The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

PearlSeeker said:

I find the use of "essence" for God rather confusing...............
After all is it really important to know if Jesus is God or the first next to God or...?

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To me the ' essence ' of God is that God "IS" Love.
God has wisdom.
God has knowledge.
God has power.
God has justice.
But, God "IS" love - 1 John 4:16-18

Agree, important to know if Jesus is God or _____________
Since God had 'No beginning' according to Psalms 90:2 being from-and-to everlasting.
To me that makes God existing ' before ' the beginning of anything else.
Jesus, on the other hand, is in the beginning, and Not before the beginning as his God was before the beginning.
Thus, only God was ' before ' the beginning.
So, it is No wonder that Revelation 3:14 says about Jesus being the beginning of the creation by God.
Since everything else comes through pre-human Jesus that makes Jesus' God's only-begotten heavenly Son.
Jesus being first born of every creature as per Colossians 1:15.

URAVIP2ME said:

To me the ' essence ' of God is that God "IS" Love.
God has wisdom.
God has knowledge.
God has power.
God has justice.
But, God "IS" love - 1 John 4:16-18

Agree, important to know if Jesus is God or _____________
Since God had 'No beginning' according to Psalms 90:2 being from-and-to everlasting.
To me that makes God existing ' before ' the beginning of anything else.
Jesus, on the other hand, is in the beginning, and Not before the beginning as his God was before the beginning.
Thus, only God was ' before ' the beginning.
So, it is No wonder that Revelation 3:14 says about Jesus being the beginning of the creation by God.
Since everything else comes through pre-human Jesus that makes Jesus' God's only-begotten heavenly Son.
Jesus being first born of every creature as per Colossians 1:15.

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In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God.

That puts the Word at the very least on an equality with God. Indeed there is no distinction between the Father and the Word.

Just as you speak words with your breath; so God speaks by His own breath. (Psalm 33:6)

"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth."

That is the breath of God is what forms the Words of God. What that means is that Jesus is the breath of God. As Jesus Himself says "I am the Alpha and the Omega". In other words the first and last letter or all of the Word of God from beginning to end. Because all words are formed of letters.

The idea that the "Word of God" is just a title for a spokesman is a real stretch. First of all it's confusing. And secondly it's just ridiculous. For example when we read that the "Word was made flesh" that clearly implies a literal Word not some kind of spokesman.

Because the "Word" is the Word of Life (1 John 1:1) and the Word of creation. (John 1:3) If we really understood it; then we would understand that since God made all things by His Word; then by the Word becoming flesh and blood He is here to rewrite everything. To turn us again to the Father He must make us again align unto Himself(The Word of God). Because if we do not align to the Word of God then we are undoing our own creation. We are becoming unraveled as it were. This is hwy nothing can remain permanent that is contrary to the Word of God. But at some point it must burst out into unquenchable flames. (2 Peter 3:10)

So the idea that the "Word" is just a title and not literal just doesn't line up with various scriptures such as Heb. 1:3 where we see that He(Jesus) upholds all things by the "Word of His power". That doesn't sound like a spokesman to me! It sounds like the real deal. The true Word of God.

So Arianism runs into this big problem that they must make a sort of (lower case) man-god being that is subordinate to the Father; but still a god in every right and respect of the meaning of the word "god".

Which means they have two gods ...

URAVIP2ME said:

I find at Psalms 90:2 that God can Not die, He does Not die.
Because God is from-and-to 'everlasting' meaning God is: death proof.
Plus, I find in Scripture that the one who resurrected dead Jesus was his God.

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That's an argument for Jesus being God; not against it. If God cannot die but somehow must die ... then He needs a human body to die. Contrary to the idea of those who believe God would only send His Son to die and would not die Himself.

No, God would die Himself if He could and the only way was to make Himself a human body to inhabit.

Even Jesus says two things that give us a clue that it is God who must die.

1. Greater love has no one than this that they lay down their life for a friend. Now it is apparent to me that no one has greater love than God. So then why would Jesus say no one has greater love than the one who dies for his friend? You do the math.
2. Jesus also said that the "good shepherd" gives His life for the sheep. So who is a better shepherd than God Himself? As God is described as the Shepherd of Israel in various scriptures including in the famous 23rd Psalm. So if God is a Shepherd is He not good? Therefore God is not just all talk as some would suppose. But He put into action what He says. If God claims that a good shepherd dies for His sheep then God will not just say it; but do it also. That is one thing you can count on.

74x12 said:

In the book of John it's pretty obvious that the author is saying that Jesus is God.

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Yes, I completely agree.

74x12 said:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God.
That's an argument for Jesus being God; not against it. If God cannot die but somehow must die ... then He needs a human body to die. Contrary to the idea of those who believe God would only send His Son to die and would not die Himself.........

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Yes, ' in the beginning was the Word ' (Jesus)
I find at Psalms 90:2 that God is from everlasting. In other words, God had No beginning.
Thus, only God was ' before ' the beginning.
Pre-human Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before ' the beginning.
In the King James version at Acts 28:6 B the letter ' a ' is inserted, but the letter ' a ' is omitted at John 1:1
John himself informs us at John 1:18 that No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus. - 1 John 4:12
Yes, God can Not die being from-and-to everlasting.
Dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself.
Dead Jesus was resurrected by his God -> Acts 2:24; 3:15; 5:30; Colossians 2:12 Galatians 1; Romans 10:9
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12

spirtual-philosophy said:

Yes, I completely agree.

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I am curious as to why you say that you completely agree ____________
What do you find obvious about John 1:18 ____________
What do you find obvious about John 1:49 ____________
What do you find obvious about John 4:23-24__________
What do you find obvious about John 6:69 ____________
What do you find obvious about John 10:36 ___________
What do you find obvious about John 11:27 ___________
What do you find obvious about John 20:31 ___________

74x12 said:

In the book of John it's pretty obvious that the author is saying that Jesus is God.

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URAVIP2ME said:

I am curious as to why you say that you completely agree ____________
What do you find obvious about John 1:18

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John 1:18 -- No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son

Also, John 1:1 and John 1:14

URAVIP2ME said:

Yes, ' in the beginning was the Word ' (Jesus)
I find at Psalms 90:2 that God is from everlasting. In other words, God had No beginning.
Thus, only God was ' before ' the beginning.
Pre-human Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before ' the beginning.
In the King James version at Acts 28:6 B the letter ' a ' is inserted, but the letter ' a ' is omitted at John 1:1
John himself informs us at John 1:18 that No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus. - 1 John 4:12
Yes, God can Not die being from-and-to everlasting.
Dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself.
Dead Jesus was resurrected by his God -> Acts 2:24; 3:15; 5:30; Colossians 2:12 Galatians 1; Romans 10:9
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12

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Yes only God was before the beginning but the Word is God. Sure from context it is apparent that "a" should be inserted in Acts 28:6; but the same is not true of John 1:1. There is no contextual reason to insert an "a". The only reason it's inserted in Acts 28:6 is because these people were clearly polytheistic. Whereas if it were Jews talking who are known monotheists; then "a god" would not make sense for them to say. So let's keep in mind that John was born a Jew and raised Jewish.

John seems to be unfolding a pretty complex mystery or interpretation of Genesis chapter 1:1-3. The clue is the borrowed wording "In the beginning ..." (see Genesis 1:1...)

What this means is that because it is so complex; it seems apparent that John needed to clarify that even though he is talking about "the Word" that was (somehow) with God. Yet he isn't talking about two gods. On the contrary he wants everyone to be certain that the Word was also God. So that no one thinks there is a separate "god" called the Word.


As for the resurrection. You say that Jesus did not resurrect himself and as proof you provide scriptures which do indeed prove that God raised Jesus from the dead. However, what you're not considering is that since I already believe Jesus is God; therefore both are true. God raised Jesus and Jesus raised Himself.

John 10:18 is the proof because Jesus claims that the Father gave command that He(Jesus) has power to take back His life from death. This means that the man Jesus was given power by God to raise Himself. Which goes hand in hand with Jesus' claim that "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

This means that the man Jesus has been given all power in heaven and earth. Not just part of it. He has all power that there is in heaven and earth. He is in fact therefore "Almighty".

Does that alone prove He is God? No, because He says it is given to Him. But I believe it strongly implies He is God manifest; because God entrusts Him with every bit of His creation without limit.

@URAVIP2ME said : “Since God had 'No beginning' according to Psalms 90:2 being from-and-to everlasting.” (post #641)
Based on this claim that God had “no beginning” he then theorizes “To me that makes God existing ' before ' the beginning of anything else.” (post #641).

@74x12 seems to agree, saying : “…Yes only God was before the beginning….” (post #647)



Why would the condition of an everlasting God mean that other things did not also exist?
For example, What would God have made material worlds from if not from matter that also existed and with which he created material things?




Clear
ειφιδρσεειω

moorea944 said:

First of all, you already "think" that the HS is a person. The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God can be..... what? Who can also help people while God is working through them. Angels.

Second, you have to remember that the trinity is not scriptural. It was added into some doctrines in about 325 AD. There is no such thing as a "member of the Trinity".

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Why would I think otherwise?

I believe Jesus did not say He was sending an angel and He did state that the HS would be Him and the Father.

I believe I have no desire to remember something that isn't true.

I don't believe there is any evidence to support that view.

URAVIP2ME said:

I find at Psalms 90:2 that God can Not die, He does Not die.
Because God is from-and-to 'everlasting' meaning God is: death proof.
Plus, I find in Scripture that the one who resurrected dead Jesus was his God.

Click to expand...

I believe that is true and He certainly didn't in the sense of His Spirit being extinguished but the body He was in died.

So what is you point? I believe Jesus is still God in the flesh when He is resurrected.

spirtual-philosophy said:

John 1:18 -- No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son

Note that the only begotten Son (=Jesus per John 1:49) is God.​

Also, John 1:1 and John 1:14

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I find at John 1:49 that Nathanael believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
No where does Nathanael say Jesus is God.
John 1:51 angels of God descending (Not on God ) but descending on the Son of man ( aka Jesus )
Yes, Jesus is only begotten of the Father as per John 1:14
Note: according to Psalms 90:2 God is Not begotten, but from everlasting.
Thus, only God was "BEFORE" the beginning, whereas Jesus was :"IN" the beginning but Not "BEFORE" the beginning.
I find Jesus answers at John 7:16 that what Jesus' teaches is Not his teaching, but from the one that sent Jesus.
In other words, what Jesus' Father says is what Jesus speaks as per John 12:50.
At John 5:19 Jesus informs us that Jesus (Son) can do nothing of himself, but what he sees his Father doing.
Jesus instructs us as to who we should worship at John 4:23-24.

74x12 said:

Yes only God was before the beginning but the Word is God. Sure from context it is apparent that "a" should be inserted in Acts 28:6; but the same is not true of John 1:1. There is no contextual reason to insert an "a". The only reason it's inserted in Acts 28:6 is because these people were clearly polytheistic. Whereas if it were Jews talking who are known monotheists; then "a god" would not make sense for them to say. So let's keep in mind that John was born a Jew and raised Jewish.
John seems to be unfolding a pretty complex mystery or interpretation of Genesis chapter 1:1-3. The clue is the borrowed wording "In the beginning ..." (see Genesis 1:1...)
What this means is that because it is so complex; it seems apparent that John needed to clarify that even though he is talking about "the Word" that was (somehow) with God. Yet he isn't talking about two gods. On the contrary he wants everyone to be certain that the Word was also God. So that no one thinks there is a separate "god" called the Word.
As for the resurrection. You say that Jesus did not resurrect himself and as proof you provide scriptures which do indeed prove that God raised Jesus from the dead. However, what you're not considering is that since I already believe Jesus is God; therefore both are true. God raised Jesus and Jesus raised Himself.
John 10:18 is the proof because Jesus claims that the Father gave command that He(Jesus) has power to take back His life from death. This means that the man Jesus was given power by God to raise Himself. Which goes hand in hand with Jesus' claim that "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18
This means that the man Jesus has been given all power in heaven and earth. Not just part of it. He has all power that there is in heaven and earth. He is in fact therefore "Almighty".
Does that alone prove He is God? No, because He says it is given to Him. But I believe it strongly implies He is God manifest; because God entrusts Him with every bit of His creation without limit.

Click to expand...

I find at John 1:1 that the Word (pre-human Jesus ) was ''WITH" God.....
A person is Not 'with' himself but 'with' another, thus the Word was God as in the Word was divine.
This is why John could say at Revelation 19:13 Jesus is the Word of God. (God's spokesman)
John 1:2 lets us know pre-human Jesus was "WITH" God
Jesus was "IN" the beginning "WITH" God, never "WITH" God "BEFORE" the beginning.-Psalms 90:2
According to gospel writer Luke Jesus did NOT resurrect himself :
Acts of the Apostles 2:24
Acts of the Apostles 2:34
Acts of the Apostles 3:15
Acts of the Apostles 5:30

Also, Romans 10:9
Colossians 2:12
Galatians 1:1
Ephesians 1:20 God set Jesus at his own right hand.
Close to his God is where Jesus is located as per Revelation 3:21.
One person does Not occupy two (2) thrones.
I find resurrected-to-heaven Jesus does Not appear in front of himself according to Hebrews 9:24.
Plus, the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12
Any thoughts about Psalms 89:26-27__________________ ( No David is Not God's first born )

Clear said:

@URAVIP2ME said : “Since God had 'No beginning' according to Psalms 90:2 being from-and-to everlasting.” (post #641)
Based on this claim that God had “no beginning” he then theorizes “To me that makes God existing ' before ' the beginning of anything else.” (post #641).
@74x12 seems to agree, saying : “…Yes only God was before the beginning….” (post #647)
Why would the condition of an everlasting God mean that other things did not also exist?
For example, What would God have made material worlds from if not from matter that also existed and with which he created material things
Clear
ειφιδρσεειω

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I find as per Revelation 4:11 that God is also our Creator .
Nothing created God. God was ' before ' any creation - Psalms 90:2
Scripture does Not teach that God used material matter to create the visible world.
Rather, God used and supplied His great "Power and Strength" ( His abundant dynamic energy ) to create the material realm.
- Isaiah 40:26; Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 27:5; Jeremiah 32:17; Psalms 104:30

1) THE THEORY THAT NOTHING BUT GOD EXISTED BEFORE GOD CREATED THIS EARTH / PLANETS AND STARS
@URAVIP2ME interpreted Psalms 90:2 as meaning “…God existed ' before ' the beginning of anything else.” (post #641). @74x12 agreed saying : “…Yes only God was before the beginning….” (post #647)

Clear asked : Why would the condition of an everlasting God mean that other things did not also exist?
For example, What would God have made material worlds from if not from matter that also existed and with which he created material things (post #648)

URAVIP2ME said : “Nothing created God. God was ' before ' any creation - Psalms 90:2”

The assumption that “nothing created God” does not mean there was nothing before God started this creation.. Why do you assume that there was “nothing” before the creation of the earth and planets? What would God have made material things with, if not with matter?


2) THE ANCIENT INTERPRETATION OF CREATION OUT OF "MATTER" VERSUS THE INTERPRETATION OF CREATION FROM "ENERGY".
URAVIP2ME offers us his interpretation of scripture, saying : “Scripture does Not teach that God used material matter to create the visible world.”

If your personal interpretation of scripture has God using something other than material to create material things, what does your interpretation have God using to create material things? Can you be specific? For example, you say “God used …His great "Power and Strength" ( His abundant dynamic energy ) to create the material realm.”

Are you referring to matter existing in a different form, such as Einsteins theory that E=mc2 in referring to matter (mass) in a different form (energy)?

For example the ancient Judeo-Christian interpretation that God used matter in it’s base and chaotic form to create organized material things (like planets) seems more rational and logical than your interpretation. What advantage does your theory have over the earlier Judeo-Christian interpretation of scripture where they interpreted the scriptures to mean God created material things out of matter?


3) THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT SUPPORT THE THEORY THAT NOTHING BUT GOD EXISTED BEFORE GOD CREATED THE OBJECTS IN BIBLICAL GENESIS

The four scriptures you referenced do not support your theory.

Isaiah 40:26 simply says God “created these things”, it does not tell us there was “nothing but God” before creation nor does it say things were created out of pure energy.

You quoted Jeremiah 10:12 But this simply describes God “made the earth “by his power”. It does not tell us the earth is created OF power, simply that God used his ability and power to make the earth. A builder can claim that he builds a house “by his own power and wisdom” but no one assumes it is made of cosmic energy, but rather it is assumed the builder used wood and bricks and mortar. Neither does this verse say there was “nothing but God” before creation.

You quoted Jeremiah 32:17 but this simply tells us the same thing (God created…) Like the other verses, it does not support your claim that there was “nothing but God’ before creation.

Finally, you quoted Psalms 104:30, but again, this verse simply tells us things “are created” but does not support your claim that there was “nothing but God” before creation.


What advantage does your interpretation and theory have over early Judeo-Christian interpretation that God created material things out of matter? Do you have any reason why your personal interpretation should take precedent over the ancient Judeo-Christian interpretation?

Clear
ειφιφυδρνεω

74x12 said:

In the book of John it's pretty obvious that the author is saying that Jesus is God.

John 1:1 makes that much easily clear. The Word was with God and the Word was God.

Jewish authorship:
The arguments from Arianism that this is speaking of "a" god are flawed for a few reasons. First of all the author is a Jew and that's not a Jewish idea. The author is obviously familiar with the Torah and it's commandments. Including "Hear oh Israel Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah." And "Thou shalt have no other elohim before me."

So the concept of two gods is against Judaism and it's silly to think that the Jewish author of John would be promoting the worship of two gods.

Influence from Greek philosophy?
Jewish authorship also casts serious doubt on such ideas as that the author is speaking of the so called "divine logos" of Greek philosophy. If the author is a Jew then what does he have to do with Greek philosophy? So if the author's views on the "Word" can be explained without resorting to Greek philosophy and instead by resorting to Jewish literal; especially the Torah and Tanakh. Then that is what should be done rather than assuming the author is influenced by foreign(gentile, pagan) philosophy.

So in understanding the "Word" that was made flesh we should look to 1st century Jewish ideas of the Word of God.

Context:
Secondly, if the author is really promoting the worship of two gods then we should be able to actually see that in the context. Meaning why would the author just stop with a statement like "The Word was with God and the Word was "a" God"? Especially since this can more easily be translated as "The Word was with God and the Word was God".

Therefore Arianists need more proof to show John actually meant to be speaking of two gods rather than one.

This proof they do not have. In fact when we compare John 10:30 with John 1:1 we see an obvious link. Meaning that the author here is showing us exactly how he views the relationship of the Word with God. Jesus is essentially the Word made flesh, but somehow He is "one" with the Father.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)

The truth:
The Jewish concept of "the truth" is that God(Jehovah) is the God of truth. Essentially the truth is God. So when Jesus claims to be " the way, the truth, and the life" It's a claim of divinity. And we further see this in the book of John when Jesus speaks of the "Spirit of truth" that "proceeds from the Father" who they(his disciples) know because He "dwells with them". See: John 14:17, John 15:26, John 16:13. So Jesus is basically claiming here that He is the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father (Obviously indwelling human flesh). According to Jesus (in the book of John) He (the Spirit of truth/Jesus) is with them but will be in them. So Jesus says "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." (John 14:18)

This is further collaborated in other Jewish writings such as 1st Esdras chapter 4:35-41. God is the "God of truth" and "Great is the Truth and mighty above all things".

The Father revealed in the flesh:
The author of John also makes it kind of obvious that Jesus is claiming to be God revealed in the flesh when Jesus says "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" This was in reply to Philip asking Jesus to "show us the Father". (John 14:8-9)

So Jesus the Son of God is "The Word of God" and "the Truth". This is how the Son declares the God that no one can see. (John 1:18) He declares Him just by being. Because He is the "Truth" and the "Word made flesh". In other words, Jesus is all of God that can be seen.

Looking at other writings attributed to John we find that in 1 John 3:1-6 that John makes no distinction between the Father and the Son. But speaks of them as One.

1 John 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

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GINOLJC, to all.
Addressing the OP only, good topic. not having read all the posts. John's gospel in the opeaner is very compelling. consider this, "WHO MADE ALL THINGS?" , John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." this is the Lord Jesus right. now this, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" there is only one MAKER. and the maker here in Isaiah said that he was "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF". meaning he didn't go through anyone, and no one was with him.


but John 1:1b can answer that, "and the Word was with God".

PICJAG.

URAVIP2ME said:

I find at John 1:1 that the Word (pre-human Jesus ) was ''WITH" God.....
A person is Not 'with' himself but 'with' another, thus the Word was God as in the Word was divine.
This is why John could say at Revelation 19:13 Jesus is the Word of God. (God's spokesman)
John 1:2 lets us know pre-human Jesus was "WITH" God
Jesus was "IN" the beginning "WITH" God, never "WITH" God "BEFORE" the beginning.-Psalms 90:2
According to gospel writer Luke Jesus did NOT resurrect himself :
Acts of the Apostles 2:24
Acts of the Apostles 2:34
Acts of the Apostles 3:15
Acts of the Apostles 5:30

Also, Romans 10:9
Colossians 2:12
Galatians 1:1
Ephesians 1:20 God set Jesus at his own right hand.
Close to his God is where Jesus is located as per Revelation 3:21.
One person does Not occupy two (2) thrones.
I find resurrected-to-heaven Jesus does Not appear in front of himself according to Hebrews 9:24.
Plus, the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12
Any thoughts about Psalms 89:26-27__________________ ( No David is Not God's first born )

Click to expand...

No offense but you're more or less repeating previous arguments. I think I've answered these points before.

The Word can be "with" God as in the manifestation of the Father was kept secret from the world and reserved with God until the time of his advent into the world.

This is what is being alluded to in Genesis 1:4 when God "divided" the light from the darkness. That is God kept the "light" (which is Jesus) with himself and separate from the world until the time when he would come.

This idea is seen in 1 Peter 1:19-20 where we find that Jesus was indeed foreordained before the foundation of the world; but only finally revealed in these last times "for you".

So the "Word" that was with God was this word "Let there be Light" and then it was separated from the world until the appointed time of it's revealing. Then as it is written:

Matthew 4:14-16
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

And so we read what John says about the Father's manifestation in the world.

1 John 3:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

So the darkness that is over everyone in the world is the "shadow of death" and Jesus "the resurrection" is the "Light of Life" or "the Word of Life" (1 John 1:1) that is the commandment of the Father recorded in Psalm 133:3.

As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore. (Psalm 133:3)

This is why Jesus is called the Word of Life. He is the Word that was hidden with the Father and only revealed through the cross. Because he speaks through resurrection. This is the commandment of God that he would rise from the dead and through him; he may raise anyone who believes in him. (John 11:25)

So it's not because Jesus is a "spokesman". God has plenty of prophets and angelic messengers. Jesus Himself is the Word of Life literally as it is written "the Word was made flesh".

As for Psalm 89:26-27; Jesus is made firstborn through the resurrection. This is when Jesus is indeed made firstborn from the dead. (Col. 1:18)

This is indeed Jesus who is also called "David" and the "sure mercies of David" is the resurrection from the dead. (Isaiah 55:3, Acts 13:33)

This mercy is sure(certain) because Jesus is sure. He is the "tried stone, the precious cornerstone a sure foundation".

That is the stone that you can build on unlike the unstable sand; because if you build on eternal foundations then your house will never fall. And so whoever truly trusts in Jesus will not fall but will inherit eternal life. Because he's already done it and already inherited it. and yes he prevailed as it is written that the lion of the tribe of Judah prevailed.

And you say he did not raise himself but no scripture says so. You only point to scriptures which say that the Father raised Jesus. Well there is no disagreement there. Jesus and the Father are one and the same.

Jesus is the "Word of Life" and so there is no other Word that will raise anyone to life other than that. Yes the Father raised Him because He was breathed out and came forth from God. (John 16:28) Whatever God speaks is true and will come to pass. That's how Jesus overcomes the grave because He is the Word of God that cannot fail.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

John 16:28
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

God's breath/Word always returns to him again when it has accomplished his will and that's because God is not a mortal that breathes only air. The breath of God is eternal like himself and so always returns and is God.This is why Jesus is God and breathed out by God and returns again to God. And no one believes His Words unless it is given to them from above.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

GINOLJC,to all.

74x12 said:

This is what is being alluded to in Genesis 1:4 when God "divided" the light from the darkness. That is God kept the "light" (which is Jesus) with himself and separate from the world until the time when he would come.

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we agree this assessment, for the "Light" here is not natural light, but the Wisdom that was hidden from the foundation of the world.

74x12 said:

This idea is seen in 1 Peter 1:19-20 where we find that Jesus was indeed foreordained before the foundation of the world; but only finally revealed in these last times "for you".

So the "Word" that was with God was this word "Let there be Light" and then it was separated from the world until the appointed time of it's revealing. Then as it is written:

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not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. backup to 1 Peter 1:10 & 11, "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:"
1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
HOLD IT, christ, the flesh was not in the OT, but the Spirit was, notice the capitalization in Spirit. understand, the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is JESUS the Christ, is the only ONE God, because God is a Spirit, (John 4:24a). but notice, the apostle Peter said, he, the Spirit of Christ was in, in, in, the Prophets in the OT. so clearly it was JESUS who was in the OT Prophets.

also the "WORD", which is Christ, is the "KNOWLEDGE" and the "UNDERSTANGING" of God in Flesh. other words the "walking and talking "WISDOM" made manfested as the apostle Peter said, "was manifest in these last times for you", verse 20. other words "GOD IN FLESH".

PICJAG.

101G said:

GINOLJC,to all.

we agree this assessment, for the "Light" here is not natural light, but the Wisdom that was hidden from the foundation of the world.

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. backup to 1 Peter 1:10 & 11, "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:"
1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
HOLD IT, christ, the flesh was not in the OT, but the Spirit was, notice the capitalization in Spirit. understand, the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is JESUS the Christ, is the only ONE God, because God is a Spirit, (John 4:24a). but notice, the apostle Peter said, he, the Spirit of Christ was in, in, in, the Prophets in the OT. so clearly it was JESUS who was in the OT Prophets.

also the "WORD", which is Christ, is the "KNOWLEDGE" and the "UNDERSTANGING" of God in Flesh. other words the "walking and talking "WISDOM" made manfested as the apostle Peter said, "was manifest in these last times for you", verse 20. other words "GOD IN FLESH".

PICJAG.

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Good points really. Yes the Light is the Light of God. As it says "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all".

So when God says "Let there be Light" He means in the darkened world. Not that the Light is created; rather just appearing in the darkness. Which is as you say; God manifest.

Clear said:

1) THE THEORY THAT NOTHING BUT GOD EXISTED BEFORE GOD CREATED THIS EARTH / PLANETS AND STARS
@URAVIP2ME interpreted Psalms 90:2 as meaning “…God existed ' before ' the beginning of anything else.” (post #641). @74x12 agreed saying : “…Yes only God was before the beginning….” (post #647)

Clear asked : Why would the condition of an everlasting God mean that other things did not also exist?
For example, What would God have made material worlds from if not from matter that also existed and with which he created material things (post #648)

URAVIP2ME said : “Nothing created God. God was ' before ' any creation - Psalms 90:2”

The assumption that “nothing created God” does not mean there was nothing before God started this creation.. Why do you assume that there was “nothing” before the creation of the earth and planets? What would God have made material things with, if not with matter?


2) THE ANCIENT INTERPRETATION OF CREATION OUT OF "MATTER" VERSUS THE INTERPRETATION OF CREATION FROM "ENERGY".
URAVIP2ME offers us his interpretation of scripture, saying : “Scripture does Not teach that God used material matter to create the visible world.”

If your personal interpretation of scripture has God using something other than material to create material things, what does your interpretation have God using to create material things? Can you be specific? For example, you say “God used …His great "Power and Strength" ( His abundant dynamic energy ) to create the material realm.”

Are you referring to matter existing in a different form, such as Einsteins theory that E=mc2 in referring to matter (mass) in a different form (energy)?

For example the ancient Judeo-Christian interpretation that God used matter in it’s base and chaotic form to create organized material things (like planets) seems more rational and logical than your interpretation. What advantage does your theory have over the earlier Judeo-Christian interpretation of scripture where they interpreted the scriptures to mean God created material things out of matter?


3) THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT SUPPORT THE THEORY THAT NOTHING BUT GOD EXISTED BEFORE GOD CREATED THE OBJECTS IN BIBLICAL GENESIS

The four scriptures you referenced do not support your theory.

Isaiah 40:26 simply says God “created these things”, it does not tell us there was “nothing but God” before creation nor does it say things were created out of pure energy.

You quoted Jeremiah 10:12 But this simply describes God “made the earth “by his power”. It does not tell us the earth is created OF power, simply that God used his ability and power to make the earth. A builder can claim that he builds a house “by his own power and wisdom” but no one assumes it is made of cosmic energy, but rather it is assumed the builder used wood and bricks and mortar. Neither does this verse say there was “nothing but God” before creation.

You quoted Jeremiah 32:17 but this simply tells us the same thing (God created…) Like the other verses, it does not support your claim that there was “nothing but God’ before creation.

Finally, you quoted Psalms 104:30, but again, this verse simply tells us things “are created” but does not support your claim that there was “nothing but God” before creation.


What advantage does your interpretation and theory have over early Judeo-Christian interpretation that God created material things out of matter? Do you have any reason why your personal interpretation should take precedent over the ancient Judeo-Christian interpretation?

Clear
ειφιφυδρνεω

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Interesting ... I personally believe God called everything out of the primordial sea which is called the abyss or chaos.

The Word of God brings order to the chaos; creating the orderly universe. Whatever is not upheld by the Word (Hebrews 1:3) is chaotic and unstable.

74x12 said:

Good points really. Yes the Light is the Light of God. As it says "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all".

So when God says "Let there be Light" He means in the darkened world. Not that the Light is created; rather just appearing in the darkness. Which is as you say; God manifest.

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I think it IS talking about real light. It's a story of creation. Why wouldnt it be talking about that? I think sometimes we try to examine every little piece of scripture into our own terms without looking at the big picture of the chapter or book.