My quote: Only without religion there is no way anyone can know anything about God in order to add it up.
Your Answer: This assumption will keep you dependent of religion. You will also be limiting yourself to a box of Beliefs. Isn't God more than a Box of Beliefs?

Religion is not a Box of Beliefs. It is the Truth from God vouchsafed by God to humanity. God is more than what we can know from the Messengers but we cannot know anything about God any other way.

Your quote: In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen just like your and my actions can be seen.

The problem with that is a logical one: You cannot ever know what actions are attributable to God and what actions are attributable to human free will choices.

Your quote: When one studies and understands the actions of another, one knows so much more about that person than the words and beliefs of others.

That is true but we cannot always know another person by their actions since actions can be misleading because they can be faked.

Your quote: This is what I am seeing. I also see the limits you place on yourself trapped within your walls of beliefs. Yes, indeed, it's a lesson for us all for when one chooses a narrow view there is so much that one does not see. On the other hand, some find comfort within the walls of beliefs for True Discovery takes work.

What you think you are seeing is not what is going on with me. I am not trapped at all, I am a free spirit. Religion does not trap anyone; it instructs us and gives us choices. There is nothing narrow about what my religion teaches.

Religion does not prevent True Discovery from taking place, it guides us on the path to Discovery.

Your quote: Yes, this is what I am seeing and it's clear.

What I see is that what you see is *colored* by your own bias against religion. As such, there is no way you can see clearly. Nobody can ever see clearly when they have a strong bias.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
This post is for both believers and atheists:
  • Believers: Do you think God cares how many people believe in Him?
  • Atheists: If God existed, do you think God would care how many people believe in Him?
Believers and atheists:
  • Do you think God cares if some people are atheists?
  • If God sent Messengers, would God care how many people believed in His Messengers?
  • If God sent a Messenger, would God have a certain time frame on how soon afterward people believed in His Messenger?
a parable gives notation....
He will forsake all others to seek the one that is lost

how long will that take?
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
This post is for both believers and atheists:
  • Believers: Do you think God cares how many people believe in Him?
  • Atheists: If God existed, do you think God would care how many people believe in Him?
Believers and atheists:
  • Do you think God cares if some people are atheists?
  • If God sent Messengers, would God care how many people believed in His Messengers?
  • If God sent a Messenger, would God have a certain time frame on how soon afterward people believed in His Messenger?
I believe that God is our literal Father in Heaven.

He loves us and wants us to love Him.

He wants us to follow Him so that we can eventually return to live with Him again.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe that God is out literal Father in Heaven.

He loves us and wants us to love Him.

He wants us to follow Him so that we can eventually return to live with Him again.
I do not believe that God is our literal Father because that would men that God was a man and I do not believe God is a man that has biological children. I believe that God is the Father of all mankind but only in a figurative sense.

I believe that God loves us and wants us to love Him and I believe that God want us to follow Him so we can return to Him.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, it's not the only possibility. There are three logical possibilities:

1. God exists and sends Messengers, or
2. God exists and does not communicate to humans, or
3. God does not exist

You get to pick. :)
Quite right!

Still, the notion of a humanist god has its attractions.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
I do not believe that God is our literal Father because that would men that God was a man and I do not believe God is a man that has biological children. I believe that God is the Father of all mankind but only in a figurative sense.

I believe that God loves us and wants us to love Him and I believe that God want us to follow Him so we can return to Him.
I believe that He is the literal Father of our spirits and as spirits we lived with Him before we came to be tested in this mortal world.
 
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