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Divorce/re-marriage/annulment

K

Kevin Armstrong

Member
After a very long time away from faith ( over 50 years ) I was looking to become catholic. I was baptised and confirmed as an Anglican but feel that so much in that church has fundamentally changed.
Anyway, I watched some Masses via live streams, went to some at my local church and the cathedral in Liverpool and sought to join an RCIA class there. All seemed well until the problem was unearthed with my divorce and subsequent remarriage. The outset was that I'd need to go through the annulment process but the chances of success were set as slim. Along the way I received info that some priests accepted people in my circumstances, believing that what happened prior to seeking conversion was not relevant to my future life in the new faith... a clean slate approach! Alas, no such priests exist near to me. So, am I never going to fulfil my desire to enter the catholic faith in full communion, or do I have to accept that I can, as now, attend Mass but not partake of the communion? A bit like marrying someone but not enjoying a full relationship if you get my drift!
You'll gather that I live in the north-west of England so, as many on here are from other countries, their experiences may not coincide with process in England.
 
Steven Merten

Steven Merten

Active Member
Kevin Armstrong said:
After a very long time away from faith ( over 50 years ) I was looking to become catholic. I was baptised and confirmed as an Anglican but feel that so much in that church has fundamentally changed.
Anyway, I watched some Masses via live streams, went to some at my local church and the cathedral in Liverpool and sought to join an RCIA class there. All seemed well until the problem was unearthed with my divorce and subsequent remarriage. The outset was that I'd need to go through the annulment process but the chances of success were set as slim. Along the way I received info that some priests accepted people in my circumstances, believing that what happened prior to seeking conversion was not relevant to my future life in the new faith... a clean slate approach! Alas, no such priests exist near to me. So, am I never going to fulfil my desire to enter the catholic faith in full communion, or do I have to accept that I can, as now, attend Mass but not partake of the communion? A bit like marrying someone but not enjoying a full relationship if you get my drift!
You'll gather that I live in the north-west of England so, as many on here are from other countries, their experiences may not coincide with process in England.
Click to expand...

Hello Kevin and welcome to the Catholic forum,
What do you think Jesus thinks?

Mark 10:2
Then some Pharisees came up and as a test began to ask him whether it was permissible for a husband to divorce his wife. In reply he said, "What command did Moses give you? They answered, "Moses permitted divorce and the writing of a decree of divorce." But Jesus told them: "He wrote that commandment for you because of your stubbornness. At the beginning of creation God made them male and female; for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and the two shall become as one. They are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore let no man separate what God has joined." Back in the house again, the disciples began to question him about this. He told them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and the woman who divorces her husband and marries another commits adultery."

Mark 10:17
"Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life? Jesus answered, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: 'You shall not kill; You shall not commit adultery;'"​

Luke 16:17
"The law and the prophets were in force until John. From his time on, the good news of God's kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in. It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass. Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. The man who marries a woman divorced from her husband likewise commits adultery."

Matthew 19:3 The Question of Divorce.
Some Pharisees came up to him and said, to test him, "May a man divorce his wife for any reason whatever?" He replied, "Have you not read that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female and declared, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall become as one'? Thus they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore, let no man separate what God has joined." They said to him, "Then why did Moses command divorce and the promulgation of a divorce decree?" "Because of your stubbornness Moses let you divorce your wives," he replied; "but at the beginning it was not that way. I now say to you, whoever divorces his wife (lewd conduct is a separate case) and marries another commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."​
 
K

Kevin Armstrong

Member
Steven Merten said:
Hello Kevin and welcome to the Catholic forum,
What do you think Jesus thinks?

Mark 10:2
Then some Pharisees came up and as a test began to ask him whether it was permissible for a husband to divorce his wife. In reply he said, "What command did Moses give you? They answered, "Moses permitted divorce and the writing of a decree of divorce." But Jesus told them: "He wrote that commandment for you because of your stubbornness. At the beginning of creation God made them male and female; for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and the two shall become as one. They are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore let no man separate what God has joined." Back in the house again, the disciples began to question him about this. He told them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and the woman who divorces her husband and marries another commits adultery."

Mark 10:17
"Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life? Jesus answered, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: 'You shall not kill; You shall not commit adultery;'"​
Luke 16:17
"The law and the prophets were in force until John. From his time on, the good news of God's kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in. It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass. Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. The man who marries a woman divorced from her husband likewise commits adultery."

Matthew 19:3 The Question of Divorce.
Some Pharisees came up to him and said, to test him, "May a man divorce his wife for any reason whatever?" He replied, "Have you not read that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female and declared, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall become as one'? Thus they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore, let no man separate what God has joined." They said to him, "Then why did Moses command divorce and the promulgation of a divorce decree?" "Because of your stubbornness Moses let you divorce your wives," he replied; "but at the beginning it was not that way. I now say to you, whoever divorces his wife (lewd conduct is a separate case) and marries another commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."​
Click to expand...
 
K

Kevin Armstrong

Member
Hello Steve, Thanks for the very detailed reply. My response won't be so long!
I'm aware of the Church teaching that you quote and I cannot disagree with the stance in so far as it has been agreed as the way to approach these matters from an ecclesiastical point of view. However, I get a bit peaved that the Church sees fit to allow adjustments to other 2,000 year old teachings and yes, it gets many people upset and annoyed but none the less such changes are allowed and seen as "progress". I take for example the rather convoluted passages in the Catechism re creationism and evolution. Similarly, in the name of progress there is even room in the Church for married former Anglican priests.
I've not the time nor the desire any longer to try to find a way into this Church. I thought I had found a new home, I found the Mass beautiful and compelling and the choral Mass in particular scintillating. I admired the priests and their devotion to duty, the nuns who were always rocks within the church services too. Alas, it is not a home for me.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
 
Steven Merten

Steven Merten

Active Member
Kevin Armstrong said:
Hello Steve, Thanks for the very detailed reply. My response won't be so long!
I'm aware of the Church teaching that you quote and I cannot disagree with the stance in so far as it has been agreed as the way to approach these matters from an ecclesiastical point of view. However, I get a bit peaved that the Church sees fit to allow adjustments to other 2,000 year old teachings and yes, it gets many people upset and annoyed but none the less such changes are allowed and seen as "progress". I take for example the rather convoluted passages in the Catechism re creationism and evolution. Similarly, in the name of progress there is even room in the Church for married former Anglican priests.
I've not the time nor the desire any longer to try to find a way into this Church. I thought I had found a new home, I found the Mass beautiful and compelling and the choral Mass in particular scintillating. I admired the priests and their devotion to duty, the nuns who were always rocks within the church services too. Alas, it is not a home for me.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Click to expand...

John 15:22
"If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father."​
​
1 John 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments.
​
John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.​


Hello Kevin,
It is not the Church that you are rejecting. It is Jesus Whom you are rejecting. The Church is only standing behind Jesus, and Jesus’ Words, which you are rejecting.

Luke 10:8
Whatever town you enter and they welcome you, eat what is set before you, cure the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God is at hand for you.' Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, 'The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.' Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. And as for you, Capernaum, 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.'" Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."​
 
Mark Dohle

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
Kevin Armstrong said:
After a very long time away from faith ( over 50 years ) I was looking to become catholic. I was baptised and confirmed as an Anglican but feel that so much in that church has fundamentally changed.
Anyway, I watched some Masses via live streams, went to some at my local church and the cathedral in Liverpool and sought to join an RCIA class there. All seemed well until the problem was unearthed with my divorce and subsequent remarriage. The outset was that I'd need to go through the annulment process but the chances of success were set as slim. Along the way I received info that some priests accepted people in my circumstances, believing that what happened prior to seeking conversion was not relevant to my future life in the new faith... a clean slate approach! Alas, no such priests exist near to me. So, am I never going to fulfil my desire to enter the catholic faith in full communion, or do I have to accept that I can, as now, attend Mass but not partake of the communion? A bit like marrying someone but not enjoying a full relationship if you get my drift!
You'll gather that I live in the north-west of England so, as many on here are from other countries, their experiences may not coincide with process in England.
Click to expand...
Hello Kevin,

I did write a response to you, but I thought it better to post this instead, about the "Internal forum".

I feel for your situation, and will pray for you and your wife.



6 Questions (and Answers) on the “Internal Forum Solution”
 
P

pearl

Well-Known Member
VATICAN CITY — The Vatican is making clear Pope Francis supports letting divorced and civilly remarried Catholics receive Communion under certain conditions by publishing a set of new guidelines in the pope's own newspaper that go beyond even what he has said.

In another footnote, Francis argued abstaining from sex can endanger fidelity and the good of the children in the new union.

The Maltese bishops, led by a former Vatican heavyweight, Archbishop Charles Scicluna, went further saying it may actually be "humanly impossible" to live as brother and sister. Several bishops conferences have issued similar documents interpreting the question for their priests. Francis has already personally endorsed the Argentine bishops' version, which makes a similar opening. Significantly, more conservative interpretations that rule out the sacraments for these Catholics have been ignored by the pope and the Vatican.
Vatican newspaper expands guidelines on Pope Francis' view that remarried Catholics can receive Communion
 
K

Kevin Armstrong

Member
Mark Dohle said:
Hello Kevin,

I did write a response to you, but I thought it better to post this instead, about the "Internal forum".

I feel for your situation, and will pray for you and your wife.



6 Questions (and Answers) on the “Internal Forum Solution”
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply Mark and in particular, thanks very much for the prayers.

I can't say that I completely follow the reasoning involved in the "internal forum" but I'm inclined to think that if there was some way of helping me overcome my difficulties then Liverpool Cathedral would have helped me to do so. I had detailed correspondence with a deacon there who was in charge of the RCIA course and he told me that if, as seemed likely, after a Canon lawyer at the cathedral had a look at my case, it was deemed necessary to seek representation at a tribunal, then they would help me with that. Alas, that proved not to be the case. They seemed to quite quickly send me back to my own Archdiocese, having been happy to take me into theirs after going through various protocols. My own Archdiocese were going to get back to me in late October but nothing materialised. I sent a further message but to date, zilch!
I'm fed up with it all now and I'm resigned to just enjoying my own reading/research and will look perhaps to return to Anglicanism if that's where it all takes me. Maybe I'm being guided elsewhere for a reason!! Thanks again.
 
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